P-18/Next Generation Destroyer class (NGD)

[Gessler]

Vizag class was ordered back in 2009 and Nilgiri class in 2017. First reason of using Zorya in Destroyers and LM in Frigates.

Kolkata, Vizag both draw their lineage from Delhi-class which has same propulsion layout (older Zorya turbines) because Soviets had a big hand in its design & development. This is the only reason why our DDGs continue to use said Zorya turbines.

Our frigates on the other hand were always Western in nature, straight from Leander-class. Fincantieri played a part in Shivalik's design, hence selection of Western GTs was seen as optimum solution. P17A continues this because it draws lineage from P17.

Zorya class MGT produce 60,000 shp against 30,000 shp of LM2500 and 40,000 shp. Second reason for opting for Zorya in destroyers against LM2500 in frigates.

Where are you getting these figures from? Are you sure they are talking about the shp of a single turbine and not of all 4 combined?

Because this is the turbine (x4) used by Kolkata:

Marine Gas Turbine UGT16000R-DT59 -Zorya-Mashproekt | Linquip

All information about Marine Gas Turbine UGT16000R-DT59. Contact its suppliers or service providers to request a quote or find out the best price.

www.linquip.com

The power output of each is 16.5 MW.

A single base model LM2500 makes 21-25 MW. Advanced models (LM2500+) make 30-35 MW.

LM2500 & LM2500XPRESS Gas Turbines | GE Vernova

GE Vernova's family of LM2500 gas turbines offer unsurpassed flexibility and reliability. Learn more about GE Vernova's LM2500 gas turbines, including the LM2500XPRESS, today.

www.ge.com

Rolls Royce Marine Trent (MT30) makes 36-40 MW.

MT30 Marine Gas Turbine

MT30 Marine Gas Turbine

www.rolls-royce.com

Pound for pound, the Ukrainian turbines have got nothing on Western ones. However, keep in mind that as of now, all of our Zorya turbines are used only in COGAG whereas all Western ones are only used in CODAG (with exception of Vikrant).

 

[johnj]

6600 tonnes and 10000 km range frigate is not a blue water asset?

My mistake, what i want to say is fire power. 8 uvls.
yes you are right.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Considering the time frame, production capability and yards, IN place order when first p17a gets commissioned, unless next gen ssk order is placed. 7+4 ffg after ddg. So question, is their any other order for yards fill 7ffg and 2 ssk. ? thnks

After 2026 when the last P17A will be delivered until 2029-30-ish when the first NGD is laid down, GRSE and MDL yards will remain vacant.

To assuage the yards, 1 (MDL) + 1 (GRSE) P 17A may be ordered but there is no official confirmation or news report regarding this.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Kolkata, Vizag both draw their lineage from Delhi-class which has same propulsion layout (older Zorya turbines) because Soviets had a big hand in its design & development. This is the only reason why our DDGs continue to use said Zorya turbines.

Our frigates on the other hand were always Western in nature, straight from Leander-class. Fincantieri played a part in Shivalik's design, hence selection of Western GTs was seen as optimum solution. P17A continues this because it draws lineage from P17.



Where are you getting these figures from? Are you sure they are talking about the shp of a single turbine and not of all 4 combined?

Because this is the turbine (x4) used by Kolkata:

Marine Gas Turbine UGT16000R-DT59 -Zorya-Mashproekt | Linquip

All information about Marine Gas Turbine UGT16000R-DT59. Contact its suppliers or service providers to request a quote or find out the best price.

www.linquip.com

The power output of each is 16.5 MW.

A single base model LM2500 makes 21-25 MW. Advanced models (LM2500+) make 30-35 MW.

LM2500 & LM2500XPRESS Gas Turbines | GE Vernova

GE Vernova's family of LM2500 gas turbines offer unsurpassed flexibility and reliability. Learn more about GE Vernova's LM2500 gas turbines, including the LM2500XPRESS, today.

www.ge.com

Rolls Royce Marine Trent (MT30) makes 36-40 MW.

MT30 Marine Gas Turbine

MT30 Marine Gas Turbine

www.rolls-royce.com

Pound for pound, the Ukrainian turbines have got nothing on Western ones. However, keep in mind that as of now, all of our Zorya turbines are used only in COGAG whereas all Western ones are only used in CODAG (with exception of Vikrant).

When do you think we will get our first NGD? What will the yards do from 2026-2030. Any ideas?

 

[ladder]

MDL will in all likelihood be the lead shipyard for P18 class destroyer. But it will not be long before GRSE becomes the largest DPSU shipyard, at least in terms of volume.
GRSE has been able to collaborate better with other shipyards. Be it L&T Kattupalli shipyard or Titagarh shipyard.
It also acquired the Rajabagan dockyard.
Also, it took over operation of dockyard of SPM port on lease. Although it currently is for commercial ship repair but in future, can be used for defence shipbuilding as well.
On the other hand MDL expansion and lease (Drydocks of Mumbai Port) is moving nowhere.

 

[abingdonboy]

After 2026 when the last P17A will be delivered until 2029-30-ish when the first NGD is laid down, GRSE and MDL yards will remain vacant.

To assuage the yards, 1 (MDL) + 1 (GRSE) P 17A may be ordered but there is no official confirmation or news report regarding this.

After 2026 MDL and GRSE will have the capacity to start work on NGD surely?

for that contract would need to be signed in 2024 (assuming a 2 year Buildup period before the keel is laid like with the 17As) could see the first NGD by 2031/2. Why not?

If not they should order another 2-3 17As to keep MDL and GRSE meaningfully engaged

CSL too is going to have a serious drain in capacity now that IAC-1 is all but finished and IAC-2 is firmly a post 2030 project

2020s seem like another lost decade to me, no urgency is being shown.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

My guess is 2027-28 contract, 2030-ish keel laying and 2036-37 commissioning. Up to 6 of these NGD may be built AFAIK. Construction will take 6-7 years for the first ship with the next iteration taking around 5-6 years.

BTW INS Kolkata was commissioned in 2014 so it will be around 22 years old at the time of 1st NGD being commissioned and with Mid Life refits will easily serve for another 10-15 years.

Given the timelines of the NGD, my guess is that the Navy and the shipyards will first try to either finish off the NGF project which might be incremental upgrades and refinements to P17A design which are basically 'mini' destroyers given their tonnage. Given the modular construction, they should relatively be built quicker.
The Delhi class of destroyers will start retiring post 2035, about the time when NGD would start to enter service.
Up until 2030, Navy will be left with just 3 Delhi class + 3 Kolkata class + 4 Vizag class = 10 destroyers if they do not plan on building any additional units of the Vizag class under a different designation as the remaining 3 Rajput class DDG head into the sunset.
So either they build P17B frigates as mini destroyers to address shortfall in destroyer numbers or build some P15C destroyers before undertaking NGD.

 

[Gessler]

When do you think we will get our first NGD?

As I said multiple times before, by mid-2030s.

What will the yards do from 2026-2030. Any ideas?

No idea - current plans will have both MDL & GRSE sitting with unutilized major surface combatant-building capacity for about ~4 years time. Result of terrible planning, piecemeal orders, and delays.

Unless some miracle happens like additional P-15B and P-17A. But even that sort of thing has to be planned years in advance and so far there is absolutely no talk of additional orders.

 

[karn]

I think a lot depends on the anti ballistic missile system ..what will be its size requirement of the radar etc only then can the the project 18 design be frozen . Perhaps the frigates will be anti ship while the destroyers the anti air.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Yes. 4 GE Engine for 110,000 shp vs 2 Zorya Engine for 100,000 shp

So you could see the difference here why Zorya was opted on top of GE for Vizag class. GE is more energy efficient then Zorya, but when it comes to raw propulsion power, which a destroyer needs more then an AC, Zorya beats GE hands down.

Your numbers for the Zorya GTs are wrong, the number you’ve mentioned includes the 4 GTs in the Zorya combination of 2 M36 GTs and 2 DT59 Reversible GTs.

 

[vampyrbladez]

As I said multiple times before, by mid-2030s.



No idea - current plans will have both MDL & GRSE sitting with unutilized major surface combatant-building capacity for about ~4 years time. Result of terrible planning, piecemeal orders, and delays.

Unless some miracle happens like additional P-15B and P-17A. But even that sort of thing has to be planned years in advance and so far there is absolutely no talk of additional orders.

After doing some number crunching, all I can think of is :

2025 - Last 2 P17A are delivered from MDL and GRSE.

Late 2025 to early 2026 - RFP released

Mid 2027 - Contract signed

2029 - Keel of 1st ship laid

Assuming construction of 1st ship taking 6-7 years since P17A at MDL took 5 years.

2035-36 - First ship commissioned

Subsequent ships will take 5-6 years so second ship 2036-ish ?

Total ships : 5

Hopefully NGF is also under construction by then at GRSE and MDL with 1 example delivered ?

 

[THESIS THORON]

After doing some number crunching, all I can think of is :

2025 - Last 2 P17A are delivered from MDL and GRSE.

what abt p75i, which dock will make it ??

 

[Gessler]

After doing some number crunching, all I can think of is :

2025 - Last 2 P17A are delivered from MDL and GRSE.

Yes and as per currently expected timeline (according to MDL chairman) the first NGD build could start by ~2028-2029.

So 3-4 years of idle time.

 

[johnj]

After 2026 MDL and GRSE will have the capacity to start work on NGD surely?

for that contract would need to be signed in 2024 (assuming a 2 year Buildup period before the keel is laid like with the 17As) could see the first NGD by 2031/2. Why not?

If not they should order another 2-3 17As to keep MDL and GRSE meaningfully engaged

CSL too is going to have a serious drain in capacity now that IAC-1 is all but finished and IAC-2 is firmly a post 2030 project

2020s seem like another lost decade to me, no urgency is being shown.

Csl don't have any issue, it can fill its yards with commercial and military orders and repair. both cv are floating not dry docked.
GSL having other orders comes in future
HSL, GSRE, MDL in 2026 plus ?

 

[johnj]

As I said multiple times before, by mid-2030s.



No idea - current plans will have both MDL & GRSE sitting with unutilized major surface combatant-building capacity for about ~4 years time. Result of terrible planning, piecemeal orders, and delays.

Unless some miracle happens like additional P-15B and P-17A. But even that sort of thing has to be planned years in advance and so far there is absolutely no talk of additional orders.

p15c with additional uvls sounds great.

 

[johnj]

I think a lot depends on the anti ballistic missile system ..what will be its size requirement of the radar etc only then can the the project 18 design be frozen . Perhaps the frigates will be anti ship while the destroyers the anti air.

then 16 uvls p17b with more stealth.

 

[swapcv]

Since it is apparent that we won't be sanctioning the P-18 class any more earlier than 2025, it would be prudent if we could keep the lines humming with activity by sanctioning low rate production of P-15B batch 2 and P-17A batch 2 hulls till the P-18/NGD and P-17B/NGF designs are finalized. We can use these hulls to act as a transitional hull where in certain equipment and systems that already being intended for use on the newer designs can be fitted onto these batch 2 hulls for testing, proving and integration.

 

[abingdonboy]

Yes and as per currently expected timeline (according to MDL chairman) the first NGD build could start by ~2028-2029.

So 3-4 years of idle time.

Build starts in 2028-29 means keel laying? Which would mean a contract in 2026-7 (as per P17A timelines)

this is as close to the optimal utilisation of the yards as can be imagined

Any indications about NGD and NGF numbers? When are they going to start ordering double digits at a time instead of 4-7 batches? The navy is barely expanding its footprint, just replacing 1-1 every 30 years

 

[THESIS THORON]

Any indications about NGD and NGF numbers? When are they going to start ordering double digits at a time instead of 4-7 batches? The navy is barely expanding its footprint, just replacing 1-1 every 30 years

rumored is 4 ngd and 4 ngf .

so, forget abt ordering in double digits

 

[abingdonboy]

rumored is 4 ngd and 4 ngf .

so, forget abt ordering in double digits

What a joke, a handful of units every 20 years, nothing ever changes.

meanwhile the PLAN is adding the equivalent to the WNC fleet every year

Come 2030s Indian economy will be 2-3x the current size, what’s their excuse now?