MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

[Armand2REP]

we are buying mmrca for deep strike mission where survivability is critical .super hornet will come with limited TOT (for some classified parts and full tot for other parts).

And Rafale has longer range, more payload, better survivability and more TOT... seems like the natural choice. US has far more political influence however.

can you answer this simple question
if rafale is better than F-18 why no other country has ordered it ?

No other country besides Australia has ordered it, and that was only as a stop-gap. The French Navy and Air Force have ordered Rafale by the hundreds which is enough faith to place in it. It is US political dealings that squeeze Rafale out of sales.

how can you say super hornet is inferior to other contender in mmrca ? can you prove it ?

Already stated...

what are the critical technologies rafale is offering in mmrca .

Briefing Indian media representatives at its Champs-Elysées, Paris, headquarters Dassault Aviation's senior vice president for military sales, JPHP Chabriol, said, ''When we talk about technology transfer, we mean full technology transfer and not in bits and pieces.''

''The way we work, we first have to obtain clearance of the government before putting in our proposal. If we win the order, we can begin work on transferring technology from day one - unlike our competition,'' he added.

Critically for India, the transfer-of-technology (T-o-T) would include that of a state-of-the-art Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar that would provide Rafale the ability to also function as a close battlefield support airborne warning and control system (AWACS), apart from its designed function as a fighter. The AESA radar T-o-T would also include transfer of software source code, according to Chabriol.

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mil_aircraft/20081105_dassault.html

 

[StealthSniper]

The best is F-22, and it isn't for sale. Super Hornet is not the best of the contenders. India will choose it for political reasons which is not the right reason. Don't forget that when F-35C comes on line, the Super Hornet production line will close. It is a legacy platform just as the F-16. You can upgrade it until the cows come home, it doesn't make it modern.

First of all, the F-18 is the most modern fighter available in the competition and has the most advanced technology out of all the fighters currently offered to India, don't be crazy. Also, even though I don't like the F-18 for various reasons, If we do get alot of benefits on the political side of things then I think it's worthwhile for India to consider the F-18 if it helps India out in the longer run. Overall I don't trust America, but they are a superpower and they can offer us alot politically and maybe strategically.

 

[Parthy]

By the above image we can see the advantages and dis-advantages of different contenders.

 

[SHASH2K2]

one major factor that we all forget that whether there is complete technology transfer or not offset policy will definitely bring lots of synergy in our defense industry.

 

[SHASH2K2]

By the above image we can see the advantages and dis-advantages of different contenders.

I would say that it has no information at all. Now a days a plane is all about RADAR , avionics , electronic systems and weapons it carry. . NO on will provide the exact specs online. Thats the reason we will always be in dark about actual capabilities of planes.

 

[Parthy]

Main dis-advantages by each contender:

1. Eurofighter:

a. Maintenance - Its a Dual engine - Maintenance cost/life cycle cost will be more
b. Source - multiple european nations developed different modules for the fighter. So assembling will be a problem resulting in delay in delivery
c. Price - On the higher side.

2. Mig 35:

a. Technology Proven - Even Mig 29 is still on testing phase. Mig 35 is still on testing phase. Might see delay in delivery and we know Russia's poor management in scheduling.
b. Maintenance - Its a dual engine. Upgradation and life cycle cost is more.


3. Dassault Rafale:

a. Maintenance - Again this is a dual engine. Need to look into the life cycle cost.

4. F/A18 SH:

a. Maintenance - Again this is a dual engine. Need to look into the life cycle cost.
b. Combat Radius - The combat radius is very low when compared to other aircrafts.
c. Role - It is more suited for Maritime role and that is the reason F/A 18 has been inducted in US Marine Corps in more no.
d. US deal - CISMO and other agreements. Can't predict when US turns against India
4. F-16 Viper

a. Its there in PAF inventory *** Main disadvantage
b. Model - out-dated aerodynamic model.
c. Combat radius - very low combat radius.
d. US deal - CISMO and other agreements. Can't predict when US turns against India

Gripen:

a. Technology - the aircraft whatever they opted for IAF and the one they got for field trial was totally different. Then they've offered Gripen IN (India specific).
b. Virtually Gripen is out of contest by technology and other factors.
c. Uses US GE F414 engine. May have some outrage if US fighters are not selected.


And now, lets see the Advantage

1. Eurofighter:

a. Avionics - High end avionics and a super cruiser.
b. Better drag with the front Canard... Performed more over equally with IAF MKI during the joint exercise. Should have impressed higher ranks.
c. Better combat radius.

2. Mig 35:

a. Low cost like all the other Russian product - Only good advantage about Mig 35

3. Dassault Rafale:

a. Snecma Engine - Snecma is already into pact for developing Kaveri engine for HAL's AMCA. So the engineers can have a glimpse into the engine.
b. Top Combat radius amongst the contenders
c. Always India has better defence deals with France.
d. Dassault has already proven fighter Mirage 2000 with India.

4. F/A18 SH:

a. Good Avionics and proved American technologies.
b. proved AESA Radar.
c. Less cost
d. Super cruiser.
e. Has GEF414 engine which got selected for LCA MKII.

4. F-16 Viper

a. Battle proven.
b. Maintenance cost will be less.

Gripen:

a. India specific Gripen said to be having a 4th generation avionics (** Should check for this)
b. Low cost.
c. Low maintenance cost.
d. Has GEF414 engine which got selected for LCA MKII.

By the overall comparison, Eurofighter, Rafale and F/A 18 SH has edge over all the other contenders.

We know the tough US deals and dual/belligerent face. So lets not get too much into US side. The money we pay them for the weapons, they're diverting to Pakistan as relief funds and free weapon package to fight against India, indirectly...

Finally, Eurofighter and Dassault Rafale will be the top contenders in MMRCA.. Lets wait and see.... :emot158:

 

[Parthy]

A write up on comparison on fighters.

http://knol.google.com/k/medium-multi-role-combat-aircraft-mmrca-for-iaf#

 

[death.by.chocolate]

And Rafale has longer range, more payload, better survivability and more TOT... seems like the natural choice. US has far more political influence however.



No other country besides Australia has ordered it, and that was only as a stop-gap. The French Navy and Air Force have ordered Rafale by the hundreds which is enough faith to place in it. It is US political dealings that squeeze Rafale out of sales.



Already stated...



Briefing Indian media representatives at its Champs-Elysées, Paris, headquarters Dassault Aviation's senior vice president for military sales, JPHP Chabriol, said, ''When we talk about technology transfer, we mean full technology transfer and not in bits and pieces.''

''The way we work, we first have to obtain clearance of the government before putting in our proposal. If we win the order, we can begin work on transferring technology from day one - unlike our competition,'' he added.

Critically for India, the transfer-of-technology (T-o-T) would include that of a state-of-the-art Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar that would provide Rafale the ability to also function as a close battlefield support airborne warning and control system (AWACS), apart from its designed function as a fighter. The AESA radar T-o-T would also include transfer of software source code, according to Chabriol.

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mil_aircraft/20081105_dassault.html

Rafale's radar is hardly 'state of the art', and what do you mean by better 'survivability'?

 

[Parthy]

Cool Cockpit..

 

[Armand2REP]

First of all, the F-18 is the most modern fighter available in the competition and has the most advanced technology out of all the fighters currently offered to India, don't be crazy.

F-18 has nothing more advanced than Spectra... it doesn't even come with a jammer. Extra purchases must be made for pods that take up valuable pylon space whose performance is not as "advanced". It also has no FLIR, another pod and pylon has to be bought for that. It is really just a watered down fighter that requires a bunch of expensive add-ons to get a similar capability.

Also, even though I don't like the F-18 for various reasons,

We know why, you have been going on and on about the superiority of MiG-35 as long as I have been here. Sorry for your loss.

If we do get alot of benefits on the political side of things then I think it's worthwhile for India to consider the F-18 if it helps India out in the longer run. Overall I don't trust America, but they are a superpower and they can offer us alot politically and maybe strategically.

The purchase of MRCA will shift the balance of favour to one side or the other if it is between Russia and America. A more neutral choice like France or even Sweden would be better for avoiding a political alignment. If it does go to America, India will be making their intentions clear that their new strategic partner is USA, considering all the other things they are buying. It is not what India usually does, which is playing neutral.

 

[Armand2REP]

By the above image we can see the advantages and dis-advantages of different contenders.

From the above image we can see it is BS... Rafale T/W at 0.8, RBE2... no AA, M88-2... no ECO :emot15:

 

[neo29]

Eurofighter Supervisory Board's First Visit To Delhi

he Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH is meeting in New Delhi for the first time. CEOs from Eurofighter partner companies (EADS, BAE Systems and Alenia Aeronautica) are visiting New Delhi from 25th to 26th October 2010. The Supervisory Board will support the ongoing Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) campaign and propose to the potential Indian partners additional opportunities for industrial and technological cooperation.

Enrique Barrientos, Managing Director Typhoon Mission Support & International Programmes of BAE Systems Christopher Boardman, Chairman of the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH and CEO of EADS subsidiary Cassidian Air Systems Bernhard Gerwert, CEo Eurofighter GmbH Enzo Casolini and Senior Vice President Commercial Defence Aircraft of Alenia Aeronautica Maurizio de Mitri.

idrw.org

 

[death.by.chocolate]

F-18 has nothing more advanced than Spectra... it doesn't even come with a jammer. Extra purchases must be made for pods that take up valuable pylon space whose performance is not as "advanced".

Like I said before your posts are hilarious, does not come with an internal jammer...hilarious I tell you.:emot15:

In March 1999, IDECM technical challenges and schedule constraints led to a Navy decision to develop an on-board RF jammer to ensure that F/A-18 E/F initial deployments were made with a self-protection suite. F/A-18 E/F was specifically designed and equipped to carry IDECM, with IDECM systems architecture backwards compatible with ASPJ configuration. It is not considered economically feasible to modify the aircraft to carry another self-protection jammer. A three-phase program to incrementally develop an on-board and off-board RF jammer system for F/A-18 E/F was begun, with the first phase (IDECM Block I) an upgraded variant of ASPJ.

The first phase, IDECM Block I, is an interim F/A-18 E/F self-protection jamming suite consisting of ALQ-165 (Advanced Self-Protection Jammer) and the ALE-50 Advanced Expendable Decoy. IDECM Block I OT-IIIA is scheduled to begin 3QFY00, and will be an extensive operational test of an improved variant of the ALQ-165. IDECM Block II, a second interim configuration, will be comprised of the ALQ-214 Radio Frequency CounterMeasures (RFCM), including the on-board transmitter capability and ALE-50 towed decoy. Transition to this configuration is dependent upon RFCM successfully completing a RFCM OA (to support a RFCM LRIP) and OPEVAL (4QFY01, coincident with F/A-18E/F FOT&E). IDECM Block III will be the final configuration, and will be comprised of ALQ-214 RFCM and ALE-55 FOTD. IDECM Block III OPEVAL is scheduled for 4QFY01, with Milestone III scheduled for 3QFY02.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/budget/fy1999/dot-e/navy/99aspj.html

The ALQ-214 IDECM RFCM (Integrated Defensive Electronic Countermeasures RF Countermeasures System) allows aircrews to respond with confidence against the world's most advanced threats. IDECM RFCM breaks the paradigm by removing the distinction between traditional onboard coherent jammers and end-game only towed repeaters. IDECM RFCM
integrates the best characteristics of both into one affordable advanced system, applicable to multiple aircraft, for maximum commonality. IDECM RFCM goes further to fill survivability gaps created by home-on-jam and man-in-loop command guided threats to provide robust self protection capability.
In doing so, three layers of defense are provided. These include: 1) Suppression to deny, delay and degrade adversary acquisition and tracking; 2)Deception to mislead guided weapons away from aircraft if a track solution is obtained and a launch occurs; and 3) End-game capabilities that make the Fiber Optic Towed Decoy (FOTD) the preferred target, seducing adversary missiles that manage to leak through the first and second layers of defense. Multiple Configurations Available The AN/ALQ-214 can be tailored to customer applications.
· Onboard techniques generator + FOTD
· Onboard techniques generator + onboard transmitters
· Onboard techniques generator and transmitters + FOTD

http://www.baesystems.com/BAEProd/groups/public/documents/bae_publication/bae_pdf_eis_idecm.pdf

Unlike the Rafale the F/A-18 E/F APG-79 AESA radar can be employed as a powerful directional jammer while simultaneously attacking air and surface targets.

Block 2 version of US Navy fighter set to become first to use active array for electronic attack duties

Boeing's F/A-18E/F Block 2 Super Hornet is set to become the first fighter to use its active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for electronic attack, with a planned software upgrade to allow its array of transmit/receive (T/R) modules to be used as a powerful directional jammer.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2006/08/01/208213/fa-18ef-to-use-aesa-as-jammer.html

So, in conclusion the F/A-18 E/F has several layers of protection. In the event of home on jam chase by a guided missile the towed decoy is able to seduce the missile as last resort.

Tell us more about this 'advanced spectra' thingy majiggy I really could use a good laugh. And while you're at it please tell the readers about Rafale's 'advanced' towed decoy system - oh! I forgot it doesn't have one!

:emot100: :happy_2:

 

[hitenray09]

if we go by the reports then typhoon & rafale are leading. good may be something new comes to IAF inventory

 

[Parthy]

Eurofighter Committed to Deepening Strategic Partnership with India:

Eurofighter, its partner companies and the four nation members of the European consortium Germany, the UK, Italy and Spain, are fully committed to deepening the strategic partnership with India.

Paving the way for this long-term cooperation, the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH is meeting in New Delhi for the first time. CEOs from Eurofighter partner companies (EADS, BAE Systems and Alenia Aeronautica) are visiting New Delhi from 25th to 26th October 2010.

The Supervisory Board will support the ongoing Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) campaign and propose to the potential Indian partners additional opportunities for industrial and technological cooperation.

Bernhard Gerwert, Chairman of the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH and CEO of EADS subsidiary Cassidian Air Systems, said: "The Eurofighter Supervisory Board is meeting in New Delhi to underline the importance we attach to integrating India into the programme as a true and equal industrial partner. Even ahead of any contract, we are ready to engage India's defence and aerospace industry in joint production and research & development (R&D) for Eurofighter Typhoon."

Enzo Casolini, CEO Eurofighter GmbH, added: "We have the potential to elevate Indo-European political, industrial and technological relations to a completely new level. All Eurofighter partner countries are supporting the Eurofighter campaign in India. Four nations, four air forces and Europe's leading aerospace and defence companies want to increase their industrial cooperation with Indian defence companies for mutual benefit through the most advanced multi role fighter available on the market."

The Eurofighter Supervisory Board members meeting in India also includes Christopher Boardman, Managing Director Typhoon Mission Support & International Programmes of BAE Systems, Enrique Barrientos, CEO Cassidian Spain, and Maurizio de Mitri, Senior Vice President Commercial Defence Aircraft of Alenia Aeronautica.

http://www.defencetalk.com/eurofigh...ening-strategic-partnership-with-india-29715/

 

[Patriot]

Letters: The real fighter?

BY: Business Standard

This refers to "Scrap the MMRCA, buy US F-35s" (October 19) by Ajai Shukla. The author has suggested scrapping the ongoing procurement of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) by the Indian Air Force (IAF) and instead, buying Lockheed Martins F-35 Lightning II fighters, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). It is, however, important to know about JSFs capabilities and its current status of development.

Apart from being designed in a network-centric combat environment, the F-35 loses out on everything else.

The JSF has the following shortcomings:

* It cant fire weapons supersonically â€" the weapon bay doors fall off if one tries doing this.
* It has only one engine. No matter how good the engine efficiency may be, you all lose the aircraft as a result it will be interesting to look at the loss rate of F-15s and F-16s, which use the same power plant.
* The JSF is not an air superiority fighter, its a bomber. But due to the limited size of its bomb bay, it can only carry a small number of weapons.
* The JSF does not have the same level of sensor fusion as the Eurofighter and requires more pilot intervention to fly it. This increases the cognitive load of the pilot.
* The JSF lacks manoeuvrability since its stealth shaping impinges on aerodynamics.
* Once it has done its job on day one of the war, the JSF has to act as any other aircraft and carry its weapons on pylons â€" this increases the radar cross section (RCS) and decreases its mission survival rate.
* There is no national sovereignty over any of the software on the aircraft, including independent loading of EW Mission Dependent Data. This is even the case with the UK, which is the only level-one international partner in the programme and has invested nearly $2billion as the development cost.
* The cost of the JSF is at least $100 million per aircraft and is likely to increase. There is no clear-cut, well-defined statement of JSFs tactical capabilities or platform performance as on date.
* There is no possibility of local manufacture or joint production for this platform.

All over the world including Turkey, Denmark, Norway and Japan, similar ploys have been adopted by the vendors to create confusion and delay the process of selection. It is quite common for the vendors to state that they can deliver assets by a certain date, which delays the ongoing aircraft selection programme. Having chosen the JSF route, the delivery date of the first aircraft is likely to keep moving steadily to the right, one year at a time, so that the users do not realise that they are falling into the trap.




http://idrw.org/?p=1041

 

[Parthy]

The Eurofighter Supervisory Board members meeting in India also includes Christopher Boardman, Managing Director Typhoon Mission Support & International Programmes of BAE Systems, Enrique Barrientos, CEO Cassidian Spain, and Maurizio de Mitri, Senior Vice President Commercial Defence Aircraft of Alenia Aeronautica.

http://www.defencetalk.com/eurofigh...ening-strategic-partnership-with-india-29715/

They're boosting up for the deal ahead of obama's india visit.. I'm happy with any Non-US figther's selection..

 

[hitenray09]

i want to see IAF bagging the best ac & goi supporting it without politics

 

[SHASH2K2]

Looks like our Ajay shukla is bitten by a dog named F35 .

Join in The Big Fighter Aircraft Debate F-35 versus Gen-4 What is better for India

A short take off and vertical landing version of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Is the F-35 the fighter that India needs?

My article in the Business Standard recommending that India scraps the MMRCA procurement and, instead, buys the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter has stirred up a firestorm.
On Broadsword, there are close on a hundred passionately argued responses, the majority of them arguing against the F-35.
Eurofighter GmbH is in damage control mode, with one of their most articulate and well-informed senior executives interacting in New Delhi yesterday with a string of journalists to send out the message that the Eurofighter would suit India's needs better than the F-35.

Meanwhile, exactly the same argument as Eurofighter's --- almost point by point --- has been received by Business Standard and printed in today's newspaper. Can't be from Eurofighter... after all, the letter is signed by one PR Rajgopal!
Clearly, there is much to be said and debated on this issue.
So far, I have only used the very limited platform of a 900-word column in the Business Standard to argue why I believe the F-35 is the best option for India. Since so many of you --- in my respectful, but considered, view --- have only half the argument, I will make out my full case on Broadsword. This will cover Indian military doctrinal issues, the realities of our deployment stance on the borders, the nature of our threat, and the competing claims of the F-35 versus the other MMRCA contenders. I hope to post the case this week.
Naturally, my argument will be informed by detailed discussions yesterday with Eurofighter and Lockheed Martin... and even more detailed discussions with military experts on China.
If the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force like, they can listen in.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

Eurofighter GmbH is in damage control mode, with one of their most articulate and well-informed senior executives interacting in New Delhi yesterday with a string of journalists to send out the message that the Eurofighter would suit India's needs better than the F-35.

EFT consortium going on a damage control says hell of a lot man, this is not just ajai shukla talking f35, rest assured some very key figures are talking about it.