Nirbhay Cruise Missile Development

[mavles ihctep]

Russians corrupted our our entire defence establishment.

 

[lupgain]

Defence experts have raised questions on the requirement of such a subsonic missile, which can cruise at a speed of 0.8 Mach, when supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, developed jointly with Russia, is already inducted in the armed forces. BrahMos, which flies at a speed of Mach 3, has a strike range of 290 km

This question requires a serious thought....I think Armed Forces, MOD, Research Facilities & Technological Insitutes Either
1. Should synergyse their efforts and gain mutual respect for each other, than being jingoistic/egoistic/cry babies/buck passer and rigid in their behaviors and policies
2. Pursue S.M.A.R.T. Goals and learn right project management skills.
3. Get Lean - 6 Sigma certified to reduce wastes & to improve process capability Cpk
and hence improve their chances of success and time bound delivery.
4. Go back to boardroom and chalk plans together and decide which projects can be put on hold, which requires immediate attention, which can be delivered at the earliest

Or Else

MoD should give serious thought selling good amount of stake to private partnership in these institutions and make it a PSU for private investment, these Grey Haired-Pot Bellied scientists who enjoy authorities without accountability would then surely learn how to produce desired results when bosses half their age will sit on their heads and nag them for time bound reults.. this will only remain last solution to our snail paced-elephant size organizations

 

[Chinmoy]

This question requires a serious thought....I think Armed Forces, MOD, Research Facilities & Technological Insitutes Either
1. Should synergyse their efforts and gain mutual respect for each other, than being jingoistic/egoistic/cry babies/buck passer and rigid in their behaviors and policies
2. Pursue S.M.A.R.T. Goals and learn right project management skills.
3. Get Lean - 6 Sigma certified to reduce wastes & to improve process capability Cpk
and hence improve their chances of success and time bound delivery.
4. Go back to boardroom and chalk plans together and decide which projects can be put on hold, which requires immediate attention, which can be delivered at the earliest

Or Else

MoD should give serious thought selling good amount of stake to private partnership in these institutions and make it a PSU for private investment, these Grey Haired-Pot Bellied scientists who enjoy authorities without accountability would then surely learn how to produce desired results when bosses half their age will sit on their heads and nag them for time bound reults.. this will only remain last solution to our snail paced-elephant size organizations

I wonder who are these so called defence experts??????
It seems we have much more knowledge then these so called experts. With this very point I'd say that they are just a part of nexus. Its high time to introduce home made turbo fan.

 

[lupgain]

I wonder who are these so called defence experts??????
It seems we have much more knowledge then these so called experts. With this very point I'd say that they are just a part of nexus. Its high time to introduce home made turbo fan.

So called Def expert, what is it supposed to mean, Bro, Is it for me or DRDO ??? DRDO already have big mouthed about it's turbofan engine venture with GTRE Banglore


DRDO Blames ARE and vice versa

 

[Yodha]

This question requires a serious thought....I think Armed Forces, MOD, Research Facilities & Technological Insitutes Either
1. Should synergyse their efforts and gain mutual respect for each other, than being jingoistic/egoistic/cry babies/buck passer and rigid in their behaviors and policies
2. Pursue S.M.A.R.T. Goals and learn right project management skills.
3. Get Lean - 6 Sigma certified to reduce wastes & to improve process capability Cpk
and hence improve their chances of success and time bound delivery.
4. Go back to boardroom and chalk plans together and decide which projects can be put on hold, which requires immediate attention, which can be delivered at the earliest

Or Else

MoD should give serious thought selling good amount of stake to private partnership in these institutions and make it a PSU for private investment, these Grey Haired-Pot Bellied scientists who enjoy authorities without accountability would then surely learn how to produce desired results when bosses half their age will sit on their heads and nag them for time bound reults.. this will only remain last solution to our snail paced-elephant size organizations

The points 1,2 and 3 are definitely useless with DRDO. They don't need someone like us to tell them how to cooperate and synergyse their efforts even after having decades of history behind them.

But if at all they have to go back to the boardroom and chalk plans together and decide what to do "NOW", the organisation should be dismantled. How many times these guys have gone back to boardroom and chalked out new plans again and again?

Of course the defense forces brass have some part in the failures of the DRDO with their ever changing GSQR requirements, their love for foreign maal and their love for commissions. We don't have to wonder with the dismal performance of our defense institutes, when we have a habit of putting our national security in the hands of dealers, brokers and middleman.

OT: we would be better of with acquiring some kalibr missiles from Russia as usual.

 

[lupgain]

The points 1,2 and 3 are definitely useless with DRDO. They don't need someone like us to tell them how to cooperate and synergyse their efforts even after having decades of history behind them.

But if at all they have to go back to the boardroom and chalk plans together and decide what to do "NOW", the organisation should be dismantled. How many times these guys have gone back to boardroom and chalked out new plans again and again?

Of course the defense forces brass have some part in the failures of the DRDO with their ever changing GSQR requirements, their love for foreign maal and their love for commissions. We don't have to wonder with the dismal performance of our defense institutes, when we have a habit of putting our national security in the hands of dealers, brokers and middleman.

OT: we would be better of with acquiring some kalibr missiles from Russia as usual.

Google it Bro, there had been so many occasions in the past, until october this year... where Defence experts and committees have proposed dismantling DRDO, it being terminally ill organisation infected with corruption..

I think this failed test should become the last nail into it's coffin..

 

[Chinmoy]

So called Def expert, what is it supposed to mean, Bro, Is it for me or DRDO ??? DRDO already have big mouthed about it's turbofan engine venture with GTRE Banglore


DRDO Blames ARE and vice versa

I meant those experts who is questing the need of NIRBHAY with BRAHMOS around. Are they really serious?

 

[lupgain]

I meant those experts who is questing the need of NIRBHAY with BRAHMOS around. Are they really serious?

I am not against Nirbhay if it's worth it...coz we have cost advantage..for our 1 missile.. Pak needs to develop another 2 missiles, which means, their Def budget goes for a spiral-spin-nose-dive..and they will freak out ranting about imbalance of regional power

But all this, not at the cost of 1000 crore and still dysfunctional missile after a decade..

DRDO / Khangress should be sued for wasting public money..man

I am sure with Rs.1000 crore budget any of our Defense Partners like, Tata, Mahindra, Godrej, Kalyani Group, Forge would have delivered results in 36 months time frame...

Our fat ass engineers don't have defined KRAs/KPIs to meet, to hold them accountable for their actions and put them into PIP (Performance Improvement Plan) for a particular period, if unable to perform and then finally throw them out of organisation..or VRS

 

[Adioz]

@Adioz and @piKacHHu ..... Gyro is an important factor in navigation, but one directly cannot relate it with INS. The primary and I'd say the sole purpose of Gyro is to provide stability in pitch and yaw. But Gyro by itself cannot relate to the factor of time and position. At any given time or position it would look solely into the stability of the system.

INS= Inertial Navigation System
Gyroscope is used along with accelerometers in INS. Gyroscopes give us the absolute orientation of the vehicle. Without a knowledge about the instantaneous orientation of your missile in-flight, you cannot give its control fins and thruster the I/P to generate a desired heading.
Gyro gives you stability 'cause it tells you what your orientation is.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

Lack of accountability is not only DRDO problem. It affects all branches of government and infact national life. Did anyone haul up Senior Generals for their disastrous command failures Kargil onwards, what about bureaucrats who fail to buy stuff in time because it is not lowest price vendor so that they are not accused of corruption. Even today Mumbai coastline is pretty open , large cantonments have no security, police does not take its responsibility seriously in most of our cities, government schools are without teachers, court cases takes decades. When Chinese state that our democracy is functionally dysfunctional,, they may just be right.

 

[Chinmoy]

I am not against Nirbhay if it's worth it...coz we have cost advantage..for our 1 missile.. Pak needs to develop another 2 missiles, which means, their Def budget goes for a spiral-spin-nose-dive..and they will freak out ranting about imbalance of regional power

But all this, not at the cost of 1000 crore and still dysfunctional missile after a decade..

DRDO / Khangress should be sued for wasting public money..man

I am sure with Rs.1000 crore budget any of our Defense Partners like, Tata, Mahindra, Godrej, Kalyani Group, Forge would have delivered results in 36 months time frame...

Our fat ass engineers don't have defined KRAs/KPIs to meet, to hold them accountable for their actions and put them into PIP (Performance Improvement Plan) for a particular period, if unable to perform and then finally throw them out of organisation..or VRS

First of all we have to shed this Pakistan centric mindset. Its development is not about plunging Pakistan into financial shit hole, its about developing a weapon platform.

I believe the very first fault in the system is the turbo fan engine. We do need a reliable one as we have seen that out of three failures, two has been due to this only.
Second fault is our limited knowledge regarding material science as it has shown itself this time.
Third is our inability to learn from other platform in service. By this I don't mean we should borrow tech from BRAHMOS, but DRDO could allign with HAL and ADA in developing the flight control and navigational system.
Bringing in pvt entities would not have been any difference now. Look at their short shortsightedness. Don't you think they are well versed with what is happening with its development? They do very well know that if they could provide a potent system, IA, IN, IAF would lap it up for sure. But even then they are not showing any interest in some short of JV to develop a parallel platform. Now here I am saying JV because they themselves lack the tech to develop one in house.

More irritating is such comments from so called defence experts who are questioning the viability of a 1000 km range weapon system because we have a 300 km weapon system in service. Do you think that such sort of thinking is even logical?

 

[Chinmoy]

INS= Inertial Navigation System
Gyroscope is used along with accelerometers in INS. Gyroscopes give us the absolute orientation of the vehicle. Without a knowledge about the instantaneous orientation of your missile in-flight, you cannot give its control fins and thruster the I/P to generate a desired heading.
Gyro gives you stability 'cause it tells you what your orientation is.

No there you answered the fact. Gyro provide stability because it tells you what is your orientation. Now once it loses its orientation, it does lose its stability and veers off.
As far as initial orientation is concerned, if it would have been faulty, the missile would have immediately veered off or would not have oriented towards its intended direction. But it did and then it lost its orientation. It means there is definitely some issue with the Gyro which was unable to provide it stability at this stage.

 

[AbRaj]

EXCLUSIVE: DRDO's cruise missile project Nirbhay on verge of closure
By Hemant Kumar Rout | Express News Service | Published: 23rd December 2016 01:52 AM |

BHUBANESWAR: Once a pride for Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), India’s own cruise missile project Nirbhay is on the verge of closure.

A highly placed source told ‘The New Indian Express’ that the project is likely to be closed as the missile has failed to deliver desired results even 12 years after the project was launched. A review of the project will be conducted shortly.

Nirbhay is the country’s first indigenously built long-range sub-sonic cruise missile which can be compared with America’s Tomahawk in terms of its capability. Designed by Bengaluru-based Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), the missile was designed to fly at different altitudes ranging from 500 meters to four km.

Launched in 2004 at a cost of Rs 48 crore, the projected date of completion (PDC) for the prestigious project was December 31, 2016. However, under trial since 2013, the missile is yet to perform as expected after four attempts in the last four years.

The project has been plagued with difficulties as the scientists are still struggling to fix the problems in the flight control software and navigation system while some others point fingers at the hardware.

While the Research Centre Imarat (RCI) blamed ADE-developed software, ADE was pointing towards the defective hardware supplied by RCI. “However, it could not be ascertained which is defective, whether the software or hardware, but Nirbhay missile failed in its fourth attempt,” an insider said.

There has been problem with the control software since beginning. The RCI had developed navigational hardware for their applications and it was adopted by ADE for Nirbhay. There are always differences between ADE and RCI regarding its functional efficacy, the source claimed.

Defence experts have raised questions on the requirement of such a subsonic missile, which can cruise at a speed of 0.8 Mach, when supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, developed jointly with Russia, is already inducted in the armed forces.

BrahMos, which flies at a speed of Mach 3, has a strike range of 290 km. Though Nirbhay can strike targets 1,000 km away, with India joining the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), it can now develop long range cruise missiles as joint ventures.

While initially the expected cost of ‘Nirbhay’ was around Rs 10 crore per piece, DRDO has so far spent more than Rs 100 crore on R&D and trials.

DRDO Chief Selvin Christopher and Project Director of Nirbhay Vasanth Sastri did not respond to the calls and queries from ‘The New Indian Express’. Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister G Satheesh Reddy, however, said he is unaware of any such move.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 10--1.html

Seems like a well plannned plan to scuttle development of Cruise missile.
Lack of interest or may be a sabotage to buy Russian

On another though. May be a planned test to detect the flaw earlier undetected

 

[piKacHHu]

INS= Inertial Navigation System
Gyroscope is used along with accelerometers in INS. Gyroscopes give us the absolute orientation of the vehicle. Without a knowledge about the instantaneous orientation of your missile in-flight, you cannot give its control fins and thruster the I/P to generate a desired heading.
Gyro gives you stability 'cause it tells you what your orientation is.

Absolutely, without gyro it is not possible to control the test vehicle though I agree that the master controller also process the inputs from accelerometer and TERCOM like pre-fed map/routes as somebody has pointed out. But for any output given by the servo controller to steer or manoeuvre the vehicle, the prime responsibility to keep it stable for that output replies upon the Gyroscope through its continuous feedbacks. It's not only about the navigation but to keep the vehicle stable throughout its intended route.

@Adioz and @piKacHHu ..... Gyro is an important factor in navigation, but one directly cannot relate it with INS. The primary and I'd say the sole purpose of Gyro is to provide stability in pitch and yaw. But Gyro by itself cannot relate to the factor of time and position. At any given time or position it would look solely into the stability of the system.

No there you answered the fact. Gyro provide stability because it tells you what is your orientation. Now once it loses its orientation, it does lose its stability and veers off.
As far as initial orientation is concerned, if it would have been faulty, the missile would have immediately veered off or would not have oriented towards its intended direction. But it did and then it lost its orientation. It means there is definitely some issue with the Gyro which was unable to provide it stability at this stage.

This failure is quite unique because the DRDO establishment doesn't believe in testing faulty stuff to check where the fault resides given the paltry budget they have. That's why delays are acceptable but not the wastage of resource. So I don't buy this theory. There must have something which has gone wrong unexpectedly which they didn't anticipated; like they plugged one hole for this test, at same time other hole's got unplugged due to some strange reasons. Theory of missile export is not very acceptable as US is not going to offer Tomahawk instantly after the closure of the program. For environment stress test part, what I heard was that the flight software was qualified for changing C.G of fuel tank during the whole course of for this flight and here we have a failure at the initial phase of flight so that also doesn't appear to explain the failure.

 

[Screambowl]

[

Launched in 2004 at a cost of Rs 48 crore,

it is ought to fail....

tomahawk alone cost rs.10.7 crores a unit. And they have given only rs.48 crores for the whole project? Are they Insane?

The total project of Tomahawk was US dollar Total program cost: $US 11,210,000,000 = Rs.760346275000 (2016)

 

[Chinmoy]

Absolutely, without gyro it is not possible to control the test vehicle though I agree that the master controller also process the inputs from accelerometer and TERCOM like pre-fed map/routes as somebody has pointed out. But for any output given by the servo controller to steer or manoeuvre the vehicle, the prime responsibility to keep it stable for that output replies upon the Gyroscope through its continuous feedbacks. It's not only about the navigation but to keep the vehicle stable throughout its intended route.





This failure is quite unique because the DRDO establishment doesn't believe in testing faulty stuff to check where the fault resides given the paltry budget they have. That's why delays are acceptable but not the wastage of resource. So I don't buy this theory. There must have something which has gone wrong unexpectedly which they didn't anticipated; like they plugged one hole for this test, at same time other hole's got unplugged due to some strange reasons. Theory of missile export is not very acceptable as US is not going to offer Tomahawk instantly after the closure of the program. For environment stress test part, what I heard was that the flight software was qualified for changing C.G of fuel tank during the whole course of for this flight and here we have a failure at the initial phase of flight so that also doesn't appear to explain the failure.

It might be, it might not be. As many have suggested, DRDO for sure has tested a faulty system with well known facts of its shortcomings. So it might be a well planned test to figure out god knows what, or it might be another well planned flight to save someones back.
Nevertheless, if they have found out the issue and be able to resolve it, the failure would be a success in itself.

Although the idea could be far flung, but I dearly hope that DRDO too should atleast start playing a bit with media over here.

 

[kurup]

You know, I trust on MTCR stats and out of 94 missile technologies defined by MTCR,
China has 92, India has 81 but Pak at only 39..

Can you please provide a link for this claim.

 

[kurup]

Launched in 2004 at a cost of Rs 48 crore,

Just 48 crore for such a massive project ..... ...... must be a typo .

 

[Spectribution]

Now brahmos is getting 600 km+ range and is proven , tested and superior in every way. Nirbhay is 700 km and not yet been configured for ship launch. Is it safe to say that this may be active sabotage by DRDO?

 

[piKacHHu]

Now brahmos is getting 600 km+ range and is proven , tested and superior in every way. Nirbhay is 700 km and not yet been configured for ship launch. Is it safe to say that this may be active sabotage by DRDO?

Nirbhaya and Brahmos are different missiles with entirely different capabilities and one can't be substituted by other just on the pretext that both are cruise missiles. Nirbhaya has much longer range, ability to loiter and manoeuvre, and capability to deliver various types of war heads and sub munitions which is not possible to do with Brahmos. Moreover, Brahmos is evolved from anti-shipping role which relies on warhead+kinetic energy combine to destroy enemy ships so it's has its own limitations. Another distinguishing feature is, Nirbhaya can be configured for delivering nuclear warheads. So sabotage angle doesn't hold good as this development has to be done to equip our upcoming SSKs and Project 15B ships along with land based deployment against Pakistan and China for deep strike. Import options for acquiring such a long range missile is not feasible as it restricts our operational autonomy for delivering nuclear warheads.