Skirmishs at LOC, LAC & International Border

Status
Not open for further replies.

pmaitra

New Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,600
Indian economy today is 2.5 trillion USD nominal probably the 5th largest, and 10 trillion USD PPP which is 3rd largest. If we can't get support whith such an economy, the problem lies with us not the economy.
I have responded separately. India is doing whatever it can. If you wish to suggest some other action, please provide a list of such possible actions.

Today North Korea has better nukes and far better missile systems than what Pakistan has, Note the support countries against North Korea are getting. Are the nukes and missiles stopping their action against North Korea. If you say military action then Its not the nukes but the close proximity of Seoul, North Korean conventional artillery numbers which is preventing the military attack, and the hidden PLA factor. Their nukes which can easily hit Guam etc has not stopped the aggressive behavior of USA.
North Korea serves as a launch pad against the US that both Russia and PRC could use while preserving the plausible deniability. I read news that both PRC and Russia were selling them oil in violation of UN resolution. For Russia and PRC, North Korea is an asset. For the US, it gave a defence contractor an opportunity to propose a defence shield along the US West Coast. I wonder what was the need for Trump to muddy the waters with North Korea? I don't believe North Korea is a threat to the US.

Pakistan crossed the LoC and not international border, Which we also did officially last year. Although you may have a point on holding territory, but world reacted to the 98/99 breach as the breach of an international border, Which perhaps was not seen as such when Gibraltar happened in 65.
We did it officially? Perhaps I was misinformed. Would you please provide the statement from the Army spokesperson that we crossed the international border?

I don't get your point ? Pakistanis have been attacking us from 48, since when did we lay our arms and surrendered to their assaults ? What did the Government allow after 26/11 please tell, I am all ears.
What should the government have allowed after 26/11? Who sought permission? I ask because someone in a higher authority can allow an action only if someone from a subordinate position seeks permission. So, please clarify.

Which is why we hold the right to respond to the aggression, why do I turn the other cheek ?
We have the moral right to respond, yes, so what do you propose we do?

I hope the recommendation is to actually do against Pakistan and not against fellow Indians. I mean, I don't want a situation where we cannot hit back at Pakistan so we hit back at our fellow countrymen under some flimsy excuses.

Our biggest weakness is the Gandhi-Nehruvian ideology and school of thought, which good for serving the master but catastrophic for state craft.
Our biggest weakness is our propensity to jump to conclusions without any evidence, just because someone said so. India is a highly faith and belief based culture, unlike the west, that is an evidence or metrics based culture.

China's GDP in 2001 was 1.339 trillion USD.
Responded separately and sought clarification.

No Pakistan is the perpetrator of terrorism (true), far from being the victim (false), It aid and nurture these terrorists (true). Pakistani people through a remarkable effort has developed the system to breed and develop world class terrorists. (partially true and partially false)
For the excerpt above, I have responded inline in red.

No one in the world with any sense left believes what Pakistanis say, which why Pakistan has to continuously whine about it. Those who believe get backstabbed some knowingly due to the trap.
Oh, I believe they are a victim of terrorism. If someone thinks that I have no sense left, then so be it. It won't change my opinion. :)

Do watch BBC documentary named Double cross, where top commanders of NATO and US talk about Pakistan.
Is it on YouTube. If yes, please share.

So has Kashmir gone to middle east ?
Please clarify.

Is it not affecting our links with energy rich central Asia ? Russia has her own resources, we have our own. They use their resources whatever they have to their advantage, are we using our resources to our advantage ? Is doing nothing or turning the other cheek our advantage ?
India needs to wait for the right opportunity to take control of PoK and Gilgit-Baltistan. It won't happen tomorrow or next year. However, we need to prepare and be ready when the window of opportunity arrives. Access to Central Asia will not only ensure energy security, but it is also important to delink the physical geographical connection between PRC and Pakistan.

While we are talking about Central Asia, I am not very optimistic about attempts to create an alliance with the Uighurs. They have the potential of turning into a Frankenstein. We should learn from our mistake with the LTTE, from Pakistan's mistake with the Mujahideen, the USA's mistake with OBL.
 

Kshithij

DharmaYoddha
New Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
2,242
Likes
1,961
Governments are more likely to act under public pressure. If there is no public pressure, the government will be under less pressure to act. So, thank you for making my point. That is what I was trying to say. If military action against Pakistan is not known to the Pakistani public, the Pakistani government will have less incentive to act against India.

The Pakistani government can be used in two senses: (1) elected government, or (2) the military establishment.
Do not threaten anyone unless you are prepared to carry them out.
Constantine made the Roman Empire embrace Christianity so he is a traitor? Ashoka is a traitor because he made India Buddhist?

Interesting.

I knew this was going to gravitate towards religious demagoguery. It seldom doesn't. :)

You can do better than that.
A traitor is someone who betrays the civilisational values. Now, answer the question - how to protect the civilization from traitors within?

I didn't want to lecture this, but you are forcing me to: The most important part of life is design of living (called culture) and is also most important to be protected. The highest priority is to be given to this as building a civilisation (group of people with common culture) takes several generations, even thousands of years. Destruction of it takes just a generation. Hence it is important to protect the thousands of years of work of the previous generations. Betrayal in this regard is of utmost serious nature and undermines the wrk of everyone.

You don't seem to understand the point of a nation. A nation is a group of people with common culture and historical background. So, it is important that a select group of people don't get to control everyone and betray as ashoka or Constantine did. This is demagogue? Are you seriously out of your mind? When the very point of existence of a state is violated, do you call it professional behaviour?

People are not slaves of the ruling elite. It is just division of labour. There is no reason to say that the ruling elite is composed of superhumans who are capable of taking decisions better.

You never answered my question as to how to weed out traitors within and prevent a few people from enslaving the rest just because they felt so. Sloganeering is the most retarded thing one could do. Ukraine people lack any form of identity and that is a result of over a century of command economy whereby they were merely slaves of the state and had no other purpose of life. So, this is not really a good comparison

Economy very much determines firefighting capability. You need money, for food, clothes, equipment, etc.. The economy must be able to support the war effort.

You can have the biggest army in the world, but if you cannot feed them for 3 days, your army will disappear. I know I am borrowing this from somewhere, but I cannot remember whom to give credit to.

I think we are living in very different worlds.

I have been observing the Ukrainian Civil War for a long time. Kiev dispatched a detachment of soldiers with armoured personnel carriers from Dnepropetrovsk to Slavyansk but were not provided enough food rations. Guess what happened? The soldiers were hungry. They surrendered their weapons to the militia. The local fed the soldiers. Then, the soldiers went back to their homes.

Next, coming back to economy, today's economy is based in natural resources. Since natural resources is not abundant in india as compared to usa, Russia or China, it is obvious that Indian economy will always be weak. That, however doesn't mean that the civilization built over thousands of years is just undefended. Pakistan is even worse off. They lack even minimum resources needed. Hence their economy is faltering.

That is also why Pakistan made the statement of eating grass. Now, since India is not blessed with natural resource as USA, Russia, China but definitely has more resources than Pakistan, it is possible for India to focus the resources on defence build up instead of wasting on consumption. Thankfully, India has enough resources to keep its people fed, buy clothes with basic minimum resources while focusing other resource to building up defence. But it is important to prioritise.

A lot of technological development happened before World War II. Sorry, I think you should widen your horizon a little bit. The Industrial Revolution gave a massive boost to the Europeans and they are still enjoying the benefits of that boost.
Again, ww2 had gotten india lot of those technology. Also, these were about ideas, not software related and hence could be reverse engineered. China, as I have mentioned, were worse than India in 1950. How is it that they could make nuclear weapons, submarines, ICBM by 1980?

Yes, but we would have probably lost Kashmir, and that is a problem. It is more important to have Kashmir in our control because it is a matter of our water security. How someone draws a border on a map does not necessarily reflect how borders end up getting drawn in real life.
Population exchange was suggested by Ambedkar in 1947 itself. He was very vehement about it too.India might have lost Kashmir in return for Sindh as Sindh was Hindu majority. Or maybe there could have been a swap of Sindh for Kashmir.

Even the loss of Kashmir didn't include Jammu or Ladakh. The reduction of muslim population of 20 crore is way more important than Kashmir. Also, several rivers orignate or flow via Ladakh and Jammu and only a few via KAshmir. The loss wouldn't have been big. But the profit of reduced population would have been far greater. Also, considering that Pakistan drove away Hindus and Sikhs after partition, there was no reason to show any form of mercy but just drive out muslims without offering them anything from entire India, instead of just punjab.

Even if one has to eat grass?

Please read this article: Eating grass

We have been mocking the Pakistanis for making such statements. I do not intend to mock you, but pray tell me, do you have an expectation to be taken seriously when you say the same thing?
Mankind is selfish. I am an admirer of anarchism (not to be conflated with lawlessness), but I doubt it can work in reality. In any case, what you say is an opinion, and I have nothing more to offer here.
This mocking is something I have explained earlier.

The point I made about India having to wait is simple military tactics. You have to wait for the opportunity when you act. A good general will pick a place and time when it maximizes his chances of victory. The example I gave was to highlight that the covert action in East Pakistan had to be kept a secret until all the favourable conditions sought by India were met.

I admit I wasn't clear earlier. Am I clearer now?
I agree with it. But, in today's context, Pakistan is blamed on behalf of islam itself. Due to several reasons:
1) Excessive Arab oil reserves and hence dependency
2) Lack of military technology which makes it even more important to get foreign resources
3) Presence of large muslims within India
4) Muslims everywhere around india - Malaysia, Indonesia, bangladesh, Pakistan etc
5) Independence was fake with mere transfer of powers whereby lot of anti-hindu elements and pro islam elements were slyly kept inside
6) Poor quality ancestors who lived like animals without any purpose in life and couldn't care less about protecting the civilisation or dharma and hence let the traitors and foreign agents run government.
7) Due to over 60 years of misrule and poor quality of people, the good people are in minority and hence have to resort to gimmicks to build perception and hence get elected again
8) The mistakes of the past is so glaring that the good people are weak and are unable to take direct action. Since the establishment itself is filled with traitors, it is important to focus on real issues. However, weakness due to past mistakes have made that difficult. Hence resorting to gimmicks and milder form of action.

If you have better option to protect the civilisation and buy time for building up defence against the established traitors and external enemies from outside at the same time, please suggest.
 

pankaj nema

New Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2009
Messages
10,308
Likes
38,743
Country flag

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

New Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
4,257
Likes
18,272
Country flag
Opinion | A Bloody Haul on the Border Is Only Way to Compel Pakistan to Change Its Ways

India wants peace along Line of Control but that makes it difficult for Pakistan Army to push in terrorists and project Jammu and Kashmir as a turbulent region.

Lt Gen (Retd) DS Hooda |

Updated : December 27, 2017, 9:06 PM IST

http://www.news18.com/news/india/op...mpel-pakistan-to-change-its-ways-1616393.html
I hope the same thing what i had said but this time with a Generals signature and 40 years of service opens some peoples eyes.

An interesting thing he mentioned if you read between the lines...

"Some incidents get reported in media but most dont"
 

pankaj nema

New Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2009
Messages
10,308
Likes
38,743
Country flag
"Some incidents get reported in media but most dont"
He also says these things
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is impossible for any military leader to salute his comrade's coffin without promising retribution.

Deaths which remain unavenged will lead to a disastrous loss of morale. Troops are already under tremendous pressure and they need the highs of tactical victories.

This game is playing out daily on the LoC. Some incidents get highlighted in the media but most don't.

However, successful actions contribute to a sense of ‘moral ascendancy’ over your enemy. In warlike situations, as Napolean said, “Moral is to the physical as three to one.”

But is there a war on at the LoC? For a soldier whose post is being bombarded by artillery, mortars, rocket launchers and machine guns, it is as close to war as he can get.

Under these circumstances, military pressure seems to be the only path. Pakistan Army cannot be permitted to plan terrorist actions in comfort and without fear of retribution. They must feel the pain of lost comrades. It will be a long and somewhat bloody haul but today there appears to be no other alternative to compel Pakistan to change its ways.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

pankaj nema

New Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2009
Messages
10,308
Likes
38,743
Country flag
@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

The very fact that Indian Firing has led to Pakistan seeking DGMO talks ; several times in the current year and our poor High Commisioner being called daily by them is enough proof that they are Hurting Badly

This is the Only way to keep them quiet
 

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

New Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
4,257
Likes
18,272
Country flag
He also says these things
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is impossible for any military leader to salute his comrade's coffin without promising retribution.

Deaths which remain unavenged will lead to a disastrous loss of morale. Troops are already under tremendous pressure and they need the highs of tactical victories.

This game is playing out daily on the LoC. Some incidents get highlighted in the media but most don't.

However, successful actions contribute to a sense of ‘moral ascendancy’ over your enemy. In warlike situations, as Napolean said, “Moral is to the physical as three to one.”

But is there a war on at the LoC? For a soldier whose post is being bombarded by artillery, mortars, rocket launchers and machine guns, it is as close to war as he can get.

Under these circumstances, military pressure seems to be the only path. Pakistan Army cannot be permitted to plan terrorist actions in comfort and without fear of retribution. They must feel the pain of lost comrades. It will be a long and somewhat bloody haul but today there appears to be no other alternative to compel Pakistan to change its ways.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was talking about stratergic victories from post number 1.

He is saying the same thing what i had said.These killings if not avenged leads to a low morale they have to be avenged.

But in the revenge if we can gain a tactical or stratergic objective then nothing like it.

Obviously,he would not write in an article that we should attack LOC coz you know the left media will target him.

He is on the same page and i am not surprised coz i know what faujis are thinking about the problem in LOC.
 

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

New Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
4,257
Likes
18,272
Country flag
@COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

The very fact that Indian Firing has led to Pakistan seeking DGMO talks ; several times in the current year and our poor High Commisioner being called daily by them is enough proof that they are Hurting Badly

This is the Only way to keep them quiet
Bhai hurt nahi karna he ab.

Now is the time to handicap them like 71.
 

pankaj nema

New Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2009
Messages
10,308
Likes
38,743
Country flag
DEFENCE

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/in-trans-loc-operations-an-offensive-game-plan-is-key

In Trans-LOC Operations, An Offensive Game Plan Is Key

bySyed Ata Hasnain-Dec 30, 2017, 9:57 am



An Indian Army soldier patrols on the fence near the
India-Pakistan LOC in Chakan-da-Bagh area near Poonch. (Gurinder Osan/Hindustan Times via Getty Images)


Snapshot

  • The Indian Army needs, as part of a transformation of conflict with Pakistan, greater proactivity and freedom to operate optimally to place its adversary under intense pressure.
 

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

New Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
4,257
Likes
18,272
Country flag
You see pak army is not a moral army.

Had their morality been so high the minimum they could have done is to accept their casualties.

Yeh hamari army ka badappan he that we gave them proper burial in kargil.Otherwise had our morality been like them we could have done anything with their dead bodies.

Their Nishan-e-haider Capt Sher Khan from Tiger hill Kargil got this award on the recommendation of who?..The Indian general called them up and told them of his brave act.

In hinduism we are taught that after the death the enemy is not your enemy.

Anyway, the point is that their Generals really dont care about how many troops die.

The last raid as per my source cost them more than 8 and atleast 15 men but look at how many they claimed were killed..3!

The rest dont even get a soldiers honor and right to have a name for his sacrfifice.

Such people cannot be taught any lesson by small tit for tat raids.
 

pankaj nema

New Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2009
Messages
10,308
Likes
38,743
Country flag
You see pak army is not a moral army.

Had their morality been so high the minimum they could have done is to accept their casualties.

Yeh hamari army ka badappan he that we gave them proper burial in kargil.Otherwise had our morality been like them we could have done anything with their dead bodies.

Their Nishan-e-haider Capt Sher Khan from Tiger hill Kargil got this award on the recommendation of who?..The Indian general called them up and told them of his brave act.

In hinduism we are taught that after the death the enemy is not your enemy.

Anyway, the point is that their Generals really dont care about how many troops die.

The last raid as per my source cost them more than 8 and atleast 15 men but look at how many they claimed were killed..3!

The rest dont even get a soldiers honor and right to have a name for his sacrfifice.

Such people cannot be taught any lesson by small tit for tat raids.
These Generals may not be dying but what Good is a general without his soldiers

The only way to break their Ego is to massacre their soldiers

And when the Right Opportunity presents itself we can
do Deep Surgery on the Pak Army

Every thing depends on Opportunity

Some experts are suggesting April is the month to watch out for
 

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

New Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
4,257
Likes
18,272
Country flag
These Generals may not be dying but what Good is a general without his soldiers

The only way to break their Ego is to massacre their soldiers

And when the Right Opportunity presents itself we can
do Deep Surgery on the Pak Army

Every thing depends on Opportunity

Some experts are suggesting April is the month to watch out for
Almost agree with you but just one correction...not soldiers but officers need to be killed.

Soldiers in their army are cannon fodder.That would not hurt them as much as taking a Major,colonel or a brigader.

Actually,during surgical strikes their brigader was on the scope of a Indian sniper but due to bigger plans he was let go.
 

Darth Malgus

New Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2016
Messages
2,439
Likes
8,782
Country flag
DEFENCE

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/in-trans-loc-operations-an-offensive-game-plan-is-key

In Trans-LOC Operations, An Offensive Game Plan Is Key

bySyed Ata Hasnain-Dec 30, 2017, 9:57 am



An Indian Army soldier patrols on the fence near the
India-Pakistan LOC in Chakan-da-Bagh area near Poonch. (Gurinder Osan/Hindustan Times via Getty Images)


Snapshot

  • The Indian Army needs, as part of a transformation of conflict with Pakistan, greater proactivity and freedom to operate optimally to place its adversary under intense pressure.

"On 25 December 2017, I was forced to mentally recall the lay of the ground again as this was the exact area of the 59 Baluch against whom an Indian unit of the famous Poonch Brigade carried out a local tactical action across the LOC, killing an officer and three jawans of the Pakistan Army."

So there is a confirmed kill of an officer.....
 

COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

New Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
4,257
Likes
18,272
Country flag
"On 25 December 2017, I was forced to mentally recall the lay of the ground again as this was the exact area of the 59 Baluch against whom an Indian unit of the famous Poonch Brigade carried out a local tactical action across the LOC, killing an officer and three jawans of the Pakistan Army."

So there is a confirmed kill of an officer.....
They dont even care about junior officers.

Just wow.

What a Army..even Al Qaida is better than them who accept their casualties.
 

NeXoft007

New Member
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
1,680
Likes
13,509
Country flag
"On 25 December 2017, I was forced to mentally recall the lay of the ground again as this was the exact area of the 59 Baluch against whom an Indian unit of the famous Poonch Brigade carried out a local tactical action across the LOC, killing an officer and three jawans of the Pakistan Army."

So there is a confirmed kill of an officer.....
I already said tho, a Lieutenant of Pakistan Army was killed on December 25th
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Articles

Top