Small arms and Light Weapons

[NoobWannaLearn]

that we can bag contracts from MoD

For that you need to pass mars moon and sun trials you sure you can do that?

 

[Lonewarrior]

For that you need to pass mars moon and sun trials you sure you can do that?

As long as you give MoD even a single reason to fail you...it's more or less your fault.

Let's take a simple example
In the competition for VSHORAD there were two competitors, Igla (Ruski) and RBS70 (Sweden). When we decided to select Igla, the Swedish were so confident about their product that they were ready to engage us in a legal action.

Ask yourself, is any Indian firm so confident about their product?
And if not, then why?

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

As long as you give MoD even a single reason to fail you...it's more or less your fault.

Let's take a simple example
In the competition for VSHORAD there were two competitors, Igla (Ruski) and RBS70 (Sweden). When we decided to select Igla, the Swedish were so confident about their product that they were ready to engage us in a legal action.

Ask yourself, is any Indian firm so confident about their product?
And if not, then why?

I do agree but curroption does happen in trials and my reply was sarcasm lol

 

[Johny_Baba]

Do you know how come stamped receiver ghataks and Insas have absolute shit metal parts and Tar has almost similar quality as that of a Bulgarian Ak?I dont think being a stamped steel weapon is the issue as Russian Aks are whole lot another level in therms of fit finish and durability.

of course i get it,
from my side, a little bit of historical perspective over entire thing,

steel stamping was something that even ruskies themselves struggeled to get some grip over, the very reason very first AK-47s were stamped sheet metal receiver ones (now colloquially called "Type-1" AK-47) but mass manufacturing of same was found to be full of challenges - as rate of rejection of parts and even in worst cases finished rifles themselves was high...they barely could make it for two some years and had to redesign it to milled receiver AK-47 "Type-2" and later simplifying it a bit "Type-3",
these Type 2 and Type 3 AK-47s consisted most of the original AK-47
Chinese Type-56 originally was also milled receiver AK, copied from Type-3 AK-47

AK-47 'Type-1', production happened from 1949 to 1951-52

AK-47 'Type-2', production spanned from 1951-52 to 1957 maybe

AK-47 'Type-3', Production spanned from 1955 to maybe 1959 when AKM 'Type-4' Finally arrived

Chinese Type-56 early one with milled receiver build, derived from AK-47 'Type-3'

while they were doing all this, they ;appointed; (=forced) designer of the Sturmgewehr-44 and other german assault rifles of WW2 era, Hugo Schmeisser himself, in Izhevsk plant for probably resolving issues they were facing with stamped sheet metal manufacturing and also other stuff (It is a common misconception that AK-47 was copied from Stg-44, they are barely related if at all) - though there is little to no official info about it and it's all speculations but i believe so, he worked there till 1952 and later allowed to return to Germany as his health was going down-being unable to work anymore etc...died later in next year
but it still took some years to ruskies-soviets to get things right with stamped sheet metal mass manufacturing and around 1959 they brought AKM - m for modernised, which was a proper stamped sheet metal receiver AK

So coming back to INSAS-Ghaatak etc, i believe our guys just faced similar issues that they further complicated with their sort of hurried mass manufacturing (overlooking at QC-QA tasks and ghaplaa in sourcing raw materials and what not)
then there is this stupidity of using rivets to affix bolt carrier rails with the receiver

yeah like, let's put more holes in straight line on a stamped receiver and use rivets to affix a strip of metal acting as a rail that guides a relatively heavy bolt carrier , doing it on both sides
and as if it wasn't enough, let's make ejector piece - a blade of metal sheet that pushes rounds outside when bolt carrier is cycling - a separate piece and also use rivets to fix it on the rifle
^i know the intentions here something like, making it 'serviceable' at armorer level reee' yada yada but it was damn unnecessary overengineering here like don't they already heat-treat their ejector and bolt carrier rails enough ? and even if some deformity starts happening they can always use hammer to strike it back in shape

This idea was taken from FNC but even fugging belgians only made ejector a separate piece affixed using rivets, otherwise bolt carrier rails on FNC were spot-welded,
and AKM or other stamped receiver AKs almost always spot-weld them together

so yeah your point is valid sir that Stamped Sheet Metal Receiver = / = always bad,
but the way you buld entire thing also matters, no ?

Guess they FINALLY learned their lessons and with JVPC they started spot-welding internal rails instead of going usual rivet ways - makes me think they never had anything against a simple procedure like spot-welding just did it because ;ahem; they also made MAG 58 MMG using riveted parts inside, BUT in MAG 58 the amount of thickness of metal sheets used is much more than what is there on INSAS, it works there - not so much here ('specially when other mentioned things are involved)

There was some youtube comment i read under a video from Sandeep Unnithan, where a person mentioned he was in service for 12 some years, used INSAS extensively, and he complained that build quality was not so good, that 'usme se rivets neeche gir jaate they'
initially i found it so unbelievable like what would even be stressing on those rivets this much that it falls off or something...maybe he was referring to cross-pins used for trigger and so ?
but more i learned more i think perhaps he was correct...there was no need for this much rivets to start with

Anyways, Bulgarian AKs, otoh, have always been milled receiver ones based on AK-47 'Type-3' thanks to design and 'data package' they received being in Warsaw Pact, and they perhaps kept continuing same because 'if it works why bother changing it ?'
fast forward even this day all Arsenal Inc. AKs are milled receiver only, and likewise when they copied AR-M1F to build Trichy it got copied over there - and you observe similar performances

Edit - i just realised this is second time i'm writing about it here on DFI, first time it was on Ghaatak's thread itself,
quoting it here just in case

Yeah it's practically INSAS in 7.62x39mm plus AK-style configuration (presumably East German MPi-KM-72), built with stamped sheet metal receiver thus making it somewhat lighter than mostly milled receiver Bulgarian Arsenal AKs.
As for metallurgy or build quality OFB fellas just decided to continue using rivets for affixing those bolt carrier rails inside the receiver, taken straightly from INSAS. This works ok unless rivets become loose and so due to aging-abuse etc.
On almost all stamped sheet metal receiver AKs they mostly just spot-weld those bolt carrier rails, even soviets did so when AKM came.

bolt carrier rails for a kalashnikov, top one's for left side, bottom one's for right side of the receiver
View attachment 85178

after proper alignment, they are spot-welded using a spot welder, generally both rails are given 5 to 6 welds
View attachment 85180

finished job
View attachment 85179

final product, after filing off excess welds and giving it a nice finish-paint etc
View attachment 85181
View attachment 85182

But OFB prefers to go ahead with rivets when building INSAS pattern rifles (until they switched to milled receiver with Mk.1C Excalibur etc), perhaps for faster production or their POV that rivets are better than welds or some other reason.
I personally believe 'inspiration' for this came from MAG machine gun that we produce here under license, as MAG has its bolt carrier rails and other stuffs affixed using rivets inside its receiver which is clearly visible from outside too.

inside view of Canadian C6 machine gun = their licensed produced version of MAG, notice the internal bolt carrier rails are affixed using rivets etc
View attachment 85190

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Huh, Orders?

 

[Lonewarrior]

Huh, Orders?

 

[Sachinananda]

Huh, Orders?

It wasn't audible what did he say when he was asked about orders

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

Rfi is for .338 lapua Magnum or .308?

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Oops. Hope the guy recovers soon.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

Oops. Hope the guy recovers soon.

Wtf did I just watch and the guy is serious hopefully he makes it out

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

Seems like they will replace 9mm smgs with asmi in paramilitary?

 

[ManhattanProject]

View attachment 177255View attachment 177256
ARDE 5.56 NATO CQB Carbine.

This could be a very promising gun for export and domestic sales if only the manufacturers have the balls to put a better handguard and a proper telescoping side folding buttstock. The design is very good, the furniture needs to improve.

 

[ManhattanProject]

This could be a very promising gun for export and domestic sales if only the manufacturers have the balls to put a better handguard and a proper telescoping side folding buttstock. The design is very good, the furniture needs to improve.

Ahh and i forgot, remove that disgusting sling loop on the barrel, its vile.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Ahh and i forgot, remove that disgusting sling loop on the barrel, its vile.

Don't forget about STANAG mag compatibility, there is apic of it with M4 type stock though

 

[ManhattanProject]

Don't forget about STANAG mag compatibility, there is apic of it with M4 type stock though

can you post it?

 

[Lonewarrior]

Don't forget about STANAG mag compatibility, there is apic of it with M4 type stock though

Are you sure it's a STANAG mag well or simply a "faux mag well" surrounding regular paddle type nose-in-rock-back magwell?

Coz if I'm not wrong then we already had a discussion on this.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Are you sure it's a STANAG mag well or simply a "faux mag well" surrounding regular paddle type nose-in-rock-back magwell?

Coz if I'm not wrong then we already had a discussion on this.

Its a Insas mag

 

[Johny_Baba]

Are you sure it's a STANAG mag well or simply a "faux mag well" surrounding regular paddle type nose-in-rock-back magwell?

Coz if I'm not wrong then we already had a discussion on this.

Yep it wasn't STANAG it can't be, but probably i repeat again probably they did so with recent 6.8x43mm version of same which seems to be using MCIWS' push-button lock pattern magazine from AR,
though as always pic so smoll to conclude something need more info etc yada yada

if someone reading this planning to go to DefExpo ask about it to AWEIL guys please

 

[Kuldeepm952]

Are you sure it's a STANAG mag well or simply a "faux mag well" surrounding regular paddle type nose-in-rock-back magwell?

Coz if I'm not wrong then we already had a discussion on this.

I meant don't forget about STANAG magwell to be added to it to pitch it for exports
Though seriously why don't we just use STANAG nato ammo and mags on all our new 5.56 instead of continuing with INSAS ammo