Russia Ukraine War 2022

[GaudaNaresh]

India is a large country with a stong economy. Our current leadership is stong and capable to deal with western pressure. IMO current gov will not abandon their nutral policy.

Thinking that some outside power will come and give us money and help is copium for failed states like Pakistan. Their demoralised population on PDF is always seeking outside help for everything.


The reality of our relationship with USA

Every country exists for their own interest. US is no different. Going in US camp at this point will result into massive deindustrialization of India because one the biggest problem US has with India is import tariffs. Our agricultural will also be effected as Americans have a problem with Indian farm subsidies and food dumping restrictions. They have just recently raised issues against domestic RuPay card and UPI because it hurts their Visa and MasterCard. Just 3 years ago Trump terminated GSP status for India which costed Indian economy billions. And that was a friendly gov.

Another area where US has problems with India is military tech and nuclear tech. They have problems with our ICBMs, air defence and anti-sat programs.

America doesn't respect Indian territorial water claims in Indian ocean and regularly violates it. In their maps J&K is in Pakistan and Arunachal is in China. Khalistan movement is operating from western countries in their full knowledge. Even after repeated calls by India they haven't done anything to stop it.

US also has an old problem agaist Hinduism and Indian nationalism. They are funding churches in maoist regions and north east to convert local population and even support armed insurgencies. Their state controlled media regularly airs anti-India and anti-Hindu propaganda. Their billionaires like Soros have openly stated to remove Modi from power. Current US administration has an on record state policy of "Subnational Diplomacy" with India.



This is the reality of our relationship with America. But some posters here think that if we jump into American camp they will help us economically and give us sensitive technology to make India a superpower.

these are precisely why India's greatest enemy is USA. Its civilisational enemy of India, intent on erasing Indian civilisation & nationhood and restarting colonialism 2.0
Not after some land grab and the end, like China.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

They were victims of the circumstances. We like to simplify it as a fault of just a few individuals but it was a systemic collapse.

Yeltsin was a product of circumstances, but gorbachev was a pucca idiot. its basic common knowledlge that if you are an authoritarian govt and your enemy is not, while the enemy is 5x richer than you, the moment you go democratic or free press, your enemy will use its money to break your country.

The chinese learnt from this, is why they are hell bent on getting rich before they even begin to contemplate free press in their country

 

[couchPotato]

Tejas Mk-2 will never be a mainstay of Navy fighter. it will be acquired by the navy in small numbers, simply to keep the active aircraft number as high as possible, since India will have a tiny naval fighter wing ( owing to 2, max 3 medium-small sized carriers). Its main role will be to fill in the gaps when the Mig-29 KUB or Rafale-M or SH goes for maintanance. This is because the navy has made it clear that it will NOT make a single engine jet the mainstay of their naval wing, which no country on the planet has done since ww2

Make an Mk-3 with dual turbines then?

Tejas isn't as good as the imported stuff but unless we dog food the aircraft, it'll never improve and we'd be at the mercy of other nations.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Make an Mk-3 with dual turbines then?

Tejas isn't as good as the imported stuff but unless we dog food the aircraft, it'll never improve and we'd be at the mercy of other nations.

I think thats what ORCA or whatever it is, was intended for, but India/DRDO has chosen to focus more on Tejas MK-2 and the AMCA stealth clone of Rafale first.

Naval wing is of lower priority, since by India's best case projections, Indian naval fighter wing will be maximum 60-65 aircrafts by 2040. The need to indegenize and ramp up production for IAF is a far bigger priority

 

[GaudaNaresh]

The thing is that it is proven beyond doubt that western weapons are far superior,better built quality and have a higher chances of survivability as compared to the Russian ones.
Almost all the western weapon system operated by India have proven to be game changes,be it hunters and canberras in the past or Mirage,rafales,P8I's of today.

No. Western equipment has never had durability or survivability advantage over the rooskie equipment, its strengths are precision, speed and data integration. Even down to frigging sub machine guns & assault rifles.

Soviet/Russian advantage is cost, durability and survivability. these are the basics of the two doctrine's design differences.
Even down to F-22 vs Su-30. if they fire their cannon at each other, the F-22 will die far faster and quicker with far less hits than the Su-30. Same with their ships, their subs, etc.

 

[couchPotato]

Yeltsin was a product of circumstances, but gorbachev was a pucca idiot. its basic common knowledlge that if you are an authoritarian govt and your enemy is not, while the enemy is 5x richer than you, the moment you go democratic or free press, your enemy will use its money to break your country.

The chinese learnt from this, is why they are hell bent on getting rich before they even begin to contemplate free press in their country

Right! for all the pomp and prestige of a democracy, imo it's very easy to sow mayhem in there compared to other systems.

 

[couchPotato]

No. Western equipment has never had durability or survivability advantage over the rooskie equipment, its strengths are precision, speed and data integration. Even down to frigging sub machine guns & assault rifles.

Soviet/Russian advantage is cost, durability and survivability. these are the basics of the two doctrine's design differences.
Even down to F-22 vs Su-30. if they fire their cannon at each other, the F-22 will die far faster and quicker with far less hits than the Su-30. Same with their ships, their subs, etc.

I think this is somewhat reminiscent of the tech doctrine of WW2 era germany and Ussr tanks. Tech marvels vs simplicity.

 

[Akim]

Why Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons ? If it still had them Russia wouldn't have dared to attack .In hindsight it was a terrible idea .

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Ambiguous question. I am not a supporter of any WMD. Ukraine got a powerful part of the Soviet army. It was necessary to optimize and modernize it (the army), but we only reduced it. A modern army, even without WMD, is a serious deterrent.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

I think this is somewhat reminiscent of the tech doctrine of WW2 era germany and Ussr tanks. Tech marvels vs simplicity.

Russian/soviet doctrine for aything they make is ' is it a ship or a sub ? Da ? well, it has to be able to break through the ice of Archangelsk AND perform well in warmer waters of mediterranean. Is it a plane or a tank ? Da ? It has to do well in burning deserts of kazakhstan and -50 of Siberia'. This is why their shit is so overbuilt, bulky and tough. Coz their doctrine is 'must be able to fight in these extreme temperature ranges'.

America is all about 'we need to make the perfect surgical scapel that will make 2 micron by 2 micron cut and will be perfectly suited to the job, but be very easy to break and cost 2 tonnes of gold'.

This is why, even in vietnam, American GIs ditched their M-16s for AK-47s. Ak-47 has larger callibre bullets, meaning it can shoot through bush much better and as a GI vet friend of mine ( Canadian) once said - the best thing about AK-47 is, its a hunk of metal and hunk of wood, not hunk of metal and plastic. You can use it as a club and beat people over the head with it, try it with M-16 and you will make 3 pieces of M-16 in 1 minute flat.

 

[couchPotato]

This is why, even in vietnam, American GIs ditched their M-16s for AK-47s. Ak-47 has larger callibre bullets, meaning it can shoot through bush much better and as a GI vet friend of mine ( Canadian) once said - the best thing about AK-47 is, its a hunk of metal and hunk of wood, not hunk of metal and plastic. You can use it as a club and beat people over the head with it, try it with M-16 and you will make 3 pieces of M-16 in 1 minute flat.

It was an early version of the M16 and weren't cleaned as often as they should be. That's what I heard about the vietnam era yankee gun. Not questioning the Kalashnikov's reliability there but my point is that it's more nuanced.

You could club people with the ak but how often would it be used in that role? if you're gonna use the gun like a gun most of the time, things like ammo quantity (because of the smaller calibre), accuracy (cause of the tighter tolerances) and ease of hauling (low weight composites) would help you a lot more. For the off chance you need to get into a fistfight, you always have a tactical spade.

 

[saneel2014]

Today is the 8th anniversary of declaration of independence of DPR. I guess, russia's initial plan was to complete its strategic objectives within 1 month so that after negotiations and cleanup, they can celebrate this day properly...but it failed badly

 

[angryIndian]

India has won multiple wars with those "proven dud" Russian weapons. Those "proven dud" weapons is the reason why pakis and chinkis have nightmares.

To be fair Soviets had a competitive advantage till the 70's,after that things started falling apart for them as their economy started floundering.

Russian technology in today's era can be best described by what i saw about a captured Russian combat drone.
The cameras were from a commercial DSLR,the electronics from the Chinese DJI or from America and the motor from a japanese auto company. Russian arms industry has been long struggling for the past two decades because of their inability to compete with newer players in the market,massive outward migration of talent and shrinking of their customer base.

Chinese technology is unparalleled? they use same soviet era legacy weapons as India. Not only that most of their "unparalleled technology" is 3rd rate copies of old soviet stuff.

China has been investing heavily in Military R&D....They did start with making cheap copies of Soviet/Russian equipment but in recent times they have improved a lot and in some areas are ahead of even the US.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

It was an early version of the M16 and weren't cleaned as often as they should be. That's what I heard about the vietnam era yankee gun. Not questioning the Kalashnikov's reliability there but my point is that it's more nuanced.

You could club people with the ak but how often would it be used in that role? if you're gonna use the gun like a gun most of the time, things like ammo quantity (because of the smaller calibre), accuracy (cause of the tighter tolerances) and ease of hauling (low weight composites) would help you a lot more. For the off chance you need to get into a fistfight, you always have a tactical spade.

very common in vietnam apparently, because of dense foliage. the M-16 does not go through bushes nearly as well as the heavier russian round and there were plenty of instances where patrols ran into vietcong and it ended up in fisticuffs.

So yes, its very terrain dependent but jungle warfare is classic case of 'oh shit, hey man- BLAM' kinda warfare.

 

[Longewala]

I wish we could remind superiority of western maal to the dead pilots and their families who died flying these coffins in the last 20 peacetime years.

The most unsafe jet seen on the Indian subcontinent is the F-104.

Mig-21s were pretty safe and sturdy until the IAF decided they would rather fly 50 year old planes than order Tejas.

 

[The Shrike]

Top notch reporting from regional news channel stright from the war zone.

Spoiler

 

[samsaptaka]

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Any update on this idiot ? I pity his parents, his mother's name is Jhansi Lakshmi who we all know is a great historic leader who fought for her country. What is this adrenaline junkie doing ? Dying for what cause ? If he did not get selected in the army, there were other ways to serve his country.

 

[saneel2014]

Top notch reporting from regional news channel stright from the war zone.

Spoiler

We are lucky we didnt have such genius minds back when 9/11 happened...else we would have got similar reporting

 

[angryIndian]

No. Western equipment has never had durability or survivability advantage over the rooskie equipment, its strengths are precision, speed and data integration. Even down to frigging sub machine guns & assault rifles.

Soviet/Russian advantage is cost, durability and survivability. these are the basics of the two doctrine's design differences.
Even down to F-22 vs Su-30. if they fire their cannon at each other, the F-22 will die far faster and quicker with far less hits than the Su-30. Same with their ships, their subs, etc.

There will be no dogfight between a SU-30 and a F22 and by the time an F22 appears on the formers Radar,the Sukhoi would already have been in flames.

Having worked with Caterpillar inc,Siemens,General Electric...one thing that is common about them is that they are very particular about GMP(good manufacturing practices) and Quality control.They spend a hell lot in R&D and testing.The Russians are well known for cutting corners especially in design and testing.

 

[bongoboy]

Top notch reporting from regional news channel stright from the war zone.

Spoiler

This is so embarrassing.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

There will be no dogfight between a SU-30 and a F22 and by the time an F22 appears on the formers Radar,the Sukhoi would already have been in flames.

LOL. No. This is true if and only if you are fighting over neutral grounds. if you are fighting in my air space, after i have saturated it with ground and space-based radar, your fancypants stealth aircraft is visible. Dont forget, Russia provided proof of tracking F-35s in Syria couple of years ago via their space based radar.

Having worked with Caterpillar inc,Siemens,General Electric...one thing that is common about them is that they are very particular about GMP(good manufacturing practices) and Quality control.They spend a hell lot in R&D and testing.The Russians are well known for cutting corners especially in design and testing.

No. Thats typical yankee propaganda. Yankee products have been substandard for a very long time, especially in consumer articles and heavy machinery. in consumer products, made in America label means less quality than Made in China these days.
most of American R&D spending is on lining their pockets of their bloated corporate structures.

We drink from the same pond, its just that i havent lost my mind like you have via western propaganda.