S-400 performance in Syria = Paper Tiger

asianobserve

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Lol. Whenever houthis pound saudis with BMs, saudis get pounded. Patriot has failed repeatedly to intercept even a fraction of the hits. 😂
Is that the reason why Saudis are begging for more Patriot?

Saudi pleads with US for missile defence resupply: Report

And what happened when the US recently relocated its Patriot out of Saudi Arabia?

Saudi prince says the U.S. should not withdraw Patriot missiles from Saudi Arabia
:creepy:

Why not run to Russia's magical super duper S-400 then if Patriot is such a failure in Saudi? Money is not an issue for the Saudis.

Saudi Arabia has no interest in the S-400, says Russian industry official

See what Rostec sales person is saying?

:bplease:
 

SwordOfDarkness

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Is that the reason why Saudis are begging for more Patriot?

Saudi pleads with US for missile defence resupply: Report

And what happened when the US recently relocated its Patriot out of Saudi Arabia?

Saudi prince says the U.S. should not withdraw Patriot missiles from Saudi Arabia
:creepy:

Why not run to Russia's magical super duper S-400 then if Patriot is such a failure in Saudi? Money is not an issue for the Saudis.

Saudi Arabia has no interest in the S-400, says Russian industry official

See what Rostec sales person is saying?

:bplease:
Saudis are american pets, look up Osama Bin Laden. Do you think saudis will take s400 after what US did to turkey? Entire Saudi runs on american money, american corporations, and american weapons.

Report would be akin to saying "Iran has no interest in buying Patriot missile systems : is the US losing its lead?"
 

asianobserve

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Saudis are american pets, look up Osama Bin Laden. Do you think saudis will take s400 after what US did to turkey? Entire Saudi runs on american money, american corporations, and american weapons.

Report would be akin to saying "Iran has no interest in buying Patriot missile systems : is the US losing its lead?"

You're misinformed about Saudis. They buy from other sources what the US is unwilling or firbids it from having like ballistic missiles from China. Now it was learned that Saudi has developed a new ballistic missile with Chinese help.
 

asianobserve

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technically i find India placed in good zone if it has all( the western defence + Russian defence + Indigenous defence)

That's a Frankenstein that will not help India. As the 0atriot experience will tell you doing AD (shooting down planes is easier) but ABM defense is very difficult while anti drones and cruise missile defense is extremely difficult. You need a seamlessly integrated air defense system.
 

blackjack

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Literally the arguements of above from said user.

Its turkeys fault on their part for purchasing S-400 over 100 F-35, THAADS or PAC deal,

Its indias fault on their part for purchasing S-400 over THAADS or PAC deal.

I think even Israel hated the fucking PACS-3 system, coping is not an arguement.
 

asianobserve

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Because they're kinda stuck with the US systems and the hypocritic Congress had blocked weapons sales to them


The Saudis can easily buy Russian or European AD systems. They have the money. But why stick with Patriot if it does not work?
 

Covfefe

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The Saudis can easily buy Russian or European AD systems. They have the money. But why stick with Patriot if it does not work?
With the change in leadership is Saudi, things will change. They're stuck with American weapons because they are stuck with them for security of the country- they may choose to go the Qatar/UAE way in terms of diversification
 

blackjack

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@asianobserve

Since this is a S-400 air defense related kind of thread, we need sort of a better way to gauge their air defense strength.

S-400 Tier 1" 2007 radars NEVSKY BASTION, NEVSKY BASTION. MILITARY-TECHNICAL COLLECTION. HISTORY OF HONORED WEAPONS, FOREIGN MILITARY EQUIPMENT. MILITARY-TECHNICAL COLLECTION. HISTORY OF DOMESTIC WEAPONS, FOREIGN MILITARY EQUIPMENT (nevskii-bastion.ru)

S-400 Tier 2: 2015 radars available to export in 2020 Integrated multifunctional radar system 55Zh6ME | Catalog Rosoboronexport (roe.ru)

S-400 Tier 3: which is to have better performance than the Nebo-M or Tier 2 radars. Russia developing radar for detecting hypersonic targets - Military & Defense - TASS

Than of course if we go further on upgrades there is the S-500 to engage targets 600kms away, and S-550 to solely rely on satellite and hypersonic target interceptions, but I think they fucked up the news report on the S-550 with the A-235 systems

Pantsir: it seems that there were orders in 2000 to UAE on wiki so I am wonder what kind of performance specs were they?

Pantsir-S1 Anti-aircraft missile and gun system "Pantsir-S1" | Catalog Rosoboronexport (roe.ru)

Pantsir-S1M Anti-aircraft missile and gun system "Pantsir-S1M" | Catalog Rosoboronexport (roe.ru) Russia’s upgraded Pantsyr anti-aircraft missile/gun system can fight any strike drones - Military & Defense - TASS

Pantsir-S2: this is what they keep to themselves.

Pantsir-SM: basically twice the radar and missile range of S1, interceptor missiles are twice as fast, targets it can deal with fly at speeds 2km/s while previous versions are 1km/s.

Pantsir Quad pack in developement: makes it possible to have 4 times the amount of current missiles used and probably why Morfei got abandoned since no news has come out of it yet.

(1) Jon Hawkes on Twitter: "As rumoured for a while, new small diameter anti-UAV missile for Pantsir in the flesh. Intended as a lighter and cheaper countermeasure for low and slow UAV, readily installed in place of one or more standaard 57E6-series tubes as needed, each tube holding 4 of the new missiles https://t.co/5uVGjbEAxh" / Twitter

to deal with real small drones thiis radar is in developement to ptobably assist the quadpack design

https://tass.com/defense/1111675

"The RTI Joint Stock Company, a developer and producer of high-tech products, will create new radars that operate in terahertz frequency range and are capable of pinpointing the smallest drone, RTI CEO Pavel Laptayev told TASS.

"The terahertz technology [featuring radio wave length below one millimeter] will be converted into a product within five years. These radars can detect small drones, and function in space," Laptayev explained.

According to the CEO, the submillimeter radar enables a beam to be aimed on a relatively small object with extraordinary precision, impossible for other ranges, and identify its shape, material, speed and trajectory.

Laptayev admitted that RTI managed to achieve significant success in the terahertz range only in 2019, with the company mastering the components for such stations, and learning to identify objects and materials. According to the CEO, the RTI specialists now work on radar software that would swiftly and effectively classify a target and relay this information to the operator.


Than of course there is potential of growth in the photonic radar field.

https://rg.ru/2018/04/08/revoliuciia-v-tehnike-lokacii-v-rossii-sozdaetsia-radiofotonnaia-rls.html

For example, the basis of radar missile defense systems and tracking of space objects are huge radar complexes. The premises in which the equipment is located are multi-storey buildings. The use of photonic technologies will allow you to fit all the control and data processing systems in much smaller dimensions - literally in several rooms. At the same time, the technical capabilities of radars to detect even small objects at a distance of thousands of kilometers will only increase. Moreover, due to the use of photonic technologies on the radar screen, there will be not a mark of the target, but its image, which is unattainable by classical radar. That is, the operator instead of the usual glowing point will see what is really flying - an airplane, a rocket, a flock of birds or a meteorite, it is worth repeating, even thousands of kilometers from the radar.

On the screen of the photon radar will appear not the mark of the target, but its image, which is unattainable by classical radar.

Now all radar systems - military and civilian - operate in a strictly defined frequency range, which complicates the technical design and leads to a variety of radar nomenclature. Photonic radars will achieve the highest degree of unification. They are able to instantly rebuild in a very wide range of operating frequencies - from meter values to millimeters.

The characteristics of the S-500 Prometheus air defense system were announced
It has long been no secret that the so-called stealth aircraft are clearly visible in the meter range, but most accurately their coordinates are better given by stations of centimeter and millimeter ranges. Therefore, in air defense systems, meter stations with very large antennas work simultaneously, and more compact ones - centimeters. But the photonic radar, scanning space in the long frequency range, will easily detect the same "invisible" and, instantly adjusting to a broadband signal and high frequency, will determine its exact coordinates in height and range.


https://rg.ru/2018/04/22/radiofotonika-stanet-drajverom-sovremennoj-radioelektroniki.html

Developments in the field of radiophotonics go in several directions. Is there anything out there? Absolutely. For example, in the Research Institute of Long-Range Radio Communication under the leadership of Alexei Shulunov, a prototype of a radiophotonic radar has already been assembled. This is an X-band radar with an optical heterodyne, which can be rebuilt in the widest range of radio waves - from meter frequencies to millimeter.

According to experts, it is the ability of radiophotonic radars to instantly rebuild in the widest frequency range that will change the entire radar technology, including the construction of various radar complexes.


The bottom line is India and Turkey still make these purchases and still get additional batches despite both having their own independent air defense projects on the side, so it seems they do not give a shit about the so called israel air strikes since of course I told you 1000 times has nothing to do with the efficiency of the system. I dont know which tier versions of S-400 they have received in which they declined purchases from the U.S. according to what people are saying here, but if such systems are useless than of course why would the Russians themselves continue improving their own air defenses?

At best most of the Pantsir-S1s were used in conflicts hell there might have been versions that existed before 2008 in combat. Sure there are still disagreements about the 103 tomahawks none intercepted while the other side says 70 something. But if Israel stated in their report that their 1st wave of missiles fucked up but the glidebombs from F-35s on 2nd wave managed to hit buildings while russia on that same day reported 14 of 16 intercepted that seems to state they were efficient. Of course the TB2 vs pantsir meme image showing the evidence and explanation for each favors the pantsir system in terms of cost comparision losses despite turks having a habit of overexagerating their capabilities all little too much or way more than the U.S. or Russia like they even wanted to take credit that they were used against a 1980s S-300 while it was israel's kamikazee drone that did the job and some non-existant pantsirs or modern EW systems that Armenia was too broke to afford themselves.

Use this post as an example of how to properly criticize air defenses, this post will also help you understand what is currently old, what is recent, what is new, and what is coming out in the future.


 

asianobserve

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All air defence systems have deficiencies, swedish report basically says s400 is not invincible-But all its argument hold even for patriot, and indeed more strongly.
Patriot is continuously tested since 1990 and as a result continuously upgraded both hardware and software. S-400 on the other hand is green and vastly comoromised since potential enemies, anyone who can afford them really, have them. It's not the case of Patriot.
 

SwordOfDarkness

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Patriot is continuously tested since 1990 and as a result continuously upgraded both hardware and software. S-400 on the other hand is green and vastly comoromised since potential enemies, anyone who can afford them really, have them. It's not the case of Patriot.
S400 is an iteration of s200 (and later s300) which started from the 1960s and have been evolving and getting better. Your point of "Old is gold" is moot.
 

SwordOfDarkness

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anyone who can afford them really, have them.
So I should be seeing a battery with Iran, Saudis, UK, US, France, Germany, Taiwan, Japan, Australia, and so on?

No, because russia sells to those which are not and will not be in a direct competition with them, and who are politically aligned with them. Same for american patriot. Money isnt the only factor.
 

asianobserve

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So I should be seeing a battery with Iran, Saudis, UK, US, France, Germany, Taiwan, Japan, Australia, and so on?

No, because russia sells to those which are not and will not be in a direct competition with them, and who are politically aligned with them. Same for american patriot. Money isnt the only factor.

No doubt UK, Germany, etc can afford S-400 but they will not buy it even uf there's objection from the US. There are better Western counterparts.

Turkey is no Russian ally and is in competition with it in their region and yet Russia sold it S-400. How sure is Russia that Turkey will not reveal to its NATO allies the secrets of S-400? Russia simply does not care as it is desperate to sell.
 

asianobserve

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S400 is an iteration of s200 (and later s300) which started from the 1960s and have been evolving and getting better. Your point of "Old is gold" is moot.
I did not say old is good. I said continuously battle tested and upgraded. The US is continuously gathering electronic signatures and performance of enemies and weakspots of Patriot.
 

asianobserve

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Since this is a S-400 air defense related kind of thread, we need sort of a better way to gauge their air defense strength.

S-400 Tier 1" 2007 radars NEVSKY BASTION, NEVSKY BASTION. MILITARY-TECHNICAL COLLECTION. HISTORY OF HONORED WEAPONS, FOREIGN MILITARY EQUIPMENT. MILITARY-TECHNICAL COLLECTION. HISTORY OF DOMESTIC WEAPONS, FOREIGN MILITARY EQUIPMENT (nevskii-bastion.ru)

S-400 Tier 2: 2015 radars available to export in 2020 Integrated multifunctional radar system 55Zh6ME | Catalog Rosoboronexport (roe.ru)

S-400 Tier 3: which is to have better performance than the Nebo-M or Tier 2 radars. Russia developing radar for detecting hypersonic targets - Military & Defense - TASS

Than of course if we go further on upgrades there is the S-500 to engage targets 600kms away, and S-550 to solely rely on satellite and hypersonic target interceptions, but I think they fucked up the news report on the S-550 with the A-235 systems

Pantsir: it seems that there were orders in 2000 to UAE on wiki so I am wonder what kind of performance specs were they?

Pantsir-S1 Anti-aircraft missile and gun system "Pantsir-S1" | Catalog Rosoboronexport (roe.ru)

Pantsir-S1M Anti-aircraft missile and gun system "Pantsir-S1M" | Catalog Rosoboronexport (roe.ru) Russia’s upgraded Pantsyr anti-aircraft missile/gun system can fight any strike drones - Military & Defense - TASS

Pantsir-S2: this is what they keep to themselves.

Pantsir-SM: basically twice the radar and missile range of S1, interceptor missiles are twice as fast, targets it can deal with fly at speeds 2km/s while previous versions are 1km/s.

Pantsir Quad pack in developement: makes it possible to have 4 times the amount of current missiles used and probably why Morfei got abandoned since no news has come out of it yet.

(1) Jon Hawkes on Twitter: "As rumoured for a while, new small diameter anti-UAV missile for Pantsir in the flesh. Intended as a lighter and cheaper countermeasure for low and slow UAV, readily installed in place of one or more standaard 57E6-series tubes as needed, each tube holding 4 of the new missiles https://t.co/5uVGjbEAxh" / Twitter

to deal with real small drones thiis radar is in developement to ptobably assist the quadpack design

https://tass.com/defense/1111675

"The RTI Joint Stock Company, a developer and producer of high-tech products, will create new radars that operate in terahertz frequency range and are capable of pinpointing the smallest drone, RTI CEO Pavel Laptayev told TASS.

"The terahertz technology [featuring radio wave length below one millimeter] will be converted into a product within five years. These radars can detect small drones, and function in space," Laptayev explained.

According to the CEO, the submillimeter radar enables a beam to be aimed on a relatively small object with extraordinary precision, impossible for other ranges, and identify its shape, material, speed and trajectory.

Laptayev admitted that RTI managed to achieve significant success in the terahertz range only in 2019, with the company mastering the components for such stations, and learning to identify objects and materials. According to the CEO, the RTI specialists now work on radar software that would swiftly and effectively classify a target and relay this information to the operator.


Than of course there is potential of growth in the photonic radar field.

https://rg.ru/2018/04/08/revoliuciia-v-tehnike-lokacii-v-rossii-sozdaetsia-radiofotonnaia-rls.html

For example, the basis of radar missile defense systems and tracking of space objects are huge radar complexes. The premises in which the equipment is located are multi-storey buildings. The use of photonic technologies will allow you to fit all the control and data processing systems in much smaller dimensions - literally in several rooms. At the same time, the technical capabilities of radars to detect even small objects at a distance of thousands of kilometers will only increase. Moreover, due to the use of photonic technologies on the radar screen, there will be not a mark of the target, but its image, which is unattainable by classical radar. That is, the operator instead of the usual glowing point will see what is really flying - an airplane, a rocket, a flock of birds or a meteorite, it is worth repeating, even thousands of kilometers from the radar.

On the screen of the photon radar will appear not the mark of the target, but its image, which is unattainable by classical radar.

Now all radar systems - military and civilian - operate in a strictly defined frequency range, which complicates the technical design and leads to a variety of radar nomenclature. Photonic radars will achieve the highest degree of unification. They are able to instantly rebuild in a very wide range of operating frequencies - from meter values to millimeters.

The characteristics of the S-500 Prometheus air defense system were announced
It has long been no secret that the so-called stealth aircraft are clearly visible in the meter range, but most accurately their coordinates are better given by stations of centimeter and millimeter ranges. Therefore, in air defense systems, meter stations with very large antennas work simultaneously, and more compact ones - centimeters. But the photonic radar, scanning space in the long frequency range, will easily detect the same "invisible" and, instantly adjusting to a broadband signal and high frequency, will determine its exact coordinates in height and range.


https://rg.ru/2018/04/22/radiofotonika-stanet-drajverom-sovremennoj-radioelektroniki.html

Developments in the field of radiophotonics go in several directions. Is there anything out there? Absolutely. For example, in the Research Institute of Long-Range Radio Communication under the leadership of Alexei Shulunov, a prototype of a radiophotonic radar has already been assembled. This is an X-band radar with an optical heterodyne, which can be rebuilt in the widest range of radio waves - from meter frequencies to millimeter.

According to experts, it is the ability of radiophotonic radars to instantly rebuild in the widest frequency range that will change the entire radar technology, including the construction of various radar complexes.


The bottom line is India and Turkey still make these purchases and still get additional batches despite both having their own independent air defense projects on the side, so it seems they do not give a shit about the so called israel air strikes since of course I told you 1000 times has nothing to do with the efficiency of the system. I dont know which tier versions of S-400 they have received in which they declined purchases from the U.S. according to what people are saying here, but if such systems are useless than of course why would the Russians themselves continue improving their own air defenses?

At best most of the Pantsir-S1s were used in conflicts hell there might have been versions that existed before 2008 in combat. Sure there are still disagreements about the 103 tomahawks none intercepted while the other side says 70 something. But if Israel stated in their report that their 1st wave of missiles fucked up but the glidebombs from F-35s on 2nd wave managed to hit buildings while russia on that same day reported 14 of 16 intercepted that seems to state they were efficient. Of course the TB2 vs pantsir meme image showing the evidence and explanation for each favors the pantsir system in terms of cost comparision losses despite turks having a habit of overexagerating their capabilities all little too much or way more than the U.S. or Russia like they even wanted to take credit that they were used against a 1980s S-300 while it was israel's kamikazee drone that did the job and some non-existant pantsirs or modern EW systems that Armenia was too broke to afford themselves.

Use this post as an example of how to properly criticize air defenses, this post will also help you understand what is currently old, what is recent, what is new, and what is coming out in the future.

Sophisticated weapons are like icebergs. Most if their data is submerged in secrecy. It's pointless to be debating about technical specs whe 1) we don't kniw if they're accurate, and 2) I'm not an engineer.

What is easily observable though is battle experience and general state of the technology of the maker or country producing it.
 

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