MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

[Rahul Singh]

hmmm.... well belonging to a family having ppl placed high in IAF and MOD... F/A-18 is what mmrca is all about... you like it or not but f/a-18 are coming...
but dont loose hope even migs are coming after 2013

After buying F-18s, why go for Migs thereafter? Are we planing to bailout Mig corporation? I don't see any logic whatsoever.

 

[Tshering22]

After buying F-18s, why go for Migs thereafter? Are we planing to bailout Mig corporation? I don't see any logic whatsoever.

Actually, I have some very valid reasons that SH won't be joining IAF. The recent massive repeat request for P8Is, C-130Js and C-17s AS WELL AS the declaration of GE F414 engines for Tejas over Eurojet is maybe due to trying to keep US happy and the FGFA announcements of $ 30 billion + deal was done to keep Russia content. We must look at it this way; there was even a press report that non-defence matters were the key note of our discussions with USA during BO's visit.

MRCA is not going American or Russian way and instead one of the 3 European contenders will win. Even possibly Gripen NG as it is bigger than previous versions and has 8-9 hardpoints carrying more weapons that before + supercruise @ Mach 1.1 as well as its "fastest turn-around time" capabilities. But main battle is between Typhoon and Rafale.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

EF-2000 Are officially killed by INDIAN SU-30MKIs in exercise over INDIA!

KOLKATA: After having successfully staved off an attack by the Red raiders and charting two successful kills, the pilot of the Indian Air Force's Su-30 MKI turned to the Royal Air Force's VC-10 mid-air refueller.

"Permission denied, Blue Two. Raiders still at large," a clipped English accent from the cockpit of the VC-10 responded. The Sukhoi pilot broke away and started a climb in a bid to conserve fuel. He would return to the refueller later. In the meantime, he would try and nail an Eurofighter Typhoon from the Red force.

Actual flying missions of Ex-Indradhanush 2010 started on Wednesday at Air Force Station Kalaikunda after two days of elaborate briefings on standard operating procedures, rules of exercise and familiarisation of the local flying area.

While the RAF has sent in Typhoons, an E3D Sentry and a VC-10, the IAF has fielded Su-30 MKIs, Mirage-2000s, Mig-27s and one of its Phalcon AWACS. This is the first time that the Israeli-made Phalcon is participating in a joint exercise.

"The assets have been combined and divided into the Blue and Red forces. The Red forces are the agressors while the Blue forces are the defending side. The roles of the participants are interchanged throughout the exercise. Both teams consist of RAF and IAF aircraft. The degree of difficulty is being increased by random denial of mid-air refuelling and radar silence. The major highlight of the exercise is the large number of aircraft operating together in limited time and space, putting the skills of pilots and fighter controllers to the test. This is known as Large Force Engagement (LFE) operations," a senior officer said.

He, however, made it clear that the purpose of the exercise is not to pit Indian aircraft against British ones or to evaluate personal skills by encouraging pilots to show-off'.

"Apart from the pilots flying these missions, it is an excellent opportunity for the controllers who would be either controlling these missions or be on board AWACS aircraft as observers. On the technical side too, there will be a number of areas where both the sides can learn from each others maintainance practices, procedures and management of resources with a view to support flying operations," Air Marshal L K Malhotra of the Eastern Air Command said while meeting the participants.

Air Commodore D K Vashist, commander of AFS Kalaikunda said that the aim of the exercise is to enhance mutual understanding and refine procedures.

"During this exercise, specific emphasis will be laid on exposing the controllers (ATC & AWACS) to large force engagements and protection of high-value aerial assets. Another area of emphasis would be the management of logistical needs to move large forces from one part of the world to another," he said.

Read more: War games over Maoist badlands - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...#ixzz10hv2U1xw

 

[vikramrana_1812]

Exercise Gives India Closer Look at U.K. Typhoons

NEW DELHI - India and the United Kingdom began joint air exercises in the Indian state of West Bengal on Oct. 20. Exercise Indradhanush, which concludes Nov. 3, will see the Indian airborne early warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft participate for the first time in any joint operation.

Along with its E-3D sentry AWACS and VC-10 midair refuelers, the U.K. Royal Air Force is fielding the Eurofighter Typhoon, which is competing for the Indian Air Force's $10 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. The exercise marks the first time that the Indian Air Force has engaged a Typhoon and will help the service evaluate the European combat aircraft, an Indian Air Force official said.

Related Topics
Europe
Asia & Pacific Rim
Air Warfare
The Indian Air Force is fielding its Russian-built Su-30MKI and MiG-27 and French-built Mirage 2000-H aircraft.

The joint air exercises will include operations against each other and combined maneuvers to help the pilots improve their skills.

The emphasis will be on exposing the controllers of AWACS aircraft to large-scale engagements and protection of high-value aerial assets in addition to management of logistical needs, the Indian Air Force official said.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4952837&c=ASI&s=AIR

 

[Patriot]

MMRCA Deal: Why We Need It-Points & Counterpoints

BY: JOYDEEP GHOSH For Security October issue

Why Gripen Is a Good Choice for MMRCA

IAF is desperately short of fighters with its strength now below 32 squadrons, and expected to go down further with more aircrafts being retired. While a sanctioned strength is 39.5 squadrons with healthy level of 44 squadrons which India reached only in mid 80s, the aging MiG21 retirement and delay in induction of Tejas meant India had to go for MMRCA. With the announcement date for MMRCA deal winner coming near people are talking a lot of things. Here is a comparison and reasons why Gripen is favorite to win the MMRCA deal of 126 aircrafts with option for 74 more. Here a few things need to be clearly mentioned

a) MMRCA deal was launched to replace MiG-21s.

b) The aircraft chosen has to be a 4.5 generation aircraft with all latest systems.

c) The aircraft has to be a low cost fighter that is easy to maintain.

Eurofighter

1) Some said Eurofighter held the edge with the 99 EJ-200 engine deal for Tejas Mk2 almost in its pocket.

A) But then grounding of Eurofighters across Europe due to concerns over faulty ejection seat (that killed a Saudi pilot) is a major setback.

B) The DOD announcement that GE414 has been selected for Tejas Mk2 pretty much cuts out Eurofighters.

C) Deliveries can be a problem as the aircraft is assembled at one place after sourcing it from various other units.

D) Eurofighter is a double engine heavy class fighter that's expensive to buy and maintain.

E) It has some US parts; if the US gets upset with India over any issue it can be problem to keep them flying.

Super Hornet

2) The selection of GE414 as Tejas Mk2 engines has bolstered the chances of F/A-18 Super Hornet as its powered by the same engine. But chances of Super Hornet are bleak because

A) Super Hornet is very expensive to buy as well as maintain, IAF has specified it wants a aircraft that's low cost and easy to maintain.

B) Super Hornet are double engine heavy class aircrafts

C) India will be required to sign CISMOA, BECA and various other agreements before IAF can use these aircrafts to maximum

D) If the US gets upset with India over any issue, it can starve India of crucial parts, software packages to keep them flying.

E) Its nearly 30 year old design.

Rafale

3) Like F/A-18 Super Hornet has everything going for it because it has virtually no US parts, is a very latest design. But its chances dwindle when we look in to the following

A) Its twin engine heavy class aircraft that's expensive to buy and maintain.

B) It's in service with just with French forces.

C) Deliveries have been behind schedule.

D) It lost out on several deals earlier, considered a black mark.

E) It has some US parts; if the US gets upset with India over any issue it can be problem to keep them flying.

Mig-35

4) Mig-35 is from the trusted old friend Russia, but there are several problems leading up to its non selection

A) Based on Mig-29 its still an experimental aircraft with all sorts developmental work still needed to be done.

B) IAF does not want to put all its eggs in Russian basket.

C) Its priced low but like all other Russian aircraft is expensive to maintain in the long run.

F-16

5) One of the most widely used and combat proven aircraft in jet era F-16 in its IN version has no chance of winning it, because

A) Its over 30 year old design

B) Its in service with PAF a disadvantage that IAF cant let itself exposed to, even if US says India has been offered a design leagues ahead of what PAF has.

C ) India will be required to sign CISMOA, BECA and various other agreements before IAF can use these aircrafts to maximum

D ) If the US gets upset with India over any issue, it can starve India of crucial parts, software packages to keep them flying.

Gripen

6 ) Gripen NG in its IN version has the brightest chance of winning the MMRCA deal. Though some said it will kill Tejas but its not the fact because

A ) Maturation limit of Tejas is likely to be similar to Gripen NG. If India selects Gripen NG, then Tejas & Gripen will compliment each other.

B ) Being single engine aircraft and developed around the millennium design the aircraft is the latest

C ) Its low cost and easy to maintain compared to other jets

D ) Is a purely commercial deal with no political constraints attached?

E) If selected Saab is willing to setup a entire production unit in India itself in association with HAL and work on further developing Gripen

F ) Gripen selection and production in India will help DRDO and HAL to expedite the development and roll out of Tejas Mk2 & 3.

G ) Since both Tejas Mk2 and Gripen NG IN will use the same engine, i.e. F414, with India going for licensed production of this engine from USA it cuts out chances of interference from USA, the only major US component on the plane.

H ) Option for further development on AESA radar, thrust vectoring for Tejas an added advantage

I ) Once India goes for buying cheaper Gripen, Pakistan can be kept out of the deal to buy it in future as we know it's financially difficult to them to buy F18, EF, Rafale.

J ) It is reportedly the only aircraft to have cleared the Leh trails.

All these points very much prove that Gripen is the front runner for winning MMRCA deal but in the end it will be ultimately a political decision.





http://idrw.org/?p=1011

 

[SHASH2K2]

MMRCA Deal: Why We Need It-Points & Counterpoints

BY: JOYDEEP GHOSH For Security October issue

Why Gripen Is a Good Choice for MMRCA

IAF is desperately short of fighters with its strength now below 32 squadrons, and expected to go down further with more aircrafts being retired. While a sanctioned strength is 39.5 squadrons with healthy level of 44 squadrons which India reached only in mid 80s, the aging MiG21 retirement and delay in induction of Tejas meant India had to go for MMRCA. With the announcement date for MMRCA deal winner coming near people are talking a lot of things. Here is a comparison and reasons why Gripen is favorite to win the MMRCA deal of 126 aircrafts with option for 74 more. Here a few things need to be clearly mentioned

a) MMRCA deal was launched to replace MiG-21s.

b) The aircraft chosen has to be a 4.5 generation aircraft with all latest systems.

c) The aircraft has to be a low cost fighter that is easy to maintain.

Eurofighter

1) Some said Eurofighter held the edge with the 99 EJ-200 engine deal for Tejas Mk2 almost in its pocket.

A) But then grounding of Eurofighters across Europe due to concerns over faulty ejection seat (that killed a Saudi pilot) is a major setback.

B) The DOD announcement that GE414 has been selected for Tejas Mk2 pretty much cuts out Eurofighters.

C) Deliveries can be a problem as the aircraft is assembled at one place after sourcing it from various other units.

D) Eurofighter is a double engine heavy class fighter that's expensive to buy and maintain.

E) It has some US parts; if the US gets upset with India over any issue it can be problem to keep them flying.

Super Hornet

2) The selection of GE414 as Tejas Mk2 engines has bolstered the chances of F/A-18 Super Hornet as its powered by the same engine. But chances of Super Hornet are bleak because

A) Super Hornet is very expensive to buy as well as maintain, IAF has specified it wants a aircraft that's low cost and easy to maintain.

B) Super Hornet are double engine heavy class aircrafts

C) India will be required to sign CISMOA, BECA and various other agreements before IAF can use these aircrafts to maximum

D) If the US gets upset with India over any issue, it can starve India of crucial parts, software packages to keep them flying.

E) Its nearly 30 year old design.

Rafale

3) Like F/A-18 Super Hornet has everything going for it because it has virtually no US parts, is a very latest design. But its chances dwindle when we look in to the following

A) Its twin engine heavy class aircraft that's expensive to buy and maintain.

B) It's in service with just with French forces.

C) Deliveries have been behind schedule.

D) It lost out on several deals earlier, considered a black mark.

E) It has some US parts; if the US gets upset with India over any issue it can be problem to keep them flying.

Mig-35

4) Mig-35 is from the trusted old friend Russia, but there are several problems leading up to its non selection

A) Based on Mig-29 its still an experimental aircraft with all sorts developmental work still needed to be done.

B) IAF does not want to put all its eggs in Russian basket.

C) Its priced low but like all other Russian aircraft is expensive to maintain in the long run.

F-16

5) One of the most widely used and combat proven aircraft in jet era F-16 in its IN version has no chance of winning it, because

A) Its over 30 year old design

B) Its in service with PAF a disadvantage that IAF cant let itself exposed to, even if US says India has been offered a design leagues ahead of what PAF has.

C ) India will be required to sign CISMOA, BECA and various other agreements before IAF can use these aircrafts to maximum

D ) If the US gets upset with India over any issue, it can starve India of crucial parts, software packages to keep them flying.

Gripen

6 ) Gripen NG in its IN version has the brightest chance of winning the MMRCA deal. Though some said it will kill Tejas but its not the fact because

A ) Maturation limit of Tejas is likely to be similar to Gripen NG. If India selects Gripen NG, then Tejas & Gripen will compliment each other.

B ) Being single engine aircraft and developed around the millennium design the aircraft is the latest

C ) Its low cost and easy to maintain compared to other jets

D ) Is a purely commercial deal with no political constraints attached?

E) If selected Saab is willing to setup a entire production unit in India itself in association with HAL and work on further developing Gripen

F ) Gripen selection and production in India will help DRDO and HAL to expedite the development and roll out of Tejas Mk2 & 3.

G ) Since both Tejas Mk2 and Gripen NG IN will use the same engine, i.e. F414, with India going for licensed production of this engine from USA it cuts out chances of interference from USA, the only major US component on the plane.

H ) Option for further development on AESA radar, thrust vectoring for Tejas an added advantage

I ) Once India goes for buying cheaper Gripen, Pakistan can be kept out of the deal to buy it in future as we know it's financially difficult to them to buy F18, EF, Rafale.

J ) It is reportedly the only aircraft to have cleared the Leh trails.

All these points very much prove that Gripen is the front runner for winning MMRCA deal but in the end it will be ultimately a political decision.





http://idrw.org/?p=1011

Good points raised but I feel like its written by Pro Gripen writer. He forgot to mention that Gripen also uses many USA parts and is also prone to USA sanction.

 

[Patriot]

It seems journalists are the new mode of advertising & promotion of MRCA players.

:funny_2:

 

[Patriot]

Eurofighter Begins Talks with Indian Defense Suppliers - Reuters

The makers of Eurofighter jets are in talks with Indian firms to plug them into the European consortium's global supply chain, a senior company executive said on Monday, in potential deals worth millions of dollars.

The Eurofighter Typhoon jet is competing with U.S. and Russian models to win a contract from India for 126 fighter jets, valued at around $11 billion. The Eurofighter jet is produced by a consortium of European firms including EADS, BAE Systems and Finmeccanica.

Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault's (AVMD.PA) Rafale, Lockheed Martin Corp's F-16, Russia's MiG-35 and Saab's JAS-39 Gripen are also competing for the order. India last year introduced a new rule that made it mandatory for foreign defence firms to buy 30 percent of equipment from local firms to boost the domestic defence sector, and is now looking to raise the figure to 70 percent within a decade.

The level of local sourcing is a factor that India may consider while selecting a successful bidder, as are other parameters such as willingness to transfer technology to domestic firms or manufacture in India. The stakes are high for domestic and foreign firms. India is one of the world's biggest arms importers, and the government says it plans to spend more than $30 billion to upgrade its Soviet-supplied military over the next five years to counter potential threats from Pakistan and China.

A new KPMG report tops this estimate, forecasting India to spend about $112 billion on defence procurement by 2016, creating offset opportunities worth $30 billion for the domestic industry. Eurofighter sources said the Indian companies Eurofighter were talking to were the defence systems unit of Mahindra and Mahindra (MAHM.BO), India's top utility vehicles maker, and state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

Plans to engage with Indian suppliers were independent of the outcome of the 126 jets order that is likely to be awarded mid-next year, Eurofighter said. "This demonstrates our commitment to integrating India into the programme as a true and equal industrial partner," Bernhard Gerwert, chairman of the supervisory board of Eurofighter GmbH, told a group of journalists in New Delhi.

Cassidian Air Systems, part of the Eurofighter consortium, is holding talks for supply of mechanical and electronic equipment and avionics for the Eurofighter's global supply chain. Eurofighter has already opened a research and development centre in Bangalore and aims to hire 200-250 engineers by 2012.




http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4671

 

[Patriot]

Eurofighter Supervisory Board meets in New Delhi for the first time

Eurofighter has upped its ante on the IAF MMRCA contract. For its long-term cooperation with India, the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH is meeting in New Delhi the first time. CEOs from Eurofighter partner companies which includes EADS, BAE Systems and Alenia Aeronautica are visiting New Delhi from 25th to 26th October 2010.

The Supervisory Board will support the ongoing Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) campaign and propose to the potential Indian partners additional opportunities for industrial and technological cooperation.

Bernhard Gerwert, Chairman of the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH and CEO of EADS subsidiary Cassidian Air Systems, says "The Eurofighter Supervisory Board is meeting in New Delhi to underline the importance we attach to integrating India into the programme as a true and equal industrial partner. Even ahead of any contract, we are ready to engage India's defence and aerospace industry in joint production and research & development (R&D) for Eurofighter Typhoon."

The Eurofighter Supervisory Board members meeting in India also includes Christopher Boardman, Managing Director Typhoon Mission Support & International Programmes of BAE Systems, Enrique Barrientos, CEO Cassidian Spain, and Maurizio de Mitri, Senior Vice President Commercial Defence Aircraft of Alenia Aeronautica.







http://frontierindia.net/eurofighter-supervisory-board-meets-in-new-delhi-for-the-first-time

 

[SHASH2K2]

I feel like makers of Eurofighter and Gripen are very active now a days. They suspect that India may be under pressure from Obama administration to sign a deal in their favour. Thats why they are leaving no stone unturned to make their offer look better when compared to USA .

 

[The Messiah]

Actually, I have some very valid reasons that SH won't be joining IAF. The recent massive repeat request for P8Is, C-130Js and C-17s AS WELL AS the declaration of GE F414 engines for Tejas over Eurojet is maybe due to trying to keep US happy and the FGFA announcements of $ 30 billion + deal was done to keep Russia content. We must look at it this way; there was even a press report that non-defence matters were the key note of our discussions with USA during BO's visit.

MRCA is not going American or Russian way and instead one of the 3 European contenders will win. Even possibly Gripen NG as it is bigger than previous versions and has 8-9 hardpoints carrying more weapons that before + supercruise @ Mach 1.1 as well as its "fastest turn-around time" capabilities. But main battle is between Typhoon and Rafale.

I do hope you are correct.

But with corrupt politicians at the helm we could end up with the worse deal out of the lot ie SH

 

[smartindian]

I do hope you are correct.

But with corrupt politicians at the helm we could end up with the worse deal out of the lot ie SH

how can it be a corrupt deal? first-o fall F-18 is not a untested platform. it has got one of the best survival kit , it also got sum merits and also sum de- merits. we are not purchasing mmrca for pakistan. it is been purchased for defense against china. how can america can stop spares when we are at the war with china. (please dont compare pakistan and India in the same line, spare to pakistan was stop because of waging a war against india )

 

[The Messiah]

how can it be a corrupt deal? first-o fall F-18 is not a untested platform. it has got one of the best survival kit , it also got sum merits and also sum de- merits. we are not purchasing mmrca for pakistan. it is been purchased for defense against china. how can america can stop spares when we are at the war with china. (please dont compare pakistan and India in the same line, spare to pakistan was stop because of waging a war against india )

It has got nothing to with pakistan...i haven't even mentioned pakistan!

It is 30 year old design, maintenance cost is high and usa can never be trusted. Can you guarantee they wont stop supply of spare parts ? usa does what is in there interest and not what is in our interest.

 

[smartindian]

It has got nothing to with pakistan...i haven't even mentioned pakistan!

It is 30 year old design, maintenance cost is high and usa can never be trusted. Can you guarantee they wont stop supply of spare parts ? usa does what is in there interest and not what is in our interest.

how 30 year old design is related performance of a plane, yes we can tell it a proven platform . why should America stop supplying spare to India is there any sense . every country works on it own interest . tell me one country which works on other country interest

 

[The Messiah]

how 30 year old design is related performance of a plane, yes we can tell it a proven platform . why should America stop supplying spare to India is there any sense . every country works on it own interest . tell me one country which works on other country interest

precisely if it suits usa to stop supplies to us then they will. proven platform is a subjective term it means nothing. (there are plenty of older aircrafts that are proven platforms but that doesn't mean we should buy them....in 2025 we will still have these planes and you want to have half a century old planes in our fleet ?)

and the likelihood of european's stopping supply is lower since they see it as "business"

 

[smartindian]

precisely if it suits usa to stop supplies to us then they will. proven platform is a subjective term it means nothing. (there are plenty of older aircrafts that are proven platforms but that doesn't mean we should buy them....in 2025 we will still have these planes and you want to have half a century old planes in our fleet ?)

and the likelihood of european's stopping supply is lower since they see it as "business"

let us talk about the performance of the plane not about the age. if we have feared about spare we should not invited american company to participate,
why are assuming about spares, future is unpredictable

 

[hitenray09]

we r looking for the best ac if US leads then be it

 

[Armand2REP]

we r looking for the best ac if US leads then be it

The best is F-22, and it isn't for sale. Super Hornet is not the best of the contenders. India will choose it for political reasons which is not the right reason. Don't forget that when F-35C comes on line, the Super Hornet production line will close. It is a legacy platform just as the F-16. You can upgrade it until the cows come home, it doesn't make it modern.

 

[smartindian]

The best is F-22, and it isn't for sale. Super Hornet is not the best of the contenders. India will choose it for political reasons which is not the right reason. Don't forget that when F-35C comes on line, the Super Hornet production line will close. It is a legacy platform just as the F-16. You can upgrade it until the cows come home, it doesn't make it modern.

we are buying mmrca for deep strike mission where survivability is critical .super hornet will come with limited TOT (for some classified parts and full tot for other parts).
can you answer this simple question
if rafale is better than F-18 why no other country has ordered it ?
how can you say super hornet is inferior to other contender in mmrca ? can you prove it ?
what are the critical technologies rafale is offering in mmrca .
i agree that at present f-18 is a 4+ generation aircraft, and f22 and f35 are 5th generation air craft it will be unfair to compare different generation aircraft at the same level .
for F-22 type of aircraft we are buying FGFA, and for f-35 air craft we are making AMCA

 

[SHASH2K2]

we are buying mmrca for deep strike mission where survivability is critical .super hornet will come with limited TOT (for some classified parts and full tot for other parts).
can you answer this simple question
if rafale is better than F-18 why no other country has ordered it ?
how can you say super hornet is inferior to other contender in mmrca ? can you prove it ?
what are the critical technologies rafale is offering in mmrca .
i agree that at present f-18 is a 4+ generation aircraft, and f22 and f35 are 5th generation air craft it will be unfair to compare different generation aircraft at the same level .
for F-22 type of aircraft we are buying FGFA, and for f-35 air craft we are making AMCA

Super hornet is not at all a bad plane . Its has 3rd generation of AESA radar and best one among all contenders.Also it have very good electronics warfare suite as well as avionics. Only problem that we may have is limited TOT as well as USA forcing us to sign various rules and regulations like Cismoa or platform sharing agreement . If we decide against SH it will be mainly due to fear of excessive interference by America.