Skirmishs at LOC, LAC & International Border

[indus]

What exactly it takes to scrap an agreement? A war most probably.

Kargil happened despite Simla agreement in place. All agreements are subject to conditions. We can have another brand new agreement post a war or skirmish with Pak.

 

[Screambowl]

India offers ceasefire in Siachen ( old article 2003)
similar situations prevails

http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/2003/11/25/stories/2003112506120100.htm

By Amit Baruah



NEW DELHI NOV. 24. India said today that it would "respond positively" to the unilateral ceasefire announcement made by the Pakistan Prime Minister, Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali, on Sunday night.

Welcoming Mr. Jamali's announcement, New Delhi, however, said that in order to establish a full ceasefire on a durable basis, there must be an end to infiltration from across the Line of Control.

In a statement, the Ministry of External Affairs spokesman said the Government of India had also proposed a ceasefire along the Actual Ground Position Line in Siachen. He welcomed the Pakistani decision to work for an expansion of the communication links proposed by India on October 22. "We now propose immediate technical-level talks for early implementation of these proposals," the statement added.

Asked whether India's desire to respond positively to the Pakistani offer meant that New Delhi too would hold its fire from Id, the spokesman responded: "I am not sure as to when what comes into effect, but we will respond positively to this..."

Providing an explanation for the phrase in the statement that India would "respond positively" to Mr. Jamali's announcement, a senior External Affairs Ministry official said that once the Pakistani ceasefire came into effect, India too would do the same. "If they stop shelling our positions on the LoC, we will do the same," the official said, hoping that covering Pakistani fire for infiltrators trying to cross the LoC would also be ended.

According to the official, the Government was clear that for the ceasefire to hold, to be durable, infiltrationl had to be ended. As far as transport links are concerned, the External Affairs Minister, Yashwant Sinha, had proposed on October 22 a new rail/bus link between Khokrapar (Sindh) and Munabao (Rajasthan), a ferry service between Mumbai and Karachi, a Srinagar-Muzaffarabad bus service, linked talks to resume the Samjhauta Express if Pakistan agreed to restoring civil aviation links and increasing the number of buses on the Delhi-Lahore route. The Ministry of External Affairs seems to believe that the litmus test of Pakistani intentions as far as communication links are concerned will be at the coming talks between officials dealing with the civil aviation on December 1-2 in New Delhi.

UNI reports:

Addressing the India Economic Summit, organised by the CII and the World Economic Forum here, the External Affairs Minister, Yashwant Sinha, said that India had responded to Pakistan's offer in a ``very very positive manner''.

``We said our troops will respond to a ceasefire along the Line of Control. In fact, we want the ceasefire to extend beyond the LoC into the glaciers of Siachen,'' he said.

 

[pankaj nema]

3000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

 

[Screambowl]

3000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

No termination of business
No termination of flight over Pakistani airspace.
No warning to foreign tourists
No reduction of high commission staff
No troops mobilization in huge like Kargil
No sea routes diversions
etc...

We are not even in escalation at all
When any one of the above happens, then it's serious escalation.

 

[indiatester]

No termination of business
No termination of flight over Pakistani airspace.
No warning to foreign tourists
No reduction of high commission staff
No troops mobilization in huge like Kargil
No sea routes diversions
etc...

We are not even in escalation at all
When any one of the above happens, then it's serious escalation.

Exactly!!! We have only escalated at all. We are only targeting the terrorist infrastructure. We are sorry for any loss of life in their armed forces (innocent only).

 

[indus]

Exactly!!! We have only escalated at all. We are only targeting the terrorist infrastructure. We are sorry for any loss of life in their armed forces (innocent only).

The narrative has changed. Pakistan is not our main enemy. Our enemy is terrorism. We are targeting terrorists and the pak positions that aid in infiltration. Its a kind of plausible deniablility that we have now, sort of which only Paks used to have before. They used to say terrorists are non state actors and Pak army/ Govt had no involvement in Mujahidin actions. We are paying back to them in same coin. Its an escalation without any escalation. :biggrin2:

 

[LETHALFORCE]

That's because the 2003 ceasefire agreement though falling apart, hasn't been officially scrapped as yet.

Anyway, that Agreement is now not worth the paper it is written on.

Has any agreement with Pakistan been sustainable?? Need to throw out Indus water treaty the worst agreement of all.

 

[Bornubus]

Just meet someone closer this evening who just came on leave today morning. Got some exclusive stuff and few incidents which needs and can be share here and elsewhere.

=======

Pak Post - Viewpoint complex

Indian Post - PP 02 and Nalwa

Date - sometimes in September 2017

Location on LoC - Upper reaches but not disclosing the exact location

========

First of all PP 02 are the name of Indian posts which are considered most sensitive on the forward LoC due to the fact that these posts are like small HQ. Other posts which are consider sensitive are called Listening posts (LP)


All these PP posts or Patrol posts are forward posts which are self sufficient in Firepower (except heavy Artillery), surveillance equipments and Underground shelters to save during En shelling.


These PP posts have at least ** Para Commandos/ Para SF always combat ready. Their task is same as Pak army SSG and BAT


Apart from Para SF these posts have enough manpower in form of Infantry, combat Engineers and other support troops and Officer. Troops on this post don't get the LRC from the HQ

============

Opposite own PP post is Pak post or rather a complex of Pak posts called Viewpoint. This viewpoint complex was also a formidable position owing to the fact it was situated at an elevated position where Pak Troops could see the movement around own PP post. Add to the height Pak army also had their own surveillance equipment and firepower.


==========

So sometimes in September 2017 things particularly escalated on this section of LoC after a BAT action was foiled here but own troops patrol was ambushed by IED by Pak SSG/ BAT.

So the order was to destroy the viewpoint which visually dominate PP. However before the assault could take place Pak army started heavy shelling on PP maybe they intercepted the message or by their own initiative.


The first attack started in the morning and the first casualty was Pinky a big stray Dog which lives on the post with troops for a long time. Another non fatal casualty was JCO who was caught in the open. A splinter pierced his stomach. He is probably medically discharged from the service now.

Own troops responded by mortars shelling from own mortar position but soon they had to find cover when Pak shells started falling near their Mortar position.

The reason of this pak shelling which was too intense and too accurate was not due to the fact that Pak army used artillery location radar but because of the location of "viewpoint" where Pak troops could provide accurate fire corrections to their Mortar crew located somewhere behind both by visual dominance and their surveillance equipments.


So own post PP took massive damage and only the underground shelters saved the lives of troops.


=======
While all this shelling was going on our own post called Nalwa could see all this. Nalwa is the only post which was situated at height although can't be compared with PP in manpower and firepower.


Notwithstanding, 'Nalwa' did targeted viewpoint complex with their AMR diverting the attention of En giving enough time to own troops reorganize. However the upper section of PP almost completely destroyed.

=======

The revenge came not much later but within 2 days when local HQ strictly ordered not only to pulveriz the "Viewpoint complex" but the area around it.


Meaning the thick vegetation around Pak posts. This is where our 130mm was used to wipeout En complex since 120mm was not enough for the size of the En Viewpoint complex.

This incident also forced Pak to file a complain in UNO over the artillery use. The Indian high commission was also called sometimes during that period in September 2017


As of today (last he heard) both Indian post PP and Pak Viewpoint is vacated and Nalwa is the only Indian Post which still stands tall in this stretch of LoC

Both sides don't allow each other to make or repair their posts unless both sides mutually agree by locals commanders or DGMO


=========


Exclusive photo of our post in lower reaches. Both side of the river is Indian territory (not related to the incident above)

 

[ThrishikJ]

According to sources we are using artillery after 15 years on LOC what is the reason for this?? Why is the pak army not backing down??
http://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/ne...-artillery-fired-along-loc-in-uri/549108.html

 

[NeXoft007]

Just enjoy the video. It's from 24th February. Don't ask the location
:biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:

 

[Shadow]

Just meet someone closer this evening who just came on leave today morning. Got some exclusive stuff and few incidents which needs and can be share here and elsewhere.

=======

Pak Post - Viewpoint complex

Indian Post - PP 02 and Nalwa

Date - sometimes in September 2017

Location on LoC - Upper reaches but not disclosing the exact location

========

First of all PP 02 are the name of Indian posts which are considered most sensitive on the forward LoC due to the fact that these posts are like small HQ. Other posts which are consider sensitive are called Listening posts (LP)


All these PP posts or Patrol posts are forward posts which are self sufficient in Firepower (except heavy Artillery), surveillance equipments and Underground shelters to save during En shelling.


These PP posts have at least ** Para Commandos/ Para SF always combat ready. Their task is same as Pak army SSG and BAT


Apart from Para SF these posts have enough manpower in form of Infantry, combat Engineers and other support troops and Officer. Troops on this post don't get the LRC from the HQ

============

Opposite own PP post is Pak post or rather a complex of Pak posts called Viewpoint. This viewpoint complex was also a formidable position owing to the fact it was situated at an elevated position where Pak Troops could see the movement around own PP post. Add to the height Pak army also had their own surveillance equipment and firepower.


==========

So sometimes in September 2017 things particularly escalated on this section of LoC after a BAT action was foiled here but own troops patrol was ambushed by IED by Pak SSG/ BAT.

So the order was to destroy the viewpoint which visually dominate PP. However before the assault could take place Pak army started heavy shelling on PP maybe they intercepted the message or by their own initiative.


The first attack started in the morning and the first casualty was Pinky a big stray Dog which lives on the post with troops for a long time. Another non fatal casualty was JCO who was caught in the open. A splinter pierced his stomach. He is probably medically discharged from the service now.

Own troops responded by mortars shelling from own mortar position but soon they had to find cover when Pak shells started falling near their Mortar position.

The reason of this pak shelling which was too intense and too accurate was not due to the fact that Pak army used artillery location radar but because of the location of "viewpoint" where Pak troops could provide accurate fire corrections to their Mortar crew located somewhere behind both by visual dominance and their surveillance equipments.


So own post PP took massive damage and only the underground shelters saved the lives of troops.


=======
While all this shelling was going on our own post called Nalwa could see all this. Nalwa is the only post which was situated at height although can't be compared with PP in manpower and firepower.


Notwithstanding, 'Nalwa' did targeted viewpoint complex with their AMR diverting the attention of En giving enough time to own troops reorganize. However the upper section of PP almost completely destroyed.

=======

The revenge came not much later but within 2 days when local HQ strictly ordered not only to pulveriz the "Viewpoint complex" but the area around it.


Meaning the thick vegetation around Pak posts. This is where our 130mm was used to wipeout En complex since 120mm was not enough for the size of the En Viewpoint complex.

This incident also forced Pak to file a complain in UNO over the artillery use. The Indian high commission was also called sometimes during that period in September 2017


As of today (last he heard) both Indian post PP and Pak Viewpoint is vacated and Nalwa is the only Indian Post which still stands tall in this stretch of LoC

Both sides don't allow each other to make or repair their posts unless both sides mutually agree by locals commanders or DGMO


=========


Exclusive photo of our post in lower reaches. Both side of the river is Indian territory (not related to the incident above)


View attachment 23504

Thanks a ton for such inside details.Helps one to better understand the conditions along the LOC free from the usual jingoism nd chest beating.

On the other hand, now that post "viewpoint" is empty,can't post "PP" be built again while post "Nalwa" ensures that Pakis don't get to rebuild their own.

 

[AMCA]

According to sources we are using artillery after 15 years on LOC what is the reason for this?? Why is the pak army not backing down??
http://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/ne...-artillery-fired-along-loc-in-uri/549108.html

Height of Chutiyapa by our media. We have been using 120mm mortars and 105mm Indian Field Guns from time to time in last 15 years. Also as @Bornubus mentioned we also used 130mm guns in September last year.

 

[pankaj nema]

According to sources we are using artillery after 15 years on LOC what is the reason for this?? Why is the pak army not backing down??
http://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/ne...-artillery-fired-along-loc-in-uri/549108.html

They will come to their senses Only when we hit them in a sustained manner for One Year on the LOC
using Heavy Artillery

This is the statement made by Army commanders as was written in the Media

However if we expand the scope of the conflict to Jammu sector and start using Air force ; they will crumble sooner rather than later

 

[ThrishikJ]

Height of Chutiyapa by our media. We have been using 120mm mortars and 105mm Indian Field Guns from time to time in last 15 years. Also as @Bornubus mentioned we also used 130mm guns in September last year.

True I got confused there coz even last yr during mltple CFV we did use atrilery pretty innovatively taking them by suprise

 

[Babloo Singh]

The narrative has changed. Pakistan is not our main enemy. Our enemy is terrorism. We are targeting terrorists and the pak positions that aid in infiltration. Its a kind of plausible deniablility that we have now, sort of which only Paks used to have before. They used to say terrorists are non state actors and Pak army/ Govt had no involvement in Mujahidin actions. We are paying back to them in same coin. Its an escalation without any escalation. :biggrin2:

We don't say there are terrorists hiding there.... UN Says it.... FATF says it....
It's war against terrorism... Allah Hu Akbar !!

 

[Screambowl]

Opposite own PP post is Pak post or rather a complex of Pak posts called Viewpoint. This viewpoint complex was also a formidable position owing to the fact it was situated at an elevated position where Pak Troops could see the movement around own PP post. Add to the height Pak army also had their own surveillance equipment and firepower.

The reason of this pak shelling which was too intense and too accurate was not due to the fact that Pak army used artillery location radar but because of the location of "viewpoint" where Pak troops could provide accurate fire corrections to their Mortar crew located somewhere behind both by visual dominance and their surveillance equipments.

I have a belief that Pakistanis dominate in altitude 35-40% of LC with equal fire power and they have full capability to keep the CFV ongoing as long as both want.

 

[pankaj nema]

How Many such places could be there where they dominate Indian positions?
I have a believe that Pakistanis dominate 40-45% of LC with equal fire power

I saw a TV program where it was said that India Dominates 70 percent of LOC ie Height advantage

Even where we are at a lower height we can hit them with More Firepower

This Battle will be decided By Firepower

In Kargil we were at the at the Bottom of the peaks

But we hammered Them with such Firepower that they could not sustain their positions

The LOC is very Long But it is Not One Continuos Mountain

The Ridge lines Go Up and Down

SO we can Hit them From an Adjacent Ridge Line which might be a Few Km Away

The GUNS and Mortars can Move in any direction

 

[Screambowl]

n Kargil we were at the at the Bottom of the peaks

But we hammered Them with such Firepower that they could not sustain their positions

In Kargil India used air force. Pakistanis even shot down 3 . Toll was huge. Although India took back but what if Pakistan had deployed one more division, PAF etc. Even after Indian soldiers were on top, the Pakis launched counter attack.

Let's be realistic now and not make jingoistic approaches to satisfy the egos. Let's remain to what has been discussed.

You have not read what he has posted. The PP posts and their observation post in the viewpoint both are vacated till today. And neither side allows the re-construction.

SO we can Hit them From an Adjacent Ridge Line which might be a Few Km Away

They can also do the same after 4 days. Whats the solution?
This is what CFV is all about.

 

[NeXoft007]

Places where Indian Army have clear domination..
Leepa Valley, Muzzafarabad-Neelum valley highway (for around 15 km) Athmuqam, Upper Neelum, Arang Kel, Lawat, Tatta Pani, Nakyal, Mangote, Mandhole, Madarpur and many areas along the Hajira-Tatta Pani highway.

 

[Screambowl]

Places where Indian Army have clear domination..
Leepa Valley, Muzzafarabad-Neelum valley highway (for around 15 km) Athmuqam, Upper Neelum, Arang Kel, Lawat, Tatta Pani, Nakyal, Mangote, Mandhole, Madarpur and many areas along the Hajira-Tatta Pani highway.

Are you sure that Indian positions dominate the Paki position and not just the valleys and cities.