S-400 performance in Syria = Paper Tiger

[asianobserve]

Dude.. THAAD is BMD system.. S-400 is an air defence system.. China as well as Russia, are pretty anxious over deployment of BMD systems on their borders, as it might negatively impact their nuclear deterrence capabilities..

THAAD plus Patriot PAC3.

 

[Foxbat]

Aftermath Of Israel's Bombardment Of Syrian Port Seen In Satellite Imagery
View attachment 128438

Aftermath Of Israel's Bombardment Of Syrian Port Seen In Satellite Imagery

The Israeli air raid may have been connected to the appearance of an Iranian-flagged container ship at the port.

www.thedrive.com

Interesting point from the above article, wonder how much of it is true:

However, it is known that Russia is notified by Israel in advance of Syrian airstrikes and there exists an agreement under which its air defenses do not engage the Israeli Air Force. It seems that Zhuravlyov’s explanation was mainly directed toward the Syrian public, which has been notably vocal in its criticism of the Russian response to the airstrikes, and Moscow’s air defense policy in the country in general.

 

[Covfefe]

Interesting point from the above article, wonder how much of it is true:

However, it is known that Russia is notified by Israel in advance of Syrian airstrikes and there exists an agreement under which its air defenses do not engage the Israeli Air Force. It seems that Zhuravlyov’s explanation was mainly directed toward the Syrian public, which has been notably vocal in its criticism of the Russian response to the airstrikes, and Moscow’s air defense policy in the country in general.

He's just trolling, ignore. Russian AD systems have shot down Israeli missiles in the past, and S400 is a more advanced system that's deployed now. But Israel wouldn't want a direct confrontation with Ruskies as it brings the unnecessary US- Russia conflict to their home. If Israel were to target Russian sites directly, it would mean that it's open to a starting a direct offensive conflict with Russia, which it is not capable of. The understanding serves both their purposes- Russia's purpose of staying there and keeping the Assad regime alive without too much costs, and Israel's purpose of targeting the bases from where attacks are planned and war stores kept without getting into a Sam-Bear conflict. As a byproduct it also feeds content to trolls.

 

[asianobserve]

Interesting point from the above article, wonder how much of it is true:

However, it is known that Russia is notified by Israel in advance of Syrian airstrikes and there exists an agreement under which its air defenses do not engage the Israeli Air Force. It seems that Zhuravlyov’s explanation was mainly directed toward the Syrian public, which has been notably vocal in its criticism of the Russian response to the airstrikes, and Moscow’s air defense policy in the country in general.

Most likely, we'll never know. But if Russia did turn off its S-400 during the Israeli airstrike what does that tell you about Russian reliability as an ally, patron and arms supplier?

 

[HawkisRight]

What I don't understand is why tf porks are jumping..porks neither have s400 nor Israeli EW systems Lol

 

[Love Charger]

What I don't understand is why tf porks are jumping..porks neither have s400 nor Israeli EW systems Lol

What I assume now is that , IAF must not fly when they use s 400 against pakis .
It will be dangerous for IAF to do so

 

[asianobserve]

What I don't understand is why tf porks are jumping..porks neither have s400 nor Israeli EW systems Lol

Anyone who believe this lame excuse does not know the most simple arithmetic, 1+1=2.

The Israeli F-16s that dropped the bombs on Latakia port can be seen by S-400 radar closing in on the target zone (which is close to a Russian air base) and if S-400 is worth an ounce of its hype could have easily been shot down as it was definitely well within Russia's red line. And even if there was a Russian transport landing at the time it was no issue to engaging the Israeli F-16s since I'm 100% sure that those IDF planes were flying at high altitude while the Russian transport was at lower altitude and could not have been in danger of mistargetting (unless Russia now admits tgat S-400 radar is total rubbish at IFF)... And if all else fail in shooting down those IDF F-16s prior to bomb release then surely S-400 could easily have engaged those jets when they were egressing the area.

Only fools would believe this bizzare Russian excuse. But then again only fools believe Russia, so there you go.

 

[IndianHawk]

What big mistake on India's part.

But it was no surprise since Indian military establishment are most Soviet-India hangover...




Of course not. You have to defend S-400 because it's what India has. If India went for THAAD and Patriot then you'll be defending them instead.

But to put THAAD versus S-400 into a more objective perspective, consider China's reaction. China made a lot of hulabalo to US stationing THAAD in SoKor. China pressured SoKor to deny THAAD being station in SoKor close to China.

Was there a comment or did China even libby Russia to deny selling India S-400? None.

So there you go.

You have comprehension issues. We obviously listened to American details about thaad and patriot and found them inadequate compared to s400.

If we found any merit in American system we will buy that instead of s400. Just like we bought Chinook over russian helicopters and Rafale over fgfa.

 

[FalconSlayers]

The thing is Russians will never shoor down Israeli airborne assets because Israel is not a failed state like Syria, Yemen, Libya etc. Israeli military would retaliate and will only cause conflict between the two, had Israelis destroyed an S-400 battery after the airstrikes I would’ve had admitted that S-400 is impotent and useless.

 

[The Shrike]

You have comprehension issues. We obviously listened to American details about thaad and patriot and found them inadequate compared to s400.

If we found any merit in American system we will buy that instead of s400. Just like we bought Chinook over russian helicopters and Rafale over fgfa.

Us not buying the Thaad/Patriot is no proof that S400 is a better system. IMO we either could not afford the American systems, they did not meet our requirements OR the S400 deal was driven primarily by the need to pay hafta to Russia (I don't think we have ever seen $5 billion spent in a defence deal faster (that too with no ToT or offsets)). At least the patriot system is being used in Saudi-Yemen conflict, and we are able to see its efficacy (good or bad).

 

[IndianHawk]

Us not buying the Thaad/Patriot is no proof that S400 is a better system. IMO we either could not afford the American systems, they did not meet our requirements OR the S400 deal was driven primarily by the need to pay hafta to Russia (I don't think we have ever seen $5 billion spent in a defence deal faster (that too with no ToT or offsets)). At least the patriot system is being used in Saudi-Yemen conflict, and we are able to see its efficacy (good or bad).

Eh ! So we could pay 5.4 billion for s400 but we couldn't afford American stuff ??

We already have SAM equivalent to patriot in india and we already have BMD in very advanced stages . So we have a very deep insight into all these technologies and yet we went ahead with s400.

Regarding hafta payment to russians there are million other ways to pay for russian TOT in nuclear field .

 

[The Shrike]

Eh ! So we could pay 5.4 billion for s400 but we couldn't afford American stuff ??

We already have SAM equivalent to patriot in india and we already have BMD in very advanced stages . So we have a very deep insight into all these technologies and yet we went ahead with s400.

Regarding hafta payment to russians there are million other ways to pay for russian TOT in nuclear field .

Both Patriot (mostly) and THAAD are oriented towards BMD role, its radars, interceptor missiles are optimised for this role. And they are expensive, the latest PAC-3MSE missiles cost almost $4 million while THAAD interceptors cost as much as $10 million (from what i could find). IMO we are not deploying our own system (or doing it very slowly) because of cost reasons, even an indigenous one will be quite expensive given the large area we need to protect.
And I'm sceptical of any S400's BMD claims, especially beyond very short range ballistic missiles, specifications are very sketchy IMO we will only use it in SAM role. Either ways point remains that its still un-proven in either role, over the years I have learned to be sceptical of any over the top claims for Russian maal unless proven in the field.

 

[Knowitall]

Both Patriot (mostly) and THAAD are oriented towards BMD role, its radars, interceptor missiles are optimised for this role. And they are expensive, the latest PAC-3MSE missiles cost almost $4 million while THAAD interceptors cost as much as $10 million (from what i could find). IMO we are not deploying our own system (or doing it very slowly) because of cost reasons, even an indigenous one will be quite expensive given the large area we need to protect.
And I'm sceptical of any S400's BMD claims, especially beyond very short range ballistic missiles, specifications are very sketchy IMO we will only use it in SAM role. Either ways point remains that its still un-proven in either role, over the years I have learned to be sceptical of any over the top claims for Russian maal unless proven in the field.

Patriot is a shitty system.

The last time it was tasked with defending American soldiers 28 ended up day. It has also failed to intercept drones and missiles for the saudis as recently as 2019-20 period.

During the 1991 Gulf War, the public was led to believe the that the Patriot had near-perfect performance, intercepting 45 of 47 Scud missiles. The U.S. Army later revised that estimate down to about 50 percent — and even then, it expressed “higher” confidence in only about one-quarter of the cases. A pesky Congressional Research Service employee noted that if the Army had correctly applied its own assessment methodology consistently, the number would be far lower. (Reportedly that number was one — as in one lousy Scud missile downed.)

Our resident American slave will tell you otherwise but he is at the end of the day a slave. This of course does not prove the S-400 to be the best system but it we are to look at previous engagements like the Israel arab wars Russian air defence units have performed decently if we look at their price tags.

Another point to note is that American equipment comes with strings attached which can be a huge issue. What if for example America and pakistan are buddies again all of a sudden we can see our spare supply choked at the whims of US.

In the end indigenous systems are the way to go. If India wishes to be a credible regional power and later on a Global one we absolutely cannot depend on anybody.

 

[IndianHawk]

Both Patriot (mostly) and THAAD are oriented towards BMD role, its radars, interceptor missiles are optimised for this role. And they are expensive, the latest PAC-3MSE missiles cost almost $4 million while THAAD interceptors cost as much as $10 million (from what i could find). IMO we are not deploying our own system (or doing it very slowly) because of cost reasons, even an indigenous one will be quite expensive given the large area we need to protect.
And I'm sceptical of any S400's BMD claims, especially beyond very short range ballistic missiles, specifications are very sketchy IMO we will only use it in SAM role. Either ways point remains that its still un-proven in either role, over the years I have learned to be sceptical of any over the top claims for Russian maal unless proven in the field.

Sigh

we have multiple SAM systems developed in house. Akash NG, mrsam are ready and xrsam is advanced state of development.

Despite all that expertise do you really think IAF couldn't see if s400 works or not ??

Anyway I'm done with this topic. People believe what they want to believe.

 

[Covfefe]

Patriot is a shitty system.

The last time it was tasked with defending American soldiers 28 ended up day. It has also failed to intercept drones and missiles for the saudis as recently as 2019-20 period.

During the 1991 Gulf War, the public was led to believe the that the Patriot had near-perfect performance, intercepting 45 of 47 Scud missiles. The U.S. Army later revised that estimate down to about 50 percent — and even then, it expressed “higher” confidence in only about one-quarter of the cases. A pesky Congressional Research Service employee noted that if the Army had correctly applied its own assessment methodology consistently, the number would be far lower. (Reportedly that number was one — as in one lousy Scud missile downed.)

Our resident American slave will tell you otherwise but he is at the end of the day a slave. This of course does not prove the S-400 to be the best system but it we are to look at previous engagements like the Israel arab wars Russian air defence units have performed decently if we look at their price tags.

Another point to note is that American equipment comes with strings attached which can be a huge issue. What if for example America and pakistan are buddies again all of a sudden we can see our spare supply choked at the whims of US.

In the end indigenous systems are the way to go. If India wishes to be a credible regional power and later on a Global one we absolutely cannot depend on anybody.

And even when America and Pak were chummies, they had posted a guy on their military base to keep an eye on the usage of their hardware. Don't think anyone in India will agree to that- a resident class monitor

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

What big mistake on India's part.

But it was no surprise since Indian military establishment are most Soviet-India hangover...




Of course not. You have to defend S-400 because it's what India has. If India went for THAAD and Patriot then you'll be defending them instead.

But to put THAAD versus S-400 into a more objective perspective, consider China's reaction. China made a lot of hulabalo to US stationing THAAD in SoKor. China pressured SoKor to deny THAAD being station in SoKor close to China.

Was there a comment or did China even libby Russia to deny selling India S-400? None.

So there you go.

Because SK is Faaar smaller, economically and militarily, than India. Hence they can be bullied. What is china crying over India gonna do? Only make it look weak.

BTW CCP state media has already written articles about how india is "Destabilising" South Asia by buying S400.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

China not happy with arms supply, but Russia-India friendship unshakeable


Unshakable India-China friendship?

Just read what you wrote yourself and say if it makes any sense.

 

[The Shrike]

Sigh

we have multiple SAM systems developed in house. Akash NG, mrsam are ready and xrsam is advanced state of development.

Despite all that expertise do you really think IAF couldn't see if s400 works or not ??

Anyway I'm done with this topic. People believe what they want to believe.

I'm only questioning its BMD capabilities, which is the only parameter by which it can be compared against THAAD (and to a lesser extent Patriot).

And that we have bought Russian maal even while having the option of buying westerns is proof that Russian maal is better is a dubious claim, we have bought plenty of crap from them inspite of better western or even local options being available.

 

[The Shrike]

Patriot is a shitty system.

The last time it was tasked with defending American soldiers 28 ended up day. It has also failed to intercept drones and missiles for the saudis as recently as 2019-20 period.

During the 1991 Gulf War, the public was led to believe the that the Patriot had near-perfect performance, intercepting 45 of 47 Scud missiles. The U.S. Army later revised that estimate down to about 50 percent — and even then, it expressed “higher” confidence in only about one-quarter of the cases. A pesky Congressional Research Service employee noted that if the Army had correctly applied its own assessment methodology consistently, the number would be far lower. (Reportedly that number was one — as in one lousy Scud missile downed.)

Our resident American slave will tell you otherwise but he is at the end of the day a slave. This of course does not prove the S-400 to be the best system but it we are to look at previous engagements like the Israel arab wars Russian air defence units have performed decently if we look at their price tags.

Another point to note is that American equipment comes with strings attached which can be a huge issue. What if for example America and pakistan are buddies again all of a sudden we can see our spare supply choked at the whims of US.

In the end indigenous systems are the way to go. If India wishes to be a credible regional power and later on a Global one we absolutely cannot depend on anybody.

Gulf war definitely showed the limitations of early generation Patriots, but since then then have spent triple digit billion dollars on just ABM research and development. Latest generation Patriot interceptors and THAAD system is the result of that investment. Going by the real world performance shown in the field the success rate is nowhere close to 100% - but to claim that a system that has zero track record is better is is complete BS argument.
I'm not advocating for buying American systems, but by pet peeve is that we shelled out such a huge amount (probably more than what we have spent on Akash till date) so fast for direct imports from Russia when we had all the building blocks at home (AESA radars, seekers etc.).

 

[ezsasa]

I'm not advocating for buying American systems, but by pet peeve is that we shelled out such a huge amount (probably more than what we have spent on Akash till date) so fast for direct imports from Russia when we had all the building blocks at home (AESA radars, seekers etc.).

It looks that way today, but will have to take into consideration when S-400 was being negotiated/evaluated i.e 2015. in 2015, 2016 DRDO was still being called dodo here at DFI.