Skirmishs at LOC, LAC & International Border

[pankaj nema]

While we need Better weapons , no doubt
Including Sniper rifles , please remember
That Weapons ALONE do not Stop an
Evil enemy like Pakistan

Pakistan are driven by Religious Hatred Alone

They can be deterred ONLY by Revenge and disproportionate destruction on their Side

So we need to only focus on killing their soldiers and destroying their assets

 

[Holy Triad]

Again brother we share the same view,current administration either initiated or fast tracked the above mentioned areas,especially in missile systems in which we are in the bleeding edge.
, BPJs and BPHs are in active induction phase.My concern is in the area of infantry weapons like rifles,lmgs,snipers... For rifles and lmgs l1 vendors are selected but won't signed before middle of 2019(we know that how many times GSQRs since the hunt began...)

 

[Anikastha]

Again brother we share the same view,current administration either initiated or fast tracked the above mentioned areas,especially in missile systems in which we are in the bleeding edge.
, BPJs and BPHs are in active induction phase.My concern is in the area of infantry weapons like rifles,lmgs,snipers... For rifles and lmgs l1 vendors are selected but won't signed before middle of 2019(we know that how many times GSQRs since the hunt began...)

Just visit counter terror thread.
Check posts posted before 2014 and posts posted recently.
You will find massive change in equipment and tactics.

 

[pankaj nema]

After 21 Dec , there has been no further loss of life on our side

This means Pakistanis are licking their wounds and lying low

Army knows how to take revenge

 

[ezsasa]

After 21 Dec , there has been no further loss of life on our side

This means Pakistanis are licking their wounds and lying low

Army knows how to take revenge

Or it is that snowing is intense in the higher regions.....

 

[pankaj nema]

When ever you guys feel bad about LOC
Attacks , Read this

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in...-attack-nirmala-sitharaman-1170923-2018-02-15

 

[pankaj nema]

Or it is that snowing is intense in the higher regions.....

Snowing only stops physical movement
Of People on foot

It does not stop Shelling and firing

 

[Enquirer]

Again, its not the bullet which determine the accuracy, but the precision making of gun and barrel. Dragunov is notorious for its accuracy over a distance exceeding 800 metres. If you compare its relative accuracy over the effective range, then it is much behind then our very old 303. The very reason why it is termed as DMR instead of a sniper rifle. Now a country like US who uses snipers as a doctrine of war fighting use M24 instead of a M82 or M107 as standard issue sniper rifles. But lets not get into technical specs of rifles here.

A heavier bullet is less prone to wind deflection compared to a lighter one - basic physics!
Especially in swirling winds that one cannot take into account before firing!
M24 is a DMR issued to squads and not to sniper teams! Moreover snipers normally choose their own rifles.

As far as targeting of our jawans are concerned, you might have come across news where they get airlifted after getting hit and in some cases recuperate. This type of survival is only possible in case of getting hit by 7.62 NATO. If they get hit by a 50cal round, the death would be instant and there would be no such cases of airlift to hospital. Even at a distance of 2000metre, a 50 cal round packs enough punch to disembowel a person even after putting on a BPJ.

Not ALL get airlifted. And not all 50 caliber hits are to head/torso. A soldier could be hit on shoulder, thighs etc where despite grievous injury the life could be saved.
Pakis maybe using smaller caliber DMRs too, but their job is made considerably easy as they have Barretts!
Pakis are crazy for caliber! They call Ak47 a 'carbine' - compared to IA's Strela (Paki standard issue rifle is G3)!!

As far as ballistic computers are concerned, few of the fields which needs inputs are type of ammo used, distance to target, wind direction, wind velocity temperature and most importantly height of the target. Now this very point makes it not so useful when we talk about using it as a standard in LOC. Even the pioneer US doesn't use it in field. This is only used when you have to make that one shot count and when your target is of immense high value.

Altitude is EASILY provided by a GPS receiver! My iPhone gives altitude close to few meters!! The ballistic computer normally has it built in!
Wind velocity is also determined by the ballistic computer - it has a built in fan!!!
Ballistic computers are STANDARD for a sniping team. There's no HVT sniping team vs LVT sniping team!

 

[Akshay_Fenix]

Centre goes all out to check intrusions, sniper attacks

The Central Government has decided to adopt a major strategy along the International Border in Jammu to counter infiltration attempts by the militants, backed by Pakistani Rangers, and sniping attacks in which some BSF soldiers have been killed in the recent past.

Official sources told the Excelsior that after successful trial of Israel technology of Comprehensive Integrated Border Management System (CIBMS) at two places in the form of pilot projects on the International Border, the Centre has decided to extend the CIBMS to more areas, which were vulnerable for infiltration, and gradually switch over to the new system of fencing.

“The Central Government proposed to expand smart fencing in more areas along the International Border in Jammu to keep the infiltration of militants from Pakistan side well under control. The spots vulnerable to infiltration will be taken up for the smart fencing,” sources said, pointing out that the CIBMS has already been put in place at two places covering a total area of 5.5 kilometers on the International Border.

Jammu region has about 192 kilometers International Boundary from Kathua to Akhnoor covering three border districts of Kathua, Samba and Jammu but during the past couple of months, no major infiltration attempt has been made by the militants, sources noted. However, the International Border had been in the news in September this year when one of the associates of three militants killed in an encounter at Jhajjar Kotli on Jammu-Srinagar National Highway revealed that he had transported at least 20 militants to Kashmir after their infiltration from the border in Jammu sector. All three slain militants had infiltrated between Hiranagar and Samba sectors.

According to sources, the Central Government, concerned over reports of infiltration attempts, wants to plug all major routes on the International Border to stop intrusions by the militants from across the border.

“The CIBMS was fool-proof system for controlling infiltration by the militants and, in view of this, the Government of India has decided to expand it to more spots along the International Border,” sources said, adding that smart fencing was first of its kind in India and it was first raised by Israel.

Experiment of the CIBMS has been successful, they said.

Gradually, the Central Government proposed to cover more areas on the International Border with smart fencing.

“The smart border fencing would make borders secure and the dependence on ground patrolling by troops will considerably be reduced,” sources said.

The smart border fencing projects, built under the CIBMS is the first of its kind in the country, have hi-tech surveillance system that would create an invisible electronic barrier on land, water and even in air and underground and would help the BSF to detect and foil infiltration bids in most difficult terrains. The CIBMS is designed to guard stretches where physical surveillance is not possible either due to inhospitable terrain or riverine borders.

CIBMS uses a number of different devices for surveillance, communication and data storage. Sensors like Thermal Imager, UGS, Fiber Optical Sensors, Radar and Sonar have been mounted on different platforms like Aerostat, tower, poles etc. A comprehensive integration of such sensors and other technical systems of communication and data processing have been achieved in the CIBMS project. The signals reach the Unified Command and Control Centre where the BSF can monitor the border on real-time basis. The CIBMS enables round-the-clock surveillance on border and under different weather conditions be it in dust storm, fog or rain.

Meanwhile, the Central Government has also decided to convert forward bunkers and posts of the BSF with bullet-proof technology to save the jawans from sniping attacks from Pakistan, sources said.

Asserting that the jawans were suffering more casualties in sniper attacks from Pakistan than cross-border shelling and firing or during thwarting infiltration attempts, sources said the Central Government is in the process of giving final touch to a proposal for using bullet-proof technology for forward bunkers of the jawans to save them from the sniper attacks.

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/centre-goes-all-out-to-check-intrusions-sniper-attacks/

 

[Chinmoy]

A heavier bullet is less prone to wind deflection compared to a lighter one - basic physics!
Especially in swirling winds that one cannot take into account before firing!
M24 is a DMR issued to squads and not to sniper teams! Moreover snipers normally choose their own rifles.

Actually when we say 7.62x54 mm or 7.62x51 mm, 7.62 is the diameter of the bullet, whereas 54 or 51 mm is the length of the casing. Weight of a sniper grade 7.62x54 mm bullet is around 9.7 gm and that of a 7.62 NATO bullet is 9.6 gm. So you see I am not sure how much difference wind could make in .1gm scenario.

And here you could see the bullet drop comparison. The 54 mm casing gives the Dragunov round a longer range, but not accuracy. Moreover M24 is a standard issue sniper rifle, whereas rifles like M82 are picked up by users for mission specific role.

Not ALL get airlifted. And not all 50 caliber hits are to head/torso. A soldier could be hit on shoulder, thighs etc where despite grievous injury the life could be saved.
Pakis maybe using smaller caliber DMRs too, but their job is made considerably easy as they have Barretts!
Pakis are crazy for caliber! They call Ak47 a 'carbine' - compared to IA's Strela (Paki standard issue rifle is G3)!!

If even a soldier gets hit on any of his limb with a 50 cal from 2000 metres, he would be permanently disabled for life. I have complete faith on our media to publish such a incident with all the gory details. Till now no such reports have fallen in my eyes or ears and so it is still in dark about what kind of Sniper rifles they are using to target.

Altitude is EASILY provided by a GPS receiver! My iPhone gives altitude close to few meters!! The ballistic computer normally has it built in!
Wind velocity is also determined by the ballistic computer - it has a built in fan!!!
Ballistic computers are STANDARD for a sniping team. There's no HVT sniping team vs LVT sniping team!

Basically I was talking of target height, not altitude. Target height means the height of a person as in feet or inches. If you have seen or handled a ballistic computer, it is one important field which needs to be entered. Over long distance small and trivial factors like these are of great help. So if the target is someone known, it becomes much more easier for the user to input the data. But if its some random shoot as in case of ours, system like these are of not much help. A ballistic chart, known as a Sniper's bible, is much more practical. Even if you have seen documentaries of recent Iraq or Afghan war, the snipers were consulting ballistic charts rather then computers.

But lets discuss anything more on technical terms on the dedicated thread.

 

[Enquirer]

Actually when we say 7.62x54 mm or 7.62x51 mm, 7.62 is the diameter of the bullet, whereas 54 or 51 mm is the length of the casing.

Tell me something I don't know! Why do folks resort to stating the obvious and mundane in the hope of appearing smart? When I said that 7.62x54mm will have longer range it is obviously because it has MORE PROPELLANT; why would you assume that I was referring to the bullet size? - does a bigger bullet travel longer than a smaller one when both are propelled by the same amount of thrust?

Weight of a sniper grade 7.62x54 mm bullet is around 9.7 gm and that of a 7.62 NATO bullet is 9.6 gm. So you see I am not sure how much difference wind could make in .1gm scenario.

MORE PROPELLANT MEANS MORE THRUST AND LONGER RANGE! QED!

View attachment 30638
And here you could see the bullet drop comparison. The 54 mm casing gives the Dragunov round a longer range, but not accuracy. Moreover M24 is a standard issue sniper rifle, whereas rifles like M82 are picked up by users for mission specific role.

Why do you keep talking about 'casing' - talk about the EXTRA PROPELLANT that comes with a bigger cartridge. I never said that more propellant increases accuracy. Similar accuracy BUT larger range - that's what a bigger-cartridge/more-propellant offers.
You still don't see the simple logic - US military offers varied types of sniper/dmr rifles that's mission specific. The lament is that Indian army has NO long range sniper rifles!!!

If even a soldier gets hit on any of his limb with a 50 cal from 2000 metres, he would be permanently disabled for life. I have complete faith on our media to publish such a incident with all the gory details. Till now no such reports have fallen in my eyes or ears and so it is still in dark about what kind of Sniper rifles they are using to target.

You're saying that soldiers either just die or come out sprinting from the front? No soldier gets disabled?
No tv reporter worth their salt ever reports on the fate of soldiers beyond a day of action. If dead, then the funeral is covered. But if injured or 'admitted to hospital' the story just dies that very day.....several soldiers do die days later, or are permanently disabled. No reporter, unfortunately, follows the soldiers' injuries/disabilities!

Basically I was talking of target height, not altitude. Target height means the height of a person as in feet or inches. If you have seen or handled a ballistic computer, it is one important field which needs to be entered. Over long distance small and trivial factors like these are of great help. So if the target is someone known, it becomes much more easier for the user to input the data. But if its some random shoot as in case of ours, system like these are of not much help. A ballistic chart, known as a Sniper's bible, is much more practical. Even if you have seen documentaries of recent Iraq or Afghan war, the snipers were consulting ballistic charts rather then computers.

Makes no sense! Why would anyone care about the target's height? This is not Tinder!!!
For a sniper, the target is just a SPOT at a distance!

You've convoluted the entire discussion!!
The key point was that IA needs longer range sniper weapons. My lament was that the best option IA has is only a Dragunov - and you offered several 'smaller ranged' DMRs as a panacea (weird!!). And then somehow went in circles about pointing out something obvious about caliber as means to I don't know what....

 

[pankaj nema]

Till the time we get new sniper guns
We can use MMGs and Russian HMGs such as KPV and NSV from our forward posts

 

[SmilingBuddha01]

Defenceanalyst91

Uptill now it was only highlighting Indian casualties on the border but there seems to be more about this chap.

I already mentioned earlier about the intention of this guy...
Something fishy about him!

Sent from my Redmi Y2 using Tapatalk

 

[Enquirer]

Till the time we get new sniper guns
We can use MMGs and Russian HMGs such as KPV and NSV from our forward posts

But they're not the alternatives to sniper weapons. Machine guns are not accurate. Their positions are fairly stationary - cannot be moved easily due to their weight!
Enemy will just duck to avoid machine gun fire.

The whole idea of sniper weapons is to move stealthily closer to the LOC, take out targets and retreat undetected.

 

[pankaj nema]

https://www.quora.com/Which-sniper-rifle-does-our-Indian-Army-use-Do-we-have-50-caliber-rifles

This is what I found on Quora

 

[Chinmoy]

Tell me something I don't know! Why do folks resort to stating the obvious and mundane in the hope of appearing smart? When I said that 7.62x54mm will have longer range it is obviously because it has MORE PROPELLANT; why would you assume that I was referring to the bullet size? - does a bigger bullet travel longer than a smaller one when both are propelled by the same amount of thrust?

Why you make a joke out of yourself one time or other? Let me see where things started.

I posted this...

Again, its not the bullet which determine the accuracy, but the precision making of gun and barrel. Dragunov is notorious for its accuracy over a distance exceeding 800 metres. If you compare its relative accuracy over the effective range, then it is much behind then our very old 303. The very reason why it is termed as DMR instead of a sniper rifle. Now a country like US who uses snipers as a doctrine of war fighting use M24 instead of a M82 or M107 as standard issue sniper rifles. But lets not get into technical specs of rifles here.

Then you have shown the gem of your knowledge by stating this against my specific quote.

A heavier bullet is less prone to wind deflection compared to a lighter one - basic physics!

Now could you try to explain who is mundane?

MORE PROPELLANT MEANS MORE THRUST AND LONGER RANGE! QED!

Ofcourse. No one denies the fact. But it doesn't mean more propellant means more accuracy. Go back and read my comments. I stated that Dragunov is notorious for its accuracy over longer range. You came up with gem of 7.62x54 and 7.62x51 idea.

Why do you keep talking about 'casing' - talk about the EXTRA PROPELLANT that comes with a bigger cartridge. I never said that more propellant increases accuracy. Similar accuracy BUT larger range - that's what a bigger-cartridge/more-propellant offers.

I am not the one who started talking of casing at very first place. My only point is distance of general engagement in our situation.

You're saying that soldiers either just die or come out sprinting from the front? No soldier gets disabled?
No tv reporter worth their salt ever reports on the fate of soldiers beyond a day of action. If dead, then the funeral is covered. But if injured or 'admitted to hospital' the story just dies that very day.....several soldiers do die days later, or are permanently disabled. No reporter, unfortunately, follows the soldiers' injuries/disabilities!

I am talking about the level of injuries. I said that I have full faith in our media to publish a survivor of 50 cal hit with all its full gory by dragging the whole authorities starting from PMO to COAS is depicting how they failed to protect limbs of soldiers. But since we are yet to see such spectacular news, its only a speculation of what sort of weapons Pakis are using. Period.

Makes no sense! Why would anyone care about the target's height? This is not Tinder!!!
For a sniper, the target is just a SPOT at a distance!

Go and ask this to any sniper taking a long distance shot.

 

[Enquirer]

Why you make a joke out of yourself one time or other? Let me see where things started.

I posted this...



Then you have shown the gem of your knowledge by stating this against my specific quote.



Now could you try to explain who is mundane?




Ofcourse. No one denies the fact. But it doesn't mean more propellant means more accuracy. Go back and read my comments. I stated that Dragunov is notorious for its accuracy over longer range. You came up with gem of 7.62x54 and 7.62x51 idea.




I am not the one who started talking of casing at very first place. My only point is distance of general engagement in our situation.




I am talking about the level of injuries. I said that I have full faith in our media to publish a survivor of 50 cal hit with all its full gory by dragging the whole authorities starting from PMO to COAS is depicting how they failed to protect limbs of soldiers. But since we are yet to see such spectacular news, its only a speculation of what sort of weapons Pakis are using. Period.



Go and ask this to any sniper taking a long distance shot.

You have a serious problem keeping track of logic and information, as you're swirling in a vortex of confusion.

The 'heavier bullet being less deflected' was stated in support of preferrentially acquiring 50 caliber sniper rifles. Dragunovs cartridge's larger propelling power was stated in the context of you offering a lower ranged Steyr, PSG, Galil rifles with IA as a panacea!
Paki sniper rifles (Barrett etc) are a 'speculation'?? You need more awareness!

According to you a sniper team comprises:
- Sniper
- Spotter
- Tailor (who would run to the target and get his measurements)
BRAVO!!!

 

[Chinmoy]

You have a serious problem keeping track of logic and information, as you're swirling in a vortex of confusion.

The 'heavier bullet being less deflected' was stated in support of preferrentially acquiring 50 caliber sniper rifles. Dragunovs cartridge's larger propelling power was stated in the context of you offering a lower ranged Steyr, PSG, Galil rifles with IA as a panacea!
Paki sniper rifles (Barrett etc) are a 'speculation'?? You need more awareness!

According to you a sniper team comprises:
- Sniper
- Spotter
- Tailor (who would run to the target and get his measurements)
BRAVO!!!

My logic is........... We have capable sniper rifles like SP66 and SSG9 which could do the job. All we need is better training in this aspect. In a given terrain like Himalaya, the most practical engagement distance is less then 1000 metres and it is based on my practical experience rather then books. Anything longer then this is very rare and again, mission specific.

But yes, I too agree that we need longer range and more accurate guns firing Winchester or Lapua Magnum rounds.

As far as Dragunov is concerned, it ofcourse does have a longer range, but its accuracy at that range is highly questionable. If you don't like my comparison chart, you would do your own research. The only onus is its ruggedness when compared with any other western sniper rifle like M24 which are maintenance heavy.

Pakis do have M82 and M107 and there is no doubt in this. But signature of these rifles are so high that unless the shooter is beyond the reach of any counter measure, its too impractical to use. But as again I said, the geography of the area also prevents them to use such a weapon every time and even if they use it from the max effective range, its effect would be too gory to hide from our MSM. So I would stick to my assumption and you are free to stick to yours.

As per your tailor comment, I would ask you to kindly consult the CheyTac guys who first came out with this ballistic computers. Ask them why they kept this field in their calculation. It might be for "Fill in the blanks".

 

[pankaj nema]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepárd_anti-materiel_rifle

This Rifle is being used by our SF, GM Lynx

We should supply them to our Regular Infantry battalions

 

[ezsasa]

My logic is........... We have capable sniper rifles like SP66 and SSG9 which could do the job. All we need is better training in this aspect. In a given terrain like Himalaya, the most practical engagement distance is less then 1000 metres and it is based on my practical experience rather then books. Anything longer then this is very rare and again, mission specific.

But yes, I too agree that we need longer range and more accurate guns firing Winchester or Lapua Magnum rounds.

As far as Dragunov is concerned, it ofcourse does have a longer range, but its accuracy at that range is highly questionable. If you don't like my comparison chart, you would do your own research. The only onus is its ruggedness when compared with any other western sniper rifle like M24 which are maintenance heavy.

Pakis do have M82 and M107 and there is no doubt in this. But signature of these rifles are so high that unless the shooter is beyond the reach of any counter measure, its too impractical to use. But as again I said, the geography of the area also prevents them to use such a weapon every time and even if they use it from the max effective range, its effect would be too gory to hide from our MSM. So I would stick to my assumption and you are free to stick to yours.

As per your tailor comment, I would ask you to kindly consult the CheyTac guys who first came out with this ballistic computers. Ask them why they kept this field in their calculation. It might be for "Fill in the blanks".

You seem to have some suggestions about sniper tactics...

Consider this in your assumptions, an American sniper apparently fires 2,50,000 rounds before earning the patch.

We don’t buy those amounts of sniper ammo.