Skirmishs at LOC, LAC & International Border

[Screambowl]

burnt forest and ground and positions of IA and PA most probably due to CFV in leepa valley caught on google map
Top: India
Bottom : Pak
Loc: Leepa Valley

https://www.google.com/maps/place/3...5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.3136!4d73.8981?hl=en

 

[pankaj nema]

In Kargil India used air force. Pakistanis even shot down 3 . Toll was huge. Although India took back but what if Pakistan had deployed one more division, PAF etc. Even after Indian soldiers were on top, the Pakis launched counter attack.

Let's be realistic now and not make jingoistic approaches to satisfy the egos. Let's remain to what has been discussed.

You have not read what he has posted. The PP posts and their observation post in the viewpoint both are vacated till today. And neither side allows the re-construction.


They can also do the same after 4 days. Whats the solution?
This is what CFV is all about.

In Kargil we could not out flank the enemy

Here there is No such situation

The posts that you mention are just one part of the situation

With the range of the Guns and the Mortars ; there is No problem if we shift back a little

We can still kill them

This battle is about Killing their Soldiers

You can kill them only by Firepower

Now Pakistan has been put on the defensive
They will have to always react to our moves

And that will put pressure on them in terms of Money ; Logistics cost and of course Men killed

This is why they are asking for a return to the ceasefire

But we should only Hit them Deeper and Destroy their assets
especially their Roads

The Height disadvantage is Not insurmountable ; it can be overcome by Right weapons

It is like 8 : 10 ratio ; You should see LOC videos to understand the topography

This is Not a static battle ; the tactics change ; the Aim is constant

In the Incident that you narrated we used the Range and firepower of 130 MM Guns to great effect

That is the only way to react

If we want quick results then escalate using MBRLs ; IAF and Missiles

Otherwise this is a battle of attrition

 

[SorryNotSorry]

Pound them constantly with artillery showers, and don't give them a chance to comeback or rebuild. They can't keep up in manpower, quality or expenditure even if an escalation takes place - so keep making them bleed!

 

[hit&run]

Looks like we have started using Bofors Guns

The next in escalation ladder is always the artillery. Well Done.

 

[Screambowl]

The Height disadvantage is Not insurmountable ; it can be overcome by Right weapons

It's not about height it's about who hits first and make sures that they don't get the time to retaliate. Whether dominating or not.

What happens there is if they target Ind one complex, the adjecent Indian positions start engaging from where the Pakis have opened fire. And then other paki positions also engage into it with coordinated strikes. This carries on till one stops and awaits for the right time. Or the retaliation happens in different sector.

 

[Bornubus]

Thanks a ton for such inside details.Helps one to better understand the conditions along the LOC free from the usual jingoism nd chest beating.

On the other hand, now that post "viewpoint" is empty,can't post "PP" be built again while post "Nalwa" ensures that Pakis don't get to rebuild their own.

Thanks. I always asked him such stuff and said take care on the phone whenever we talk, while he was away but neither he was ready nor did I forced him to divulge such things over the phone


There are more what we see or read in the news. Can't divulge much but enough to say that there are more than these skirmishes, CFV etc going on both side of LoC.


Now coming back to the main question if we can rebuild our damage post ? Yes and it should be rebuild as this area is sensitive to BAT actions and to maintain our LoC dominance.


But to be honest it depends on several other factors. The term 'post' is a generic term, for example post can be a simple structure and exist in a very small area having fewer troops without reinforced building material.

For example like this

Or like this destroyed Pak Post with thick outer wall

Or a 'Post' could be a big complex having several infantry troops, combat Engineers and other support Troops as well as heavy weapons including AA Guns.

Such post require lots of building material, Iron, sariya and Cement etc


So while there is no more visual dominance of En. The locations of each other Posts are permanently marked on Map with Grid location. There could be 100s of such Green and Red marks on such maps. These Green and Red markers are nothing but Posts

These Maps are kept at big Posts and local HQs.


Own Posts are marked as Green

Enemy posts are marked as Red

All the construction and repair works on posts only happen in Night so even if there is no Pak to observe the movement, Drones or scouts can be use to know the movement and general activities of the area.

Besides, Mortar is a weapon of indirect firing. But I am hoping that in a short period both sides will try to disengage each other from current hostilities just as what we saw at IB, because it's the locals who suffer badly in these skirmishes.

Felt bad when I came to know that recently Indian Troops had to help Local Gujjars to bury atleat 40 + cattles


In his words " Bhai Fauj ko 20% bhi nuksan nahin hota jitna locals ko hota he"



=========


Para SF at one such LoC "Post"

 

[aditya g]

The big takeaway from your post is about SF being stationed on posts.... i thought posts are manned only by infantry units.

Thanks. I always asked him such stuff and said take care on the phone whenever we talk, while he was away but neither he was ready nor did I forced him to divulge such things over the phone


There are more what we see or read in the news. Can't divulge much but enough to say that there are more than these skirmishes, CFV etc going on both side of LoC.


Now coming back to the main question if we can rebuild our damage post ? Yes and it should be rebuild as this area is sensitive to BAT actions and to maintain our LoC dominance.


But to be honest it depends on several other factors. The term 'post' is a generic term, for example post can be a simple structure and exist in a very small area having fewer troops without reinforced building material.

For example like this

View attachment 23515


Or like this destroyed Pak Post with thick outer wall


View attachment 23519

Or a 'Post' could be a big complex having several infantry troops, combat Engineers and other support Troops as well as heavy weapons including AA Guns.

Such post require lots of building material, Iron, sariya and Cement etc


So while there is no more visual dominance of En. The locations of each other Posts are permanently marked on Map with Grid location. There could be 100s of such Green and Red marks on such maps. These Green and Red markers are nothing but Posts

These Maps are kept at big Posts and local HQs.


Own Posts are marked as Green

Enemy posts are marked as Red


View attachment 23517



All the construction and repair works on posts only happen in Night so even if there is no Pak to observe the movement, Drones or scouts can be use to know the movement and general activities of the area.

Besides, Mortar is a weapon of indirect firing. But I am hoping that in a short period both sides will try to disengage each other from current hostilities just as what we saw at IB, because it's the locals who suffer badly in these skirmishes.

Felt bad when I came to know that recently Indian Troops had to help Local Gujjars to bury atleat 40 + cattles


In his words " Bhai Fauj ko 20% bhi nuksan nahin hota jitna locals ko hota he"



=========


Para SF at one such LoC "Post"

View attachment 23518

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Thanks. I always asked him such stuff and said take care on the phone whenever we talk, while he was away but neither he was ready nor did I forced him to divulge such things over the phone


There are more what we see or read in the news. Can't divulge much but enough to say that there are more than these skirmishes, CFV etc going on both side of LoC.


Now coming back to the main question if we can rebuild our damage post ? Yes and it should be rebuild as this area is sensitive to BAT actions and to maintain our LoC dominance.


But to be honest it depends on several other factors. The term 'post' is a generic term, for example post can be a simple structure and exist in a very small area having fewer troops without reinforced building material.

For example like this

View attachment 23515


Or like this destroyed Pak Post with thick outer wall


View attachment 23519

Or a 'Post' could be a big complex having several infantry troops, combat Engineers and other support Troops as well as heavy weapons including AA Guns.

Such post require lots of building material, Iron, sariya and Cement etc


So while there is no more visual dominance of En. The locations of each other Posts are permanently marked on Map with Grid location. There could be 100s of such Green and Red marks on such maps. These Green and Red markers are nothing but Posts

These Maps are kept at big Posts and local HQs.


Own Posts are marked as Green

Enemy posts are marked as Red


View attachment 23517



All the construction and repair works on posts only happen in Night so even if there is no Pak to observe the movement, Drones or scouts can be use to know the movement and general activities of the area.

Besides, Mortar is a weapon of indirect firing. But I am hoping that in a short period both sides will try to disengage each other from current hostilities just as what we saw at IB, because it's the locals who suffer badly in these skirmishes.

Felt bad when I came to know that recently Indian Troops had to help Local Gujjars to bury atleat 40 + cattles


In his words " Bhai Fauj ko 20% bhi nuksan nahin hota jitna locals ko hota he"



=========


Para SF at one such LoC "Post"

View attachment 23518

Yeh kya humne Sunny Deol bheja he kya saari post pe.

:biggrin2:


Great job..keep posting more info on the LOC ops.

 

[Bornubus]

Height of Chutiyapa by our media. We have been using 120mm mortars and 105mm Indian Field Guns from time to time in last 15 years. Also as @Bornubus mentioned we also used 130mm guns in September last year.

Well this is the first time I heard about the use of 130mm. While use of 155mm confirm by @hammer head bhai. 105mm LFG was used a while back in Nellum valley. That is also confirm.


Some exclusive pics of 155mm from LoC might come in future too. But the choice to use any weapon depends on several factors because for example an L 70 AA gun could do more damage than indiscriminate Artillery and Mortar shelling.


For Ex L 70 AA accurately targeting and desteoying Pak Post in 2013 without the use of Arty. The Pak truck which was drown sometimes back was targeted by own Mortars only @hammer head









=========


Pak Army accurate shelling on Indian post as claimed. Again no heavy artillery

 

[Bornubus]

The big takeaway from your post is about SF being stationed on posts.... i thought posts are manned only by infantry units.

Yeh kya humne Sunny Deol bheja he kya saari post pe.

:biggrin2:


Great job..keep posting more info on the LOC ops.

Not only Para SF but Paratroopers from Para Airborne units are also deployed on LoC


Besides 2 Para 'Predators' is doing a great job on LoC apart from 1, 4 and 9

 

[Galaxy 7]

Not only Para SF but Paratroopers from Para Airborne units are also deployed on LoC


Besides 2 Para 'Predators' is doing a great job on LoC apart from 1, 4 and 9

Is it right to leak army unit deployments in public forum?

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Not only Para SF but Paratroopers from Para Airborne units are also deployed on LoC


Besides 2 Para 'Predators' is doing a great job on LoC apart from 1, 4 and 9

Mamla gambhir he matlab....aadhi para unit toh loc pe hein!!

 

[Bornubus]

Is it right to leak army unit deployments in public forum?

No. Only if i give the details besides 4 and 9 are born to serve at LoC same way as 10 para is called Desert scorpions




Chal bhai bhut rat ho li ab kal bat karte hain

 

[Screambowl]

Pak Army accurate shelling on Indian post as claimed. Again no artillery

They seem to be well trained in contours and arty. Very accurate. Most probably learnt during Zarb e Azb.
They wouldn't need ATGMs

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

No. Only if i give the details besides 4 and 9 are born to serve at LoC same way as 10 para is called Desert scorpions

I think you can share until you are giving Arty batteries or AA batteries locations.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////

Ghanta nhi koi ukhaad sakta PARA ka..kindly give my respect and love to our brothers on the LOC.

 

[Indrajit]

That's because the 2003 ceasefire agreement though falling apart, hasn't been officially scrapped as yet.

Anyway, that Agreement is now not worth the paper it is written on.

True, except that it seems there was nothing ever written or signed.



“According to Lieutenant General (retired) DS Hooda, who was the architect of India’s 2016 surgical strikes against terror launch pads in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (POK), the agreement “has been dead for a very long time”.

Interestingly, however, the agreement was never a formally written, signed one. “Prior to 2003, the situation along the LoC and the IB was pretty bad. When the agreement was made in 2003, it was never really put down on paper. As I understand, it was a verbal agreement between the two sides. Pakistan was the one to initiate the ceasefire by asking for it and we agreed to it,” Lt. Gen. (retd.) Hooda said.”



https://www.news18.com/news/india/t...akistan-ceasefire-agreement-dead-1632311.html

 

[Screambowl]

True, except that it seems there was nothing ever written or signed.



“According to Lieutenant General (retired) DS Hooda, who was the architect of India’s 2016 surgical strikes against terror launch pads in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (POK), the agreement “has been dead for a very long time”.

Interestingly, however, the agreement was never a formally written, signed one. “Prior to 2003, the situation along the LoC and the IB was pretty bad. When the agreement was made in 2003, it was never really put down on paper. As I understand, it was a verbal agreement between the two sides. Pakistan was the one to initiate the ceasefire by asking for it and we agreed to it,” Lt. Gen. (retd.) Hooda said.”



https://www.news18.com/news/india/t...akistan-ceasefire-agreement-dead-1632311.html

This only means that if India crosses the AGPL and captures some territory, the territory would simply belong to India. As Simla agreement is only restricted to LOC not AGPL.

And even in the UN Pakistan would have no argument. But if Pakistanis manage to capture territory across AGPL on Indian side, India would have no argument.

The real fire power would have its value in Nubra and Siachen

 

[indus]

This only means that if India crosses the AGPL and captures some territory, the territory would simply belong to India. As Simla agreement is only restricted to LOC not AGPL.

And even in the UN Pakistan would have no argument. But if Pakistanis manage to capture territory across AGPL on Indian side, India would have no argument.

The real fire power would have its value in Nubra and Siachen

Agreed. But to what extent its possible to capture posts opposite Siachin. Most locations would be above 18000 ft height. Can we take up and maintain effective firepower to think of capturing territory in those areas.???
Added later: Is it feasible to think of an Op across AGPL in isolation to LoC. Wont Pak try to expand the theatre of operations.

 

[mayfair]

We already occupy all the vantage points in Siachen and we did capture one during 1999- Bilal post now renamed Navdeep top.

Are there any important vantage points in Saltoro that we should aim to capture?

 

[Mikesingh]

True, except that it seems there was nothing ever written or signed.

Interestingly, however, the agreement was never a formally written, signed one. “Prior to 2003, the situation along the LoC and the IB was pretty bad. When the agreement was made in 2003, it was never really put down on paper. As I understand, it was a verbal agreement between the two sides. Pakistan was the one to initiate the ceasefire by asking for it and we agreed to it,” Lt. Gen. (retd.) Hooda said.”

Right! Mine was just a figure of speech, meaning whatever was agreed to in principle over a tele con between the DGMO's regarding the ceasefire is worthless now.

The ceasefire agreement was not a written agreement. There are no rules, norms or principles governing the 2003 ceasefire agreement. Such a verbal agreement over a tele con without the attendant dos and don’ts cannot stand the test of time