P-18/Next Generation Destroyer class (NGD)

[Lonewolf]

What a joke, a handful of units every 20 years, nothing ever changes.

meanwhile the PLAN is adding the equivalent to the WNC fleet every year

Come 2030s Indian economy will be 2-3x the current size, what’s their excuse now?

They want aircraft carrier more than submarines and destroyers, like you would send a aircraft carrier for naval blockade of a minor route , mere two AC can't be used for whole shipment routes to Pakistan ,you need smaller frigate and destroyers

 

[swapcv]

What a joke, a handful of units every 20 years, nothing ever changes.

meanwhile the PLAN is adding the equivalent to the WNC fleet every year

Come 2030s Indian economy will be 2-3x the current size, what’s their excuse now?

Unpopular opinion but if the Govt. focuses less on useless freebies and subsidies and allocates funding that would usually go into them instead into our Defence sector, then we could easily boost our current budget to include additional hulls per Project.

 

[Dharani]

Since it is apparent that we won't be sanctioning the P-18 class any more earlier than 2025, it would be prudent if we could keep the lines humming with activity by sanctioning low rate production of P-15B batch 2 and P-17A batch 2 hulls till the P-18/NGD and P-17B/NGF designs are finalized. We can use these hulls to act as a transitional hull where in certain equipment and systems that already being intended for use on the newer designs can be fitted onto these batch 2 hulls for testing, proving and integration.

Wonder about the wisdom which dictated that the 2 Talwar class ships be manufactured in GSL instead of MDL/GRSE, would have kept the lines running. What's the point of skilling another shipyard in Frigate-making if the orders sizes are expected to remain small?
Also, MoD has now forgotten about L&T which invested in a greenfield shipyard in Kattupalli exoecting a boom in shipbuilding.

 

[Gessler]

Any indications about NGD and NGF numbers?

NGD requirement is for either 5 or 6 as per MDL chairman (says 5 in transcript but 6 in media interaction).

NGF, no idea yet. My thoughts on that:

Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

shayad se yes. I have confusion regarding this -- is it in karwar or mumbai Enc is vizag bro

defenceforumindia.com

 

[abingdonboy]

They want aircraft carrier more than submarines and destroyers, like you would send a aircraft carrier for naval blockade of a minor route , mere two AC can't be used for whole shipment routes to Pakistan ,you need smaller frigate and destroyers

The Indian navy is all over the place when it comes to planning, everything is piecemeal, delayed and overcomplicated. They’ve been trying to get new SSK, NUH, IMRH, mine sweepers for the best part of 15 years and haven’t made progress on ANY front. They are now arguing about IAC-2’s specs as IAC-1 is set to be commissioned meaning there is no pipeline to get a new carrier for decades. Their fighter force is falling apart, their legacy vessels are largely unmodernised and they can’t even order more than 6 ships at a time apparently.


They are going to get to a similar point that the Royal Navy is- unable to send 2 carriers to sea at the same time because they don’t have the surface fleet to provide escort for 2 CBGs.

 

[ladder]

Wonder about the wisdom which dictated that the 2 Talwar class ships be manufactured in GSL instead of MDL/GRSE, would have kept the lines running. What's the point of skilling another shipyard in Frigate-making if the orders sizes are expected to remain small?
Also, MoD has now forgotten about L&T which invested in a greenfield shipyard in Kattupalli exoecting a boom in shipbuilding.

Manohar Parrikar wanted Goa shipyard to manufacture frigates. Negotiations started with Russia from 2015-16 and as with every thing took a little longer to finalize.
Also MDL has a very large share holding of Goa Shipyard.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Wonder about the wisdom which dictated that the 2 Talwar class ships be manufactured in GSL instead of MDL/GRSE, would have kept the lines running. What's the point of skilling another shipyard in Frigate-making if the orders sizes are expected to remain small?
Also, MoD has now forgotten about L&T which invested in a greenfield shipyard in Kattupalli exoecting a boom in shipbuilding.

The rationale is that GSL would always be available to build frigate class warships ever if MDL and GRSE are occupied with other projects.
The contract for building 2 frigates with ToT from Russia seems like a pilot project to evaluate GSL and a larger order might see the light of the day if GSL is successful in delivering those 2 frigates to the Navy in the required timeframe.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

rumored is 4 ngd and 4 ngf .

so, forget abt ordering in double digits

Plan is to build 6 NGD and 12 NGF, as per past discussions on this thread

 

[Dharani]

The rationale is that GSL would always be available to build frigate class warships ever if MDL and GRSE are occupied with other projects.
The contract for building 2 frigates with ToT from Russia seems like a pilot project to evaluate GSL and a larger order might see the light of the day if GSL is successful in delivering those 2 frigates to the Navy in the required timeframe.

Yeah but MDL itself has multiple lines & they specialize in Destroyers & Frigates. Building capacity in an additional shipyard when the orderbook is expected to remain small is baffling.

 

[JBH22]

Unpopular opinion but if the Govt. focuses less on useless freebies and subsidies and allocates funding that would usually go into them instead into our Defence sector, then we could easily boost our current budget to include additional hulls per Project.

First armed forces must fully utilise the available CAPEX budget
Secondly no freebies means no re-election for the govt. India has to reinvent itself by looking for sustainable ways to provide safety nets to its citizen.

 

[johnj]

What a joke, a handful of units every 20 years, nothing ever changes.

meanwhile the PLAN is adding the equivalent to the WNC fleet every year

Come 2030s Indian economy will be 2-3x the current size, what’s their excuse now?

Ssn, autonomous drones , helios and boats, tedbf, rafale/sh, cvn, lhd. minesweepers , p75i, support vessel, helios etc etc

 

[johnj]

The Indian navy is all over the place when it comes to planning, everything is piecemeal, delayed and overcomplicated. They’ve been trying to get new SSK, NUH, IMRH, mine sweepers for the best part of 15 years and haven’t made progress on ANY front. They are now arguing about IAC-2’s specs as IAC-1 is set to be commissioned meaning there is no pipeline to get a new carrier for decades. Their fighter force is falling apart, their legacy vessels are largely unmodernised and they can’t even order more than 6 ships at a time apparently.


They are going to get to a similar point that the Royal Navy is- unable to send 2 carriers to sea at the same time because they don’t have the surface fleet to provide escort for 2 CBGs.

Same problem with all indian armed forces. Its easy to buy from aboard, but navy want make/made in India. IN can support un building Iac2 but can't with SSK, NUH, IMRH, mine sweepers, etc so IN giving importance to what they can do and other part to goi.
from wiki- Anti Submarine Warfare Shallow Water Craft = 16, Next Generation OPV - 11 TWO DIGIT
I don't think navy cant afford 12plus billion for a single project currently. 10 ddg/fg costs= 12 plus billion.

 

[vampyrbladez]

rumored is 4 ngd and 4 ngf .

so, forget abt ordering in double digits

5 NGD and 10 NGF as per the Indian Navy force doctrine released in 2018.

 

[ladder]

5 NGD and 10 NGF as per the Indian Navy force doctrine released in 2018.

That needs to be revised upwards. GoI and IN are aware of the Naval updates in our neighborhood.
PN's acquisition of platforms wouldn't have gone un-noticed.
Similarly for Bangladesh, thay are going to order 6 frigates and 6 opvs in near future. And unlike Pakistan, they actually have the money.
Similarly other navies in our neighborhood too are upgrading.
The MCPP, if I am not wrong is upto the year 2027. Once our Navy decides to look at MCPP for beyond 2027, the only direction for revision is upwards.

 

[vampyrbladez]

That needs to be revised upwards. GoI and IN are aware of the Naval updates in our neighborhood.
PN's acquisition of platforms wouldn't have gone un-noticed.
Similarly for Bangladesh, thay are going to order 6 frigates and 6 opvs in near future. And unlike Pakistan, they actually have the money.
Similarly other navies in our neighborhood too are upgrading.
The MCPP, if I am not wrong is upto the year 2027. Once our Navy decides to look at MCPP for beyond 2027, the only direction for revision is upwards.

My thinking indicates there will be P 18A and P 18B of 5-6 ships each with the NGF-A and NGF-B (10-12 each) being marginally smaller and having fewer VLS equipped as compared to the P 18 class.

The Indian Navy likes to order in Tranches and Blocks if you follow their acquisition of large surface vessels.

The only issue I have with all these developments is that we may not have enough time. Indian warship building is where China was in 2006-7 if you look at their force plan until 2020.

The Chinese understand this and are investing in PN having 4 Type 054A/P, 8 Type 39 Diesel Electric Submarines, 4 x MILGEM Corvettes , etc to further draw away Indian Navy frontline warships from a tactical response against them in the Indian Ocean region.

 

[Gessler]

5 NGD and 10 NGF as per the Indian Navy force doctrine released in 2018.

That is not what 5-10 means. It meant combined number of NGD & NGF could be somewhere between 5 and 10. But this was a very vague estimate with huge bracket. By no means is 10 vessels to be treated as upper cap for NGD+NGF combined.

This was ofcourse several years before the numbers of NGD were firmed up as 5-6. There is no word on NGF numbers. As I said previously, bare minimum requirement will have to be for 6 hulls. Over & above that is definitely possible, but will be dependent on various factors including doctrine & finances.

 

[johnj]

IN need more submarine, Minesweeper, drones[underwater, air and sea], MMPA, rafale/sh, advanced torpedoes, sonar, sam,aip, Fleet replenishment oiler, etc plus, a lots of overhaul/upgrade. means ngd can wait a little bit.

 

[thebakofbakchod]

we need more medium sized frigates like the type 54d. Our frigates are too overpowered while our destroyers are underpowered

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

we need more medium sized frigates like the type 54d. Our frigates are too overpowered while our destroyers are underpowered

Type 054A is underpowered.
In engine terms

 

[HariPrasad-1]

I want Rolls-Royce gas turbine to power it which is proposed to be produced in partnership.

Brahmos ER is already tested. By that time, Brahmos 1 would have achieved near hypersonic speed. Much evolved version of MFSTAR and MRSAM wolud have come by then. Brahmos II and laser would have arrived by then. It will be a very exciting vessel.