Project P15B Visakhapatnam class destroyer

[johnj]

~10 years to deliver 4 Project-15B vessels.
~11 years to deliver 7 Project-17A vessels.

Efficiency and productivity is increasing with time.

P15B faced delays due to Covid-19 also.

Exactly. Things are definitely moving in the right direction, albeit slower than needed but at least they are moving.

In order to achieve the speed of China, Korea and Japan, our shipyards need a continuous flow of big orders.

Absolutely. This practice of placing orders piecemeal needs to be discarded ASAP.

LOL
You both missed the fact that
4 Project-15B vessels build by MDL &
7 Project-17A vessels build by MDL and GRSE
Anyways, 6 years for ddg & <6 / = 5 years for ffg [2027/4 boats order].
10 years to deliver 4 Project-15B vessels
10 years to deliver 4 Project-17A vessels
08 years to deliver 3 Project-17A vessels
Ist ddg took 10 years to build & last ffg need 5 years

 

[Blood+]

LOL
You both missed the fact that
4 Project-15B vessels build by MDL &
7 Project-17A vessels build by MDL and GRSE
Anyways, 6 years for ddg & <6 / = 5 years for ffg [2027/4 boats order].
10 years to deliver 4 Project-15B vessels
10 years to deliver 4 Project-17A vessels
08 years to deliver 3 Project-17A vessels
Ist ddg took 10 years to build & last ffg need 5 years

Sorry, but couldn't catch a single thing of what you said. What are you trying to say??

 

[johnj]

Sorry, but couldn't catch a single thing of what you said. What are you trying to say??

In simple, MDL need/took 10 years to build 4 Project-15B vessels and 11 years to build 4 Project-17A vessels
for ex, a[one] person can builds 4 mbt in 10 years and 2 persons can build 7 mbt in 11 years, which means efficiency is decreasing not increasing, and after 1.5 decade, the same first persons[MDL] need 12 to build 4mbtA [4 Project-15C] vessels or 15~20 years to build NGMBT[Project-18]

You missed the fact that all Project-15B were build by MDL, and Project-17A is build by both MDL and GRSE at same time, and MDL only building only 4 Project-17A - both of yours calculations make zero sense

Now if you consider time took by MDL to build 1 Project-15B, then it is similar or greater than[3 to 12 months] to 1 Project-17A, means there is some efficacy, improvement considering small order, ie 4 for MDL and 3 for GRSE

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 Project-15A = MDL ~ 13 years
4 Project-15B = MDL ~ 11 years
4 Project-17A = MDL ~ 10 years
3 Project-17A = GRSE ~ 08 years
2 Triput class = GSL ~ 05 years
Project 17B ???
4 Project 18 = ????
4 Project 18 = ????

 

[Blood+]

In simple, MDL need/took 10 years to build 4 Project-15B vessels and 11 years to build 4 Project-17A vessels
for ex, a[one] person can builds 4 mbt in 10 years and 2 persons can build 7 mbt in 11 years, which means efficiency is decreasing not increasing, and after 1.5 decade, the same first persons[MDL] need 12 to build 4mbtA [4 Project-15C] vessels or 15~20 years to build NGMBT[Project-18]

You missed the fact that all Project-15B were build by MDL, and Project-17A is build by both MDL and GRSE at same time, and MDL only building only 4 Project-17A - both of yours calculations make zero sense

Now if you consider time took by MDL to build 1 Project-15B, then it is similar or greater than[3 to 12 months] to 1 Project-17A, means there is some efficacy, improvement considering small order, ie 4 for MDL and 3 for GRSE

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 Project-15A = MDL ~ 13 years
4 Project-15B = MDL ~ 11 years
4 Project-17A = MDL ~ 10 years
3 Project-17A = GRSE ~ 08 years
2 Triput class = GSL ~ 05 years
Project 17B ???
4 Project 18 = ????
4 Project 18 = ????

So, what's your point??

 

[johnj]

So, what's your point??

You missed every thing happing in MDL or IN shipbuilding
Don't compare time required for completion of manufacturing of total order with one unit
FYI, currently we need 5~6 years for manufacture 1 ffg/ddg if everything works smoothly

 

[AnantS]

So, what's your point??

he is just saying efficince is decreasing. order was split between multiple shipyards hence it looks like they built fast. but individually seen there is nothing to write home about. @johnj correct me.

 

[SKC]

LOL
You both missed the fact that
4 Project-15B vessels build by MDL &
7 Project-17A vessels build by MDL and GRSE
Anyways, 6 years for ddg & <6 / = 5 years for ffg [2027/4 boats order].
10 years to deliver 4 Project-15B vessels
10 years to deliver 4 Project-17A vessels
08 years to deliver 3 Project-17A vessels
Ist ddg took 10 years to build & last ffg need 5 years

I did not miss any fact. We were not discussing which Shipyard is build which vessel.

 

[SKC]

he is just saying efficince is decreasing. order was split between multiple shipyards hence it looks like they built fast. but individually seen there is nothing to write home about. @johnj correct me.

We are discussing the total output from the country rather than output from Single shipyard.
International figures give the total National Output not the output per shipyard.

If MDL gets order of only 4 vessels then they will take their own sweet time. But I am happy that with two we are getting more ships in same time period.

 

[johnj]

he is just saying efficince is decreasing. order was split between multiple shipyards hence it looks like they built fast. but individually seen there is nothing to write home about. @johnj correct me.

Yes, mostly, but actually the efficiency is increasing if you consider time required to build a 7000T+ boat, but not so good if you consider total nos, it is mainly due to overload of MDL

Its best to consider p15b, first boat took 9 years, last one less than 6 years, same time frame applied to p17a, I'm hoping MDL can complete construction ahead of that timeframe, similar to Imphal
MDL took 11+ years to complete 1st p15a, first p15b took 9- years and need 6- years for last p15b, and that is great efficiency considering 4[small order]

 

[SKC]

Yes, mostly, but actually the efficiency is increasing if you consider time required to build a 7000T+ boat, but not so good if you consider total nos, it is mainly due to overload of MDL

Its best to consider p15b, first boat took 9 years, last one less than 6 years, same time frame applied to p17a, I'm hoping MDL can complete construction ahead of that timeframe, similar to Imphal
MDL took 11+ years to complete 1st p15a, first p15b took 9- years and need 6- years for last p15b, and that is great efficiency considering 4[small order]

If we keep planning new projects with just 4 to 7 ships then things will go on like this only. There only so much any shipyard can do with reducing time to make one.

We need projects with 10-12 ships at minimum.

 

[ezsasa]

We are discussing the total output from the country rather than output from Single shipyard.
International figures give the total National Output not the output per shipyard.

If MDL gets order of only 4 vessels then they will take their own sweet time. But I am happy that with two we are getting more ships in same time period.

just to add a bit of info to this discussion.

the order numbers being given in batches of 4s or 5s is by design, there will be a video of one of previous navy chief explaining the logic. they want to incorporate as many proven tech in to every new batch, so that new batch delays obsolesce of tech by some years.

in other words, if production rate has to improve, innovations has to be done on shipyard side of the equation.

vendor has to adjust to the customer, not the other way around.

 

[AnantS]

If we keep planning new projects with just 4 to 7 ships then things will go on like this only. There only so much any shipyard can do with reducing time to make one.

We need projects with 10-12 ships at minimum.

Yes thats what came in my mind. If we keep on changing Designs frequently after token order - efficiency is going to take hit. But pro is that Navy gets flexibility to adopt any new technologies fast along with optimized design.

 

[SKC]

just to add a bit of info to this discussion.

the order numbers being given in batches of 4s or 5s is by design, there will be a video of one of previous navy chief explaining the logic. they want to incorporate as many proven tech in to every new batch, so that new batch delays obsolesce of tech by some years.

in other words, if production rate has to improve, innovations has to be done on shipyard side of the equation.

vendor has to adjust to the customer, not the other way around.

How would Shipyard find a best production rate and the technical capability if the Navy is going to change the designs every 5-10 years and in small batches of 4-7 ships??

 

[ezsasa]

How would Shipyard find a best production rate and the technical capability if the Navy is going to change the designs every 5-10 years and in small batches of 4-7 ships??

that's the conundrum, hence this same discussion happens every few years.

of the three forces, IN is the only one that plans 20-30 years in advance, started getting involved in design years ago, works in close co-ordination with it's vendors as compared to other two.

for example : in 2014, discussion on modular construction was theoretical, a few years later shipyards invested in it and started using it. this modular construction is different from what europeans or muricans do. last i checked years ago their modules comes with pipes and wirings pre-fitted ours don't (subject to correction). so there is scope for improvement.

IN in co-ordination with vendors have to keep innovating on production process side, there is no other choice.

 

[Blood+]

just to add a bit of info to this discussion.

the order numbers being given in batches of 4s or 5s is by design, there will be a video of one of previous navy chief explaining the logic. they want to incorporate as many proven tech in to every new batch, so that new batch delays obsolesce of tech by some years.

in other words, if production rate has to improve, innovations has to be done on shipyard side of the equation.

vendor has to adjust to the customer, not the other way around.

That's precisely what the Jerries tried to do with their tanks in WWII and we all know how that story ended.

 

[Blood+]

Yes, mostly, but actually the efficiency is increasing if you consider time required to build a 7000T+ boat, but not so good if you consider total nos, it is mainly due to overload of MDL

Its best to consider p15b, first boat took 9 years, last one less than 6 years, same time frame applied to p17a, I'm hoping MDL can complete construction ahead of that timeframe, similar to Imphal
MDL took 11+ years to complete 1st p15a, first p15b took 9- years and need 6- years for last p15b, and that is great efficiency considering 4[small order]

Ok, so were you contradicting our view or agreeing with it?? Now I'm really confused.

 

[ezsasa]

Yes thats what came in my mind. If we keep on changing Designs frequently after token order - efficiency is going to take hit. But pro is that Navy gets flexibility to adopt any new technologies fast along with optimized design.

yes, and threat perception keeps changing too.

a decade ago, we were discussing prevention of USS cole type incidents.
today we are discussing drone threats to navy boats.
in between, barak 8 solved anti-ship missile threats.

tech is not just in terms of large visible components like radars, weapon systems. internal system upgrades are also part of the tech upgrade programs.

 

[AnantS]

yes, and threat perception keeps changing too.

a decade ago, we were discussing prevention of USS cole type incidents.
today we are discussing drone threats to navy boats.
in between, barak 8 solved anti-ship missile threats.

tech is not just in terms of large visible components like radars, weapon systems. internal system upgrades are also part of the tech upgrade programs.

Agree - Drones are proving to be new game changer as guns/cannons were in medieval era. Tanks are proving to be the new elephants of this era. Whoever masters high power mobile laser technology, orbital defensive/offensive weapons, Computer Vision + AI and bulk drone production shall call shots in future warfare.

 

[binayak95]

Agree - Drones are proving to be new game changer as guns/cannons were in medieval era. Tanks are proving to be the new elephants of this era.

And then we will get to the point where tanks will carry rapid fire 57mm rail guns.

 

[Blood+]

Agree - Drones are proving to be new game changer as guns/cannons were in medieval era. Tanks are proving to be the new elephants of this era.

Not just tanks in particular but any land vehicle there is.