Small arms and Light Weapons

[Suryavanshi]

From one of the shots in the R&D video it seems like they are mainly using 70 series Aluminum.

I was once SSS simp and I was BTFO when It was proven that they were passing off the shelf maal as their own.
I would still simp for them tho, this company has HAAS equipment they are even more costly than the German Counterparts. Certainly they have big things in mind if they are going this far, hope they get their shit together.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

The OFB R2 rifle is based more on the INSAS MK1C rather than the Ghatak. Also, share a picture or sauce of the OFB R2 with the same muzzle brake as the Sig 716

Not OFB R-2 but the 7.62*51 mm rifle they showcased has similar muzzle break as Sig-716.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Wonder if they’ll attempt to make a JVPC with a Milled Receiver.

probably not, it already went through all trials, there does not seem to be any need for such design revision, but if done then it would work yeah - probably increasing its mass-weight about 300-400 grams more though

although it DID have AK-styled construction prior to current two-section receiver build i.e. this,

apparently this cover of some russian/ukrainian defense magazine is one of the few high definition photos of original MSMC out there

anyways here, note the typical AK-styled top cover and single piece receiver build, clearly from INSAS i believe; had bumped section on trigger side, INSAS styled flat profile bolt carrier, INSAS style sights and that top cover locking button or pin or some arrangement at end

aanndd IT ALSO HAD GAS CUT OFF LEVER ON ITS GAS BLOCK, STRAIGHT FROM INSAS!

DID THEY HAVE IDEA OF LAUNCHING RIFLE GRENADES FROM THEN MSMC OR WHAT ?!
also, bottom bayonet mount was from INSAS but for what purpose was that top mount thing ?!

coming back to receiver, it seems the visible polymer part was a just a big single-piece enclosure plus structure made of injection moulding or whatever, for giving it required shape of a uzi-styled weapon, also housed that retractable buttstock

later they seemed to have revised this design - instead of big tavor-styled open guard on pistol grip (for operating it in cold environment with those mittens) they replaced entire polymer enclosure+structure with newer one, now having a smaller trigger guard only covering trigger finger (probably it detached and hinged down along with pistol grip like in AR-15 or so for operating it in cold environments etc), finally they also revised pistol grip (new shape plus dotted pattern on it for probably better gripping) and extending from handguards, a set of polymer protective ears around...metallic protective ears of the front iron sight post ? probably to cover gas port to prevent shooter's fingers-thumbs etc touching there and getting burned...

(sidenote, remember i mentioned sirji himself mentioned it that he had trialed MSMC//JVPC and complained about how butt was hitting on the face of shooter plus one could literally pull it out of the weapon etc ? this pics are from same post on Shatrujeet Facebook post on it)

at the end we got our well known version of MSMC later named JVPC which got a complete revision - now has two-sections receiver design plus revised polymer enclosure+structure AANND GAS CUT-OFF HAS BEEN REMOVED as well as top mount just above bayonet mount is also gone, among other differences (i have mentioned more than enough, you guys now point out differences on yourselves *phew*)

so there you have it, MSMC and JVPC designs thorough the history

 

[Lonewarrior]

Fun facts, in case anyone is interested

JVPC despite being a PDW, is as chonky as a SCAR-H
ASMI despite being a machine pistol, is as chonky as a SCAR-L

Now that's how we show a middle finger to an English jargon called एरगोनोमिक्स
Go suck it ergonomic

 

[Whitecollar]

Wonder if they’ll attempt to make a JVPC with a Milled Receiver.

By design and weight factor, I think it's better off being stamped. I'm rather interested in seeing an integrally suppressed version of it with subsonic ammo. I wonder if OFB ever made subsonic version of 5.56x30.

 

[MisraZ]

By design and weight factor, I think it's better off being stamped. I'm rather interested in seeing an integrally suppressed version of it with subsonic ammo. I wonder if OFB ever made subsonic version of 5.56x30.

What will be use of such a round? I'm saying from a lethality perspective. PDW calibres have less lethality than 9mm and higher penetration due to muzzle velocity . Now if you make it subsonic what will be it's advantage over say a 9mm subsonic?

 

[Whitecollar]

What will be use of such a round? I'm saying from a lethality perspective. PDW calibres have less lethality than 9mm and higher penetration due to muzzle velocity . Now if you make it subsonic what will be it's advantage over say a 9mm subsonic?

Subsonics have lower muzzle velocity, lesser penetration, lesser stopping power for sure. But the bullet itself is made heavier compared to it's supersonic version so that it retains energy till whatever distance it travels to.
Secondly, integrally suppressed loadout will majorly be used as special covert ops where target is unaware of your presence so operator can take the shot on whicever part of body he likes. This, as you may have imagined, will be done at much lesser engagement distance compared to an operator shooting supersonics on vanilla JVPC. Couple that with NVGs and some nice precision optics, you won't even need to sweat. Another thing is, subsonics produce lesser muzzle flash so NVG operators's eyesights won't hurt much. So when you are sure about what you need to do, you choose your shots likewise with certainity.

Thirdly, it's not that the subsonic bullet won't have enough penetration to penetrate thru wooden doors(if at all RR goes for surprise piggy hunt carrying JVPCs in some terrorist hideout) or even thin metallic doors. It's about distance that bullet is shot from which you can control at that situation. So operator can take shelter behind the wall, extend arm to aim for the door and just fire in auto.

Lastly, JVPC can be fired full auto mode. If engagement distance is upto your convenience and JVPC's lethality's G spot, then no amount of body armor will save the person infront.

 

[MisraZ]

Subsonics have lower muzzle velocity, lesser penetration, lesser stopping power for sure. But the bullet itself is made heavier compared to it's supersonic version so that it retains energy till whatever distance it travels to.
Secondly, integrally suppressed loadout will majorly be used as special covert ops where target is unaware of your presence so operator can take the shot on whicever part of body he likes. This, as you may have imagined, will be done at much lesser engagement distance compared to an operator shooting supersonics on vanilla JVPC. Couple that with NVGs and some nice precision optics, you won't even need to sweat. Another thing is, subsonics produce lesser muzzle flash so NVG operators's eyesights won't hurt much. So when you are sure about what you need to do, you choose your shots likewise with certainity.

Thirdly, it's not that the subsonic bullet won't have enough penetration to penetrate thru wooden doors(if at all RR goes for surprise piggy hunt carrying JVPCs in some terrorist hideout) or even thin metallic doors. It's about distance that bullet is shot from which you can control at that situation. So operator can take shelter behind the wall, extend arm to aim for the door and just fire in auto.

Lastly, JVPC can be fired full auto mode. If engagement distance is upto your convenience and JVPC's lethality's G spot, then no amount of body armor will save the person infront.

What advantages will it have over mp5sd series that we already have?

PDW has its own role and for that 5.56x30mm supersonic round is fine. But why try to introduce a subsonic round that doesn't provide much merit, unless you try to phase out 9mm completely in favor of 5.56x 30minsas?

 

[Lonewarrior]

Subsonics have lower muzzle velocity, lesser penetration, lesser stopping power for sure. But the bullet itself is made heavier compared to it's supersonic version so that it retains energy till whatever distance it travels to.
Secondly, integrally suppressed loadout will majorly be used as special covert ops where target is unaware of your presence so operator can take the shot on whicever part of body he likes. This, as you may have imagined, will be done at much lesser engagement distance compared to an operator shooting supersonics on vanilla JVPC. Couple that with NVGs and some nice precision optics, you won't even need to sweat. Another thing is, subsonics produce lesser muzzle flash so NVG operators's eyesights won't hurt much. So when you are sure about what you need to do, you choose your shots likewise with certainity.

Thirdly, it's not that the subsonic bullet won't have enough penetration to penetrate thru wooden doors(if at all RR goes for surprise piggy hunt carrying JVPCs in some terrorist hideout) or even thin metallic doors. It's about distance that bullet is shot from which you can control at that situation. So operator can take shelter behind the wall, extend arm to aim for the door and just fire in auto.

Lastly, JVPC can be fired full auto mode. If engagement distance is upto your convenience and JVPC's lethality's G spot, then no amount of body armor will save the person infront.

Okkaayy...let's come back to the drawing board.
What the heck is a PDW?
And trust me, answer of this question has lesser points than you mentioned.

First; the only criteria that almost all the PDWs are designed around is "...must penetrate the titanium armour insert of Russian para-troopers..." PERIOD, nothing more nothing less.

This concept was formalized by NATO that someday VDV or Spetznaz will para-drop behind the front lines and start engaging rear echelon troops like drivers and arty crews. Those rear echelon troops can't be issued M-16 as those will hinder there operation and those can't be issued MP-5 as 9mm won't penetrate titanium armour...so...let's develope PDW. P90, MP7 all were product of this theory.

Second; VIP protection agencies "speculated" on the basis of black market arms proliferation that the next attacker will be wearing bullet proof vest.

But in mere a decade everyone realised it's a bullshit. The thing designed to be the best of both the worlds is not even better that one.
People developed gas operated SMGs to properly cycle +P+ 9mm loads and SBRs short enough to be comparable to a MP-5. New rounds like .300 Blk were also developed and soon the whole concept of PDW became obsolete. Almost all major armies got rid of them and only a handful VIP protection agencies use them.

Now coming to everyone point you mentioned about SFs...well SFs were to one to chop a G3 up to MP5K length...so I guess it would be enough to understand what the need.

The only fact is that we're moving towards the PDW when the concept itself has turned obsolete. That's it. Don't try to find new uses.

 

[binayak95]

Okkaayy...let's come back to the drawing board.
What the heck is a PDW?
And trust me, answer of this question question has less points than you mentioned.

First; the only criteria that almost all the PDWs are designed around is "...must penetrate the titanium armour insert of Russian paratroopers..." PERIOD, nothing more nothing less.

This concept was formalized by NATO that someday VDV or Spetznaz will para drop behind front lines and start engaging rear echelon troops like drivers and arty crews. Those rear echelon troops can't be issued M-16 as those will hinder there operation and those can't be issued MP-5 as 9mm won't penetrate titanium armour...so...let's develope PDW. P90, MP7 all were product of this theory.

Second; VIP protection agencies "speculated" on the basis of black market arms proliferation that the next attacker will be wearing bullet proof vest.

But in mere a decade everyone realised it's a bullshit. The thing designed to be the best of both the worlds is not even better that one.
People developed gas operated SMGs to properly cycle +P+ 9mm loads and SBRs short enough to be comparable to a MP-5. New rounds like .300 Blk were also developed and soon the whole concept of PDW became obsolete. Almost all major armies got rid of them and only a handful VIP protection agencies use them.

Now coming to everyone point you mentioned about SFs...well SFs were to one to chop a G3 up to MP5K length...so I guess it would be enough to understand what the need.

The only fact is that we're moving towards the PDW when the concept itself has turned obsolete. That's it. Don't try to find new uses.

BEST case for a PDW type weapon is vehicular crews. Tank crews, Helicopter crews and the like. You know, folk who traditionally carried Mp5s or Grease Guns (for the Americans)

But even then, why not SBRs?

 

[Lonewarrior]

But even then, why not SBRs?

Exactly, that's what I said.
If I can get way better performance than a PDW in the same package, in the same calibre, in the same manual of arms, in same logistical and maintenance system...then why should I get a PDW??

A purpose made PDW using proprietary ammunition vs "regular assault rifle with shorter barrel"

 

[binayak95]

Exactly, that's what I said.
If I can get way better performance than a PDW in the same package, in the same calibre, in the same manual of arms, in same logistical and maintenance system...then why should I get a PDW??

A purpose made PDW using proprietary ammunition vs "regular assault rifle with shorter barrel"
View attachment 178061

The only PDW that makes sense to me is the P90, and thats because it has a Bullpup configuration and thus a longer barrel that can punch through armour at a distance
(and the 50 round magazine is such a game changer)

Following that logic best gun for tight spaces would be a bullpup 5.56 with a shorter barrel - oh wait thats the X95.

 

[Whitecollar]

Okkaayy...let's come back to the drawing board.
What the heck is a PDW?
And trust me, answer of this question has lesser points than you mentioned.

First; the only criteria that almost all the PDWs are designed around is "...must penetrate the titanium armour insert of Russian para-troopers..." PERIOD, nothing more nothing less.

This concept was formalized by NATO that someday VDV or Spetznaz will para-drop behind the front lines and start engaging rear echelon troops like drivers and arty crews. Those rear echelon troops can't be issued M-16 as those will hinder there operation and those can't be issued MP-5 as 9mm won't penetrate titanium armour...so...let's develope PDW. P90, MP7 all were product of this theory.

Second; VIP protection agencies "speculated" on the basis of black market arms proliferation that the next attacker will be wearing bullet proof vest.

But in mere a decade everyone realised it's a bullshit. The thing designed to be the best of both the worlds is not even better that one.
People developed gas operated SMGs to properly cycle +P+ 9mm loads and SBRs short enough to be comparable to a MP-5. New rounds like .300 Blk were also developed and soon the whole concept of PDW became obsolete. Almost all major armies got rid of them and only a handful VIP protection agencies use them.

Now coming to everyone point you mentioned about SFs...well SFs were to one to chop a G3 up to MP5K length...so I guess it would be enough to understand what the need.

The only fact is that we're moving towards the PDW when the concept itself has turned obsolete. That's it. Don't try to find new uses.

There's another point too. A lot of tax payer's money has gone into developing the JVPC which hasn't really given dividents looking at the order books till date. So if at all you have a PDW in hand which has been rather passed(sun trial, pluto trial, etc) by IA themselves, why not capitalize and build a few more variants around it that can arm the SFs too? We're looking at a long stay single platform for CQB that too homemade and mostly indegenized so spare parts, ammo, etc are readily available even if we get sanctioned to hell. We could easily pass 20 years with Indians being over proud of our forces using Desi weapons again and a good ROI of taxes in return.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

Exactly, that's what I said.
If I can get way better performance than a PDW in the same package, in the same calibre, in the same manual of arms, in same logistical and maintenance system...then why should I get a PDW??

A purpose made PDW using proprietary ammunition vs "regular assault rifle with shorter barrel"
View attachment 178061

Mp7 is such a beautiful gun I have a question if h&k has problems selling its guns cause we will use it in Kashmir they why didn't they have problems with selling them to other countries? Us used them I think Pakistanis had some maybe I am wrong

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Could anyone here answer my question?

 

[Lonewarrior]

There's another point too. A lot of tax payer's money has gone into developing the JVPC which hasn't really given dividents looking at the order books till date. So if at all you have a PDW in hand which has been rather passed(sun trial, pluto trial, etc) by IA themselves, why not capitalize and build a few more variants around it that can arm the SFs too? We're looking at a long stay single platform for CQB that too homemade and mostly indegenized so spare parts, ammo, etc are readily available even if we get sanctioned to hell. We could easily pass 20 years with Indians being over proud of our forces using Desi weapons again and a good ROI of taxes in return.

Just because of this attitude...indigenous, tax payers money, why anything other...a marvelous thing was shoved down armed force's throats.

It was called something like IMSAS or INSA or something. Can't recall the name

 

[Lonewarrior]

Could anyone here answer my question?

Yes.
Many have tried to move away from the stamped construction of MAG as it's both heavy and also a pain in the butt to manufacture.
The best example is of Barrett M240L where instead of stamping two sides are milled separately and then welded together.

Fun fact : This LMG from OFB is an IPR violation of the patent of Barrett.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Exactly, that's what I said.
If I can get way better performance than a PDW in the same package, in the same calibre, in the same manual of arms, in same logistical and maintenance system...then why should I get a PDW??

A purpose made PDW using proprietary ammunition vs "regular assault rifle with shorter barrel"
View attachment 178061

Rifle on the right has proprietary ammunition too "300 blk". With 5.56 anything below 10.5 inches is really not that good.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Fun facts, in case anyone is interested

JVPC despite being a PDW, is as chonky as a SCAR-H
ASMI despite being a machine pistol, is as chonky as a SCAR-L

Now that's how we show a middle finger to an English jargon called एरगोनोमिक्स
Go suck it ergonomic

Its like making them Ugly is a design criteria.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Rifle on the right has proprietary ammunition too "300 blk". With 5.56 anything below 10.5 inches is really not that good.

Definitely a proprietary ammunition and I've also mentioned it

New rounds like .300 Blk were also developed

But a proprietary ammunition that can use existing magazine, existing bolt group and every other thing except barrel and gas system seems like a fair deal in front of PDWs.

Obviously anything below 10.5" will leave the full potential of the round unexploited as 5.56x45mm was developed to be the pinnacle of SCHV cartridge...but don't forget we have heavier subsonic loads too for 5.56. Some even heavier than 100 grains.