Project-17A Nilgiri-class Frigate Thread

[ladder]

Lol no.. Thats why i highlighted the $450m difference..
The $450m(2 ships) is value addition that russia does, that goa will do i.e. making the hulls, and some indigenous equipment.
Another $500m(2 ships) is for equipment that is to be sourced by Russia anyway, no matter where the ship is manufactured.
That's why the first deal is $950m.(2 ships)
The extra equipment like
Mf star costs about $30m.(eqv.AN/spy 1)
Barak system about $50m.
And DT gas turbines about $30mX2.

Exactly!

The main question is how much money will Indian yards consume while doing the same value addition as $450m of Russia.
Usually its much higher
ex- MKI costing 100 crore extra just for procurement.

Your calculation is probably not accurate. The $450 per hull is the cost Russian took is probably similar to the last contract ($1.6 billion for 3) after deducting the price for GT ( 4 each). It doesn't reflect the market price.

Russians probably agreed to the special ( no inflation on last contract price) price as we were buying ToT. ( More equipment sale and consultancy fees)

Also Russians wanted to get rid of the hulls.

 

[Bhurki]

Also Russians wanted to get rid of the hulls

And so my question..................

IN could have actually bought 3 instead of 2 grigorovich in the $950m for not a whole lot more money. 3rd ship is Adm.Kornilov.
It along with the 2 we bought were in a limbo due to Ukranian embargo.

 

[ladder]

And so my question..................

Probably Russians want to test their own marine GT using that hull.
http://mil.today/2018/Industry12/

 

[Bleh]

I don't know why you even waste time on Talwars when you can build ships like this.

I think the most relevant reason is to bolster our number of ships quickly, by building them simultaneously in both India & Russia...

 

[Armand2REP]

I think the most relevant reason is to bolster our number of ships quickly, by building them simultaneously in both India & Russia...

Russia has been anything but quick about it. They are hijacking ships destined for India to make up for their own depleting numbers.

 

[binayak95]

Russia has been anything but quick about it. They are hijacking ships destined for India to make up for their own depleting numbers.

Which ships are you talking of?

These are the first ships ordered since the second set of Talwars were delivered in 2012. That is 7 years ago. No ship/sub has been ordered from Russia since then.

 

[Armand2REP]

Which ships are you talking of?

These are the first ships ordered since the second set of Talwars were delivered in 2012. That is 7 years ago. No ship/sub has been ordered from Russia since then.

The Admiral Butakov was to be the first ship delivered to India. It has been commandeered for the Black Sea Fleet.

https://svpressa.ru/war21/article/229309/

 

[Bhurki]

The Admiral Butakov was to be the first ship delivered to India. It has been commandeered for the Black Sea Fleet.

https://svpressa.ru/war21/article/229309/

This'll surely be the last of it.
Its been too long since indian forces have been bankrolling russia resurgence.
After P17a, IN won't need Russia, hopefully ever, for surface ship. Wonder what ToT they'll get since the kinds of P17a are already in production in the shipyards.

 

[ladder]

$ 950 mil with the Russian. GT extra with Ukraine.
https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...o-join-indian-navy/amp_videoshow/70145392.cms

Goa Shipyard about $ 2 billon approx. Includes ToT and probably upgradation of shipyard.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...igates-in-early-2020/articleshow/71250474.cms

some sources claim $1.2 billion for two ships to be built at Goa shipyard.
And $2.15 billion dollars figure was including the $950 million for the two semi built frigates from Russia.

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2...ild__1_2_Billion_Talwar_Frigates#.XZESS-7hU0M

@Bhurki infact you were pretty much correct.

 

[Megalomaniac]

Let's do a comparison between P17A Frigates and Type 26 Frigates.

In missile armament, Global Combat Ship has total 24 VLS for mix of ASh and Land attack cruise missiles.
Land Attack - Tomahawk (Subsonic)
AShM - LRASM (High Subsonic)

Nilgiri Class has currently 8 VLS for AShM, but 100% sure IN will add another 8 VLS for Land attack missiles in future. So capability is total 16 VLS.

Land Attack - Nirbhaya (Subsonic)
AShM - Brahmos NG (Supersonic)

It is interesting that LRASM weighs 2000kg, Brahmos weighs 3000kg where as NG version weighs 1500kg. Brahmos NG will be lighter than LRASM, still Nilgiri has only 8 VLS for AshM. It should have 16 VLS for that purpose. After completion, another 8 VLS for Nirbhaya will be an add-on for land attack purpose. I don't know what or how IN is planning. Range battle between NG and LRASM can be debated by members.

GCS has 48 VLS for air defence.
ADM - CAMM
Nilgiri has 32 VLS for air defence.
ADM - Barak-ER
It is interesting to know that Barak-ER outclasses CAMM in all parameters except speed. Members can debate why there is 32 VLS instead of 48 VLS in Nilgiri.

Both ships can accommodate 2 helicopters.

In Gun Armament, GCS has Phalanx CIWS where as Nilgiri has comparatively better AK630-M CIWS. In 127mm 5inch Naval gun comparison, Nilgiri has comparatively better Oto Malera. But GCS has additional automated small calibre guns and several general purpose machine guns and miniguns. I don't know for sure Nilgiri has something like that. Members should enlighten more and there are other factors for comparison also.

Below is the specification of AK630 -M2. Nilgiri has M1.

 

[Shashwat]

^^ Couple of corrections, Nilgiri has only 1 helo deck, whether it can accomodate 2 Dhruv or 1 Romoe is anyone's guess at this point. or 1 romeo and 1 HAL unmanned helo. The gun will be from BAE and not Oto Melara, 127mm MOd45.

Cruise missile can be anything b/w Nirbhay or the new AShCM from DRDO. Brahmos is a dual purpose both LACM and Ashm.

Type 26 is heavier by about 1500tonn at full load so load comparision is not fair, its dabling in IN Destroyer territory. Moreover, Brahmos severly limits the overall capability of ship owing to weigth and size. NG will be a perfect mix of weight and lethality for Frigates. Those RBU6000 takes a lot of space for Asu cabaility with much lower range. IN should shift to VLS based ASU missile.

 

[Megalomaniac]

Please give link for your claim that BAE naval gun will be used instead of Oto Malera.

 

[afako]

There are 2 other very important distinctions:

1) Propulsion system:

Type 26: CODLAG

Nilgiri: CODOG

2) Beam:

Type 26: 20.8 m

Nilgiri: 17.8 m

This decides how much real estate and speed does the ship have.

 

[Bhurki]

It is interesting that LRASM weighs 2000kg, Brahmos weighs 3000kg where as NG version weighs 1500kg. Brahmos NG will be lighter than LRASM,

Comparing brahmos to lrasm is like comparing Mig31 to F35.
Brahmos has 3 mach speed and confirmed range of 300 km( 500 km in next phase), but these numbers are achieved only in high-high-low mission where trajectory follows a powered flight at high altitude (15 km) for initial phase( for guidance and range) and changes to low height only at terminal phase. Distance to horizon at various heights-
10km - 350 km
5km - 250 km
1km - 110 km
Considering line of sight detection from enemy radar since its not a stealth missile, its a given that brahmos, for at least the terminal 100 km of flight, will have to stay lower than the horizon (<1km in this case) which will decrease its range considerably. A high-low-low mission in this case will result a range of about 200 km only since thrust specific fuel consumption will be much higher at low altitude.
A low-low-low mission which is used to evade detection by various sensors other than that of target may achieve a range of less than 150 km, some say close to 120 km.
Lrasm due to its stealth characterisitcs can fly high until the very end preserving crucial range to reach the target. Not only that, its IR returns will also be much better than brahmos since it has a turbojet engine while the latter has a ramjet.
Brahmos 2 which will essentially be zircon will be much closer in achieving results like lrasm

 

[Bhurki]

Please give link for your claim that BAE naval gun will be used instead of Oto Malera.

Everything on wiki is not correct..
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-worth-rs-3700-crore/articleshow/63942731.cms
The DAC also approved the procurement of 13 127mm calibre guns from BAE Systems
of the US for over Rs 3,000 crore. “These guns, which have a 24-km range that can be further extended by using ERGMs (extended range gun munitions), will be fitted on board newly- constructed warships to provide fire support and engagement of targets on the land,”

 

[vampyrbladez]

Comparing brahmos to lrasm is like comparing Mig31 to F35.
Brahmos has 3 mach speed and confirmed range of 300 km( 500 km in next phase), but these numbers are achieved only in high-high-low mission where trajectory follows a powered flight at high altitude (15 km) for initial phase( for guidance and range) and changes to low height only at terminal phase. Distance to horizon at various heights-
10km - 350 km
5km - 250 km
1km - 110 km
Considering line of sight detection from enemy radar since its not a stealth missile, its a given that brahmos, for at least the terminal 100 km of flight, will have to stay lower than the horizon (<1km in this case) which will decrease its range considerably. A high-low-low mission in this case will result a range of about 200 km only since thrust specific fuel consumption will be much higher at low altitude.
A low-low-low mission which is used to evade detection by various sensors other than that of target may achieve a range of less than 150 km, some say close to 120 km.
Lrasm due to its stealth characterisitcs can fly high until the very end preserving crucial range to reach the target. Not only that, its IR returns will also be much better than brahmos since it has a turbojet engine while the latter has a ramjet.
Brahmos 2 which will essentially be zircon will be much closer in achieving results like lrasm

BrahMos = Flasher

LRASM = Stealthy Dancer

Thats it.

 

[Bhurki]

BrahMos = Flasher

LRASM = Stealthy Dancer

Thats it.

Well if you want to put everything down to toddler language, then sure..
What i actually meant was if somebody can put a composite angled body on brahmos like russians did to their Kh55(Kh101), then brahmos can scare even murica

 

[rohit b3]

Let's do a comparison between P17A Frigates and Type 26 Frigates.

In missile armament, Global Combat Ship has total 24 VLS for mix of ASh and Land attack cruise missiles.
Land Attack - Tomahawk (Subsonic)
AShM - LRASM (High Subsonic)

Nilgiri Class has currently 8 VLS for AShM, but 100% sure IN will add another 8 VLS for Land attack missiles in future. So capability is total 16 VLS.

Land Attack - Nirbhaya (Subsonic)
AShM - Brahmos NG (Supersonic)

It is interesting that LRASM weighs 2000kg, Brahmos weighs 3000kg where as NG version weighs 1500kg. Brahmos NG will be lighter than LRASM, still Nilgiri has only 8 VLS for AshM. It should have 16 VLS for that purpose. After completion, another 8 VLS for Nirbhaya will be an add-on for land attack purpose. I don't know what or how IN is planning. Range battle between NG and LRASM can be debated by members.

GCS has 48 VLS for air defence.
ADM - CAMM
Nilgiri has 32 VLS for air defence.
ADM - Barak-ER
It is interesting to know that Barak-ER outclasses CAMM in all parameters except speed. Members can debate why there is 32 VLS instead of 48 VLS in Nilgiri.

Both ships can accommodate 2 helicopters.

In Gun Armament, GCS has Phalanx CIWS where as Nilgiri has comparatively better AK630-M CIWS. In 127mm 5inch Naval gun comparison, Nilgiri has comparatively better Oto Malera. But GCS has additional automated small calibre guns and several general purpose machine guns and miniguns. I don't know for sure Nilgiri has something like that. Members should enlighten more and there are other factors for comparison also.

Below is the specification of AK630 -M2. Nilgiri has M1.

Nilgiri has 500 kms range MFSTAR AESA radar - the heart of the warship
Type 26 has 3D Artisan medium range radar - the same class as the Revati radar on our Kamorta Class - though a generation advanced. But still nowhere near MFSTAR.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Well if you want to put everything down to toddler language, then sure..
What i actually meant was if somebody can put a composite angled body on brahmos like russians did to their Kh55(Kh101), then brahmos can scare even murica

BrahMos has a very low approach profile 3-4 m above sea level. Unless you have specific radar complexes designed to look out for cruise missiles, even Patriot SAM batteries can't help you. Case in point.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...aftermath-of-the-saudi-oil-facilities-attacks

https://web.archive.org/web/20130805213356/http://brahmos.com/content.php?id=10&sid=10

Even then your reaction time is a fraction of that of a subsonic missile. Is it a coincidence that the US operationalized the SM6 as an AsHM?

https://defencyclopedia.com/2015/07...t-2-arleigh-burke-vs-daring-class-destroyers/

 

[aarav]

BrahMos has a very low approach profile 3-4 m above sea level. Unless you have specific radar complexes designed to look out for cruise missiles, even Patriot SAM batteries can't help you. Case in point.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...aftermath-of-the-saudi-oil-facilities-attacks

https://web.archive.org/web/20130805213356/http://brahmos.com/content.php?id=10&sid=10

Even then your reaction time is a fraction of that of a subsonic missile. Is it a coincidence that the US operationalized the SM6 as an AsHM?

https://defencyclopedia.com/2015/07...t-2-arleigh-burke-vs-daring-class-destroyers/

BrahMos also has steep dive in the newer version which makes it a carrier or a capital ship killer against the enemy