Nirbhay Cruise Missile Development

[IndianHawk]

This is one space in which Pakistan lead us considerably

I won't buy that theory that easily. Pakistan haven't proved basic scientific capabilities as of yet. It can have some assembly function tech but nothing more.

Regarding nirbhay . In complex technologies when you hit such hurdles you need a fresh perspective .

This is where India lags. We do not have sufficient numbers to simply rotate them project to project to imbibe fresh views and share best practices.

Also some tests achieved certain milestones that means missile needs work on specific issues only . Project must be revived with much vigor imho.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

The failure is not once but four times ..

Three times, in fact only two times.

• First launch was failure.
• Second one success.
• Third one failed due to deviation of missile from desired path threatening to hit coastal areas. But fault inside could not be tracked.
• The fourth trial was "in exact same configuration" of third one to track the fault. Could be a tukka if succeeded and must have actually created problem for DRDO. So, the intended failure has occurred, a success is achieved. Let's see if they would have track the fault.

Tum sare namunon ko yeh baat explain kar ke mar gaye (we have discussed earlier if I'm not wrong.)
Look! Hardcore anti India pakis from PakDef know better than you.

It was a copy cat of third mission to track the fault actually.

the cruise tech is two decades old ..This is one space in which Pakistan lead us considerably

You know, I trust on MTCR stats and out of 94 missile technologies defined by MTCR,
China has 92, India has 81 but Pak at only 39.

India has been listed up as a producer of turbofans but Pak is not, more to list up about other types of technologies required for cruise missiles.

Whatever you said is right but multiple failures shouldn't be tolerated .

Yup, same happened to our cryogenic program. Look how it matures and how fast it's expanding now? Everyone who used to troll us is nowhere on internet around. It's always good to have last laugh.

Same will happen here.

 

[Vayuputra]

Don't give up on DRDO. Failure is part of success. I'm still convinced that Nirbhay would be included in our armory in the near future.

 

[piKacHHu]

Actually Gyro has nothing to do with INS in first place as popularly believed. The primary job of Gyro is to provide stability and to keep any body fixed in its axis.
INS does work in tandem with Altimeter and Odometer to guide the body. As we all know, maneuvering parameters are pre feed into body and based on its reading in altitude and distance traveled, INS helps in navigating the body. Gyro as of their own can't guide a body nor could control its direction. It simply does provide a idea of its position at any particular given time. So if you have a failed gyro at the first place, your missile would immediately loose its sense of stability and start deviating from its path.
I think this is what had happened this time around.

Gyro is a crucial component of INS as it provides the feedback signal (deviation in Pitch/Yaw) to the PID based controller of test vehicle and it helps in correcting the deviation from its normal course. If the test vehicle veered from its normal path in the initial stage, its likely that switch from thrust vectoring booster phase to turbofan driven cruise phase at low altitude didn't go well. It may also be possible that either turbofan was not able to provide necessary thrust initially or there is a catastrophic failure at the controller end to keep the vehicle in the desired course. Now the onus upon the external committee to do root-cause assessment and place its recommendation in a short time. Meanwhile, we can only guess the outcome !!

 

[cyclops]

The failure is not once but four times ..the cruise tech is two decades old ..This is one space in which Pakistan lead us considerably
Whatever you said is right but multiple failures shouldn't be tolerated .

I too agree that Pakistan is nowhere near India in cruise missile tech.
We all know phekistanis have always been less than forthcoming with their failures and successes, and the public hardly knows the complete parameters of their missile tests, unlike ours who tell us every humiliating detail.
You think they would be boasting with pictures plastered over all pak defence forums of indigenous turbofan and ramjet engines, but we see none of it. That should give you an idea of their lies and propaganda.

So when they say they have "successfully tested" some missile, take that info with a fist full of salt.
I have always been curious as to how their missiles have so few tests and that none of them are ever failures.
Western countries the pioneers of cruise missiles conduct insane amount of tests before inducting their missiles and failures are not uncommon either even after induction, however the phekus can somehow do it in one shot without investing hundreds of millions of dollars, wtf is up with that?
Yeah right only brainwashed sheep will believe that nonsense.
Some how the whole of pak believes that they have been bestowed with rouhani tech that just descends from the heavens only for these gullible fools.
Scrutiny is so abhorred in pak that they just say that their missiles have been inducted after a test or 2 rather than accepting a learning curve.

Prasun K Sengupta of Force India Mag & Trishul Blogspot says that Babur could only fly some 17km in its initial test and 22km in its 2nd test.

@IndianHawk

 

[IndianHawk]

I too agree that Pakistan is nowhere near India in cruise missile tech.
We all know phekistanis have always been less than forthcoming with their failures and successes, and the public hardly knows the complete parameters of their missile tests, unlike ours who tell us every humiliating detail.
You think they would be boasting with pictures plastered over all pak defence forums of indigenous turbofan and ramjet engines, but we see none of it. That should give you an idea of their lies and propaganda.

So when they say they have "successfully tested" some missile, take that info with a fist full of salt.
I have always been curious as to how their missiles have so few tests and that none of them are ever failures.
Western countries the pioneers of cruise missiles conduct insane amount of tests before inducting their missiles and failures are not uncommon either even after induction, however the phekus can somehow do it in one shot without investing hundreds of millions of dollars, wtf is up with that?
Yeah right only brainwashed sheep will believe that nonsense.
Some how the whole of pak believes that they have been bestowed with rouhani tech that just descends from the heavens only for these gullible fools.
Scrutiny is so abhorred in pak that they just say that their missiles have been inducted after a test or 2 rather than accepting a learning curve.

Prasun K Sengupta of Force India Mag & Trishul Blogspot says that Babur could only fly some 17km in its initial test and 22km in its 2nd test.

@IndianHawk

They can't put a tiny satellite into orbit. Missiles are more complicated. It is Chinese north Korean assembly kits they keep boasting about :biggrin2::biggrin2:

 

[Screambowl]

DRDO does use ISRO tech in its ballistic missiles,

But I read somewhere that the Indian space industry has condition to work with other space industries and ToT or get equipment only if they do not share it with the defence or BM projects.

The fourth trial was "in exact same configuration" of third one to track the fault. Could be a tukka if succeeded and must have actually created problem for DRDO. So, the intended failure has occurred, a success is achieved. Let's see if they would have track the fault.

wiki says , hardware problem seems to be the reason.

 

[Rahul Singh]

The failure is not once but four times ..the cruise tech is two decades old ..This is one space in which Pakistan lead us considerably
Whatever you said is right but multiple failures shouldn't be tolerated .

Even if LACM technology is good 20 years old it is still high tech. And except for USA, non has so far demonstrated it successfully in real environment. It is only recently that Russians started to demonstrate it through their Syrian campaign. But do note that both USA and Russian LACMs; Tomahawk and Kalibr has had meet certain numbers of failures. That should tell you everything about complexity wrt to Navigation in any LACM.

Repeated failures, what you call are also referred to as development trials. By the way this is our very first attempt in subsonic regime and we are only 4 tests through. There is a long road to march and there will be many more failures. Do brace for those as well. It's how things work.

And Pakistani Babur LACM. It was inducted straight into service after doing just one test flight. That should tell everything you want to know about this program. You know once on Pee Dee F i had asked how you get to prove all the test points in one test and without repetition of tests you tick box for reliability . You know what was the answer " don't ask us how we do it they must be a way after all we are hard working peoples and we are muslims so we are winner as destined by allah" . Get the idea!

 

[Rahul Singh]

Mirage 2000 is war proven.
Tejas not. And need some more years to.
This is a small but crucial difference.

By that logic a F-15 upgrade pack-edge should cost more than that of a brand new Rafale.

War proven; yeah of course when it was shoot down by low tech Serbians using even low tech Igla. And by the way during Kargil Mirage 2000H was used only as a bomber working under air cover provided by Mig-29s. So much for multi role capability!

 

[charlie]

Mirage 2000 is war proven.
Tejas not. And need some more years to.
This is a small but crucial difference.

Well the Mirage 2000 deal was a disaster, because of few people in Indian Airforce a lot of money was sunk in that deal. I don't blame the french sometime to upgraded or to repair it might take more money then to purchase a new platform.

 

[Hari Sud]

Shut the Nirbhay project down. It has brought mostly pain and lowering of the national mood. Four trials are enough.

Fire all the scientists, engineers and technicians so that it becomes a lesson to others to shake them out of their lethargy.

 

[charlie]

Shut the Nirbhay project down. It has brought mostly pain and lowering of the national mood. Four trials are enough.

Fire all the scientists, engineers and technicians so that it becomes a lesson to others to shake them out of their lethargy.

well we have lot of time and right now the research cost in India is much lower compared to other countries so the more we spent on research now it will be better.

well the first vessel to use Nirbhay will be P15B that will come online by 2018 I guess. so the situation is not that bad. I hope they find the fault this time as that's the most toughest part.

 

[ezsasa]

I am beginning to think after looking at the comments after almost every failure, that DRDO is caught between their need to justify their existence and pressure of being India's only premier defence research agency.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

Firstly I would not blame DRDO for this. Tomohawks have been miserable failures in every conflict including Serbia, Libya Afghanistan with several dozen missing their mark. A much better way to strike conventionally is quasi ballistic missile, that is a missile which takes a ballistic trajectory upto a certain height and then flies like a cruise missile. Infact DRDO is developing such a missile based on Shaurya with longer range. Its called Pralay. China has already developed one called DFDZ. Kalibr is Russia's QBM. Moreover QBM launch would not be automatically considered a nuclear attack by any receptor country as typically their radars would monitor the trajectory upto mid course at least before making any launch decision. In any case we should reiterate our NFU strategy. A 1500 km QBM developed by India will have a crippling impact on Chinese and Pak military forces.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

The problem with terrain hugging feature of subsonic missile is the enormous complexity in control mechanism which also has to be robust enough to be mass produced. The Pakistanis typically lie as Babur has mostly been tested in 300-500km window which means its range is miniscule. Comparing Babur with Nirbhay or tomahawk is useless as the latter is designed to fly over 1000km.

 

[Chinmoy]

@Adioz and @piKacHHu ..... Gyro is an important factor in navigation, but one directly cannot relate it with INS. The primary and I'd say the sole purpose of Gyro is to provide stability in pitch and yaw. But Gyro by itself cannot relate to the factor of time and position. At any given time or position it would look solely into the stability of the system.
BTW engine failure can't be ruled out completely as I've already mentioned few days back in this very thread. Every failure did occurred during firing the 2nd stage or after engaging the 2nd stage.

@Screambowl .... Actually as opposed to popular believe, DRDO and HAL are actively engaged with PSLV and GSLV programme. If you remember the last SCRAMJET test by ISRO, you might be aware that SCRAMJET tech is actually brain child of DRDO in the form of HSTDV. Actually it is the first test flight of the technology as DRDO had only done the ground test of the system.

 

[tejas warrior]

EXCLUSIVE: DRDO's cruise missile project Nirbhay on verge of closure
By Hemant Kumar Rout | Express News Service | Published: 23rd December 2016 01:52 AM |

BHUBANESWAR: Once a pride for Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), India’s own cruise missile project Nirbhay is on the verge of closure.

A highly placed source told ‘The New Indian Express’ that the project is likely to be closed as the missile has failed to deliver desired results even 12 years after the project was launched. A review of the project will be conducted shortly.

Nirbhay is the country’s first indigenously built long-range sub-sonic cruise missile which can be compared with America’s Tomahawk in terms of its capability. Designed by Bengaluru-based Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), the missile was designed to fly at different altitudes ranging from 500 meters to four km.

Launched in 2004 at a cost of Rs 48 crore, the projected date of completion (PDC) for the prestigious project was December 31, 2016. However, under trial since 2013, the missile is yet to perform as expected after four attempts in the last four years.

The project has been plagued with difficulties as the scientists are still struggling to fix the problems in the flight control software and navigation system while some others point fingers at the hardware.

While the Research Centre Imarat (RCI) blamed ADE-developed software, ADE was pointing towards the defective hardware supplied by RCI. “However, it could not be ascertained which is defective, whether the software or hardware, but Nirbhay missile failed in its fourth attempt,” an insider said.

There has been problem with the control software since beginning. The RCI had developed navigational hardware for their applications and it was adopted by ADE for Nirbhay. There are always differences between ADE and RCI regarding its functional efficacy, the source claimed.

Defence experts have raised questions on the requirement of such a subsonic missile, which can cruise at a speed of 0.8 Mach, when supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, developed jointly with Russia, is already inducted in the armed forces.

BrahMos, which flies at a speed of Mach 3, has a strike range of 290 km. Though Nirbhay can strike targets 1,000 km away, with India joining the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), it can now develop long range cruise missiles as joint ventures.

While initially the expected cost of ‘Nirbhay’ was around Rs 10 crore per piece, DRDO has so far spent more than Rs 100 crore on R&D and trials.

DRDO Chief Selvin Christopher and Project Director of Nirbhay Vasanth Sastri did not respond to the calls and queries from ‘The New Indian Express’. Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister G Satheesh Reddy, however, said he is unaware of any such move.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 10--1.html

 

[Yodha]

“I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.”
― Thomas A. Edison

Stop being drama queens.

I wouldn't compare Edison and DRDO. 10 years in the making and they don't seem to have a clue about what happened to the missile in its 4th test. They won't do and dont let others do.

DRDO must be awarded the best babudom award. Do you know what the Pakis call it, Pakistan's secret agency. It did more harm in terms of India's image in the international view.

People are not being drama queens. It's just they are fed up with the low level shit that's going on in DRDO.

Every other day, we see a tender from our forces about NVDs, sniper rifles and other small arms. These DRDO babus can't design a fucking LMG. God knows what may happen if they design one.

They continue the saga of fucking things again and again with out any shame.

 

[Yodha]

“I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.”
DRDO

:biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::bounce::bounce::bounce:

And they will keep doing it for another 10,000 times.

 

[Yodha]

well we have lot of time and right now the research cost in India is much lower compared to other countries so the more we spent on research now it will be better.

well the first vessel to use Nirbhay will be P15B that will come online by 2018 I guess. so the situation is not that bad. I hope they find the fault this time as that's the most toughest part.

Ghanta time and cash. Stop rotating around Pakistan. Pakistan is done. We have to build our doctrine around China. And they have a defence budget thrice the amount we have and they don't waste a single minute of time.

Y-20, J-20, Z-10,T-99, marine S&R plane. All of these are completed way faster than their estimates. Their drone programmes are way ahead of ours Their artillery and rocket regiments are bigger and technically advanced than ours. They are building Corvettes like there is no tomorrow. We don't have an A-SAT weapon. And I don want to comment about their missile programme. They reverse engineered the s-300 and made hq-9s like a fucking rat breeds it's offsprings and they have copied French SAMs. They are making money over their copied machinery.

We need to shun this "time and money concept". These guys need to be held by a noose around their necks and made to work.

The only area they are lagging is the development of engines for their fighter planes.