MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

[bhramos]

Discussion continued from: - http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/sh...sions-Part-III?p=164831&viewfull=1#post164831

Russia's MiG-35 fighter completely meets Indian tender requirements .
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100726/159948373.html

You are correct, Mig-35 meets full needs of IAF and with so many plus attached to it.
But what here is needed is Political will, With the Present Political leaders seeing West and Quality of everything, The Mig-35 has Doubt. Even it wins all Trails sucessfully then its counter parts it will be kept down.
as present government is almost puppet to the west.

 

[SHASH2K2]

You are correct, Mig-35 meets full needs of IAF and with so many plus attached to it.
But what here is needed is Political will, With the Present Political leaders seeing West and Quality of everything, The Mig-35 has Doubt. Even it wins all Trails sucessfully then its counter parts it will be kept down.
as present government is almost puppet to the west.

Good thing about MIG 35 is that with its price tag we can easily go for upgradations and modify aircraft as per our requirements and it will still be a lot cheaper than other planes.

 

[SANJAY AKKARA]

I KNOW THIS IS NOT PART OF THE MRCA DEAL DEBATE BUT JUST TRYING TO BRING INTO PESPECTIVE THAT UNCLE SAM MIGHT JUST BE TRYING TO APPEASE INDIA BY ENSURING THAT PAKISTANI GENERALS WOULD HAVE TO SIGN LOAs to get
anywhere close to the GOODIES THAT THEY WANT AGAINST INDIA ??? ( remember the assurances that the americans have been giving our netas that the goodies would not be used agaist india)

"This is all Pakistan getting

Source :- Written Statement of Vice Admiral Jeffrey Wieringa, USN Director, Defense Security Cooperation Agency Before the House Committee on Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia 16 September 2008


Written Statement of
Vice Admiral Jeffrey Wieringa, USN
Director, Defense Security Cooperation Agency
Before the
House Committee on Foreign Affairs
Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia
16 September 2008

Introduction

Mr. Chairman, ranking member, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the Pakistan F-16 program. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency is the Department of Defense Agency responsible for U.S. Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programs. Pakistan is one of the many countries that the U.S. supports, and the largest FMS program that Pakistan has with the U.S. is the F-16 program. The Lockheed Martin Corporation produced F-16 Fighting Falcon is a multi-role jet fighter aircraft originally developed for the United States Air Force. Designed as a lightweight fighter, it has evolved into a successful multirole aircraft. This aircraft serves as an air superiority fighter with air-to-air, air-to-ground, and close air support missions. The F-16's versatility has proven a success on the export market, having been selected to serve in the air forces of more than 25 nations.
1
Program Specifics
Pakistan presently operates forty-six F-16A/B aircraft. Thirty-two of these aircraft remain from the original forty aircraft that Pakistan bought in the 1980s. Since 2005, the USAF has transferred fourteen Excess Defense Article (EDA) F-16A/B aircraft to Pakistan. The current Pakistan F-16 program is composed of three Letters of Offer and Acceptance (LOAs). The first LOA providing for the production of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft is underway: four aircraft will be ready in June 2010; four aircraft in August 2010; five aircraft in October 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010; and, one aircraft in December 2011. It is important to note that none of the aircraft will be delivered to Pakistan until the Administration ensures that Pakistan is in compliance with the LOA security notes, and the Administration has so advised Congress.
The second LOA provides for munitions and includes: five hundred AIM-120C-5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM); seven hundred and fifty Mark-84 2000 lb General Purpose bombs; seven hundred BLU-109 2000 lb Penetrator bombs; five hundred Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) tail kits; sixteen hundred Enhanced Guided Bomb Unit (EGBU) kits; and assorted bomb fuzes and support equipment. These weapons will be available for delivery to Pakistan beginning in June 2010. However, I would like to emphasize that none of these weapons will be delivered until Pakistan complies with the LOA security notes and the Administration reports compliance to Congress.
The third LOA provides for the Mid-Life Update (MLU) of their current fleet of forty-six aircraft: four of these aircraft are in Fort Worth undergoing Trial Verification Installation, which is part of the MLU program. Under the MLU LOA, Pakistan is procuring Falcon STAR structural upgrade kits for the thirty-two original F-16A/B aircraft and thirty-five MLU avionics upgrade kits for the current fleet (including three of the recently transferred EDA aircraft). There is an option on the contract to procure eleven additional MLU avionics upgrade kits for the remaining eleven aircraft. Pakistan has not yet exercised this option, but plans to do so at a future date.
The Falcon STAR structural upgrade is very similar to that provided to other F-16A/B customers. Falcon STAR replaces critical structural components in the F-16 required to return the A/B airframe to a structural life of 8,000 spectrum hours. Falcon STAR is required to keep the original thirty-two PAF F-16A/Bs air worthy.
The Pakistan MLU avionics upgrade kits are being designed to provide the Pakistan Block 15A/B aircraft with many of the same capabilities as the new Block 52 F-16s that the PAF is procuring. The MLU kit replaces most of the 1980s avionics in the Block 15s with newer, advanced avionics systems from the Block 52 F-16s. The MLU upgrade kits will include: APG-68(V)9 radar; Embedded GPS/INS (EGI); Link-16 data link; APX-113 Advanced Identify Friend or Foe (AIFF); Color Cockpit with Color Moving Map; ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pod; Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) Cockpit and External Lighting; Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS); Reconnaissance Pod capability; improved avionics systems; JDAM capability; EGBU capability; AIM-120 AMRAAM capability; and AGM-84 Harpoon capability. While many of the avionics systems and capabilities are common with the new Block 52s and the MLU, some significant differences remain between the MLU F-16 Block 15s and the new PAF Block 52s: there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time; there are no engine improvements; and, there are no improvements to payload capacity. Overall, the MLU program will extend the service life of Pakistan's original F-16 aircraft and very significantly increase the capability of the Pakistan Air Force to conduct Close Air Support and night precision attack missions. I would like to highlight that in parallel with the significant improvement in weapon accuracy gained by precision guided munitions like JDAM, there is the potential to dramatically reduce collateral damage and civilian casualties.

Regarding program status, the first four MLU aircraft are undergoing work in Fort Worth, Texas now. The USAF schedule for delivery of these aircraft is December 2011. The delivery dates for the remaining aircraft are being refined due to the recent stop work.
Conclusion
Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this important program with you. I look forward to answering any questions that you may have."

NOW THE $$$$ ILLON DOLLAR QUESTION IS ???
CAN WE GO FOR THE SUPER HORNETS ???

 

[BOSS-Is-Back]

can u confirm a report<<<<< EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON SPOKESPERSON CLAIMS THEY HAVE WON THE MMRCA DEAL, THOUGH RESULTS STILL ISNT OUT IN OPEN , BUT THEY HAVE CLAIMED TO BE THE WINNER.. I READ IT ON A PARTICULAR NEWS SITE, BUT I AM NOT GETTING THAT ARTICLE.....

I MAY BE WRONG TOO, JUST CURIOUS TO KNOW...........

 

[SHASH2K2]

can u confirm a report<<<<< EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON SPOKESPERSON CLAIMS THEY HAVE WON THE MMRCA DEAL, THOUGH RESULTS STILL ISNT OUT IN OPEN , BUT THEY HAVE CLAIMED TO BE THE WINNER.. I READ IT ON A PARTICULAR NEWS SITE, BUT I AM NOT GETTING THAT ARTICLE.....

I MAY BE WRONG TOO, JUST CURIOUS TO KNOW...........

This is India . This MRCA deal still has a chance to be cancelled if AK Antony has his way. They may be speculating about the deal but its not open till now. May be next year we may have a declaration. If its SH then it will be declared during Obama visit else it will be after his visit.

 

[ppgj]

seems like i have to reassess my own past observations. :happy_2:

NOW THE $$$$ ILLON DOLLAR QUESTION IS ???
CAN WE GO FOR THE SUPER HORNETS ???

it certainly seems so if one looks at the series of high profile visits of both US military related and US govt related representatives in the last few months.

worth remembering here what Boeing has been saying for sometime now - $30 billion worth sale to indian armed forces in the various tenders.

now -

1. P-8I happened.

2. C-17 is about to happen.

3. Apache and may be Chinnok on the way...

4. now MMRCA most probably going their way...

adds up right??

seems like a quid pro quo vis a vis the Nuke deal.

however there are bottlenecks indian armed forces and the GOI are wary about - CISMOA and EUMA restrictions apart from the LSA!!!

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/us-high-tech-arms-to-india-stumblesafeguards/395975/

if the GOI can get favourable terms - i have little doubt MMRCA going to the FA-18E/F super hornet.

the agreements apart where does the SH fit in the IAF's scheme of things??

seems simpler to answer. the STRIKER role.

consider this -

we have been having regular crashes with Mig 27s with latest being just 2 days back -

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...l-1-killed-25-injured/articleshow/6209687.cms

losing all important pilots whose loss can never be compensated both emotionally and professionally is a difficult proposition for the IAF.

it is well documented they have been having "engine" problems for a long time now. there was infact "unconfirmed reports" of a proposal to arm the Mig 27s with AL 31FP engines that the SU 30MKI carries (HAL is manufacturing). seems like IAF has dropped the proposal. also the fact that only 40 Mig 27s went through the upgrades means IAF deems it not viable for the rest to go thro' similar upgrades.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/01/dare-completes-iaf-mig-27-upgrade.html

considering the fact that Mig 27 may be on the verge of being retired with the non upgraded ones retiring first, being vintage and suffering from maintainence issues - this is where i guess the Super Hornet comes into the picture!!!

fact that SU 30MKIs are "air dominance" fighters (though they have a good strike capability too) in IAF due to their great manoeurability which will clear the enemy air space for the strikers to engage in SEAD missions with escorts (not a must in case of FA 18E/F) provided by the SU 30MKIs and the Mig 29S (being upgraded to SMT standards) - the picture IMO is seeming clearer.

FA 18E/F being not so "agile" (comparatively) and having a great payload carrying capability seems to fit the bill. the fact that it is a great aircraft with the "best" operational avionics with AESA Radar APG 79 being the cornerstone make it a mouth watering prospect for the IAF and also geostrategically USA's weight in the world at large makes perfect sense to the GOI politically - IMO.

the other positives -

1. Boeing being in the most comfortable position to execute the deal on schedule - only makes it easier for both IAF and the GOI, a fact IMO which can't apply to any other contender!!

this is important if one were to look at the falling squadron strength of the IAF!!!

2. Cost - again scores atleast compared to the EF Typhoon or the Dassault Rafale which again will weigh in favour of the SH if "technology" is what the IAF is looking for!!

minor disadvantage with SH being the weight penalty - being a naval fighter, for carrier operations. however this is taken care by the GE414 engines with "EPE" engines coming along the way some time in future.

all in all a great aircraft to have.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/

the other one (IMO a touch better) would be Rafale. :happy_2:

some random observations.

 

[nrj]

SH F18 deliveries will be really fast. This is a quite big advantage to SH IMO. The major roadblocks are EUMA, CISMOA.

 

[youngindian]

MMRCA Flight Eval Report Coming This Week


http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...s/awx/2010/07/26/awx_07_26_2010_p0-243561.xml

 

[StealthSniper]

When it comes to technology, I can agree that the F-18 is not a bad jet because of the technology we can get. But again, we aren't getting full TOT and America is already selling arms to Pakistan (and China is probably stealing tech) and then we have all these agreements that pretty much makes the fighter half as useful as it could be. Another thing I have been thinking about is Russia and some other countries are holding off on selling weapons to our enemies because of the MMRCA, while America is already selling stuff as we speak.

So Russia or the European countries can really make things hard for us if they sell Sukhoi's or Eurofighters to Pakistan or our future enemies. I think we are playing into America's hand and can be controlled by America for a decade or more if we get the MMRCA and I rather have an inferior fighter jet but be able to do what the hell I want with it.

 

[Rage]

Thats the real case. MIG35 deal can be worked out anytime for few dedicated squadrons. I also have feeling that SU35 might also see IAF colors in coming years.

@F18 SH

Hydraulic system & Switching valves problems are new to me. I am worried about the airframe problems it has & since IAF intends to operate them for atleast 20years, I am worried what maintenance costs it might add.

However, F18 will be preferred if MOD wants immediate induction. I am sure F18 deliveries will be fastest to our record. Plus not to forget that F18 has ready AESA & it found one of the largest orders from US forces making it a very proven platform. The bad thing is, we will never know what US puts in EUMA :angry_10:

I have started to have feeling that RAFALE is the strongest player as of now considering all the favorable aspects. But let see what political decision our South block policy makers take.

It ain't just the hydraulics and switching valves that Superbug fliers found to be a problem (those problems were hopefully fixed, since they did occur a while ago), a Boston Globe report found in mid-2007 that a mechanism within the wings was wearing out prematurely, which, while not impacting operation directly, caused a serious fatigue issue that military experts found could drastically shorten the fighter's life from 6,000 to about 3,500 hrs. That prompted the Navy to order the company to make changes in the plane's production and retrofit several hundred planes already operational on aircraft carriers. I also recall severe brake problems the plane had in the middle of 2005, and a more recent report that found about 16% of Block A/B/C/D models were 'aging poorly' due to airframe cracks, far earlier than expected.

I like the APG-79 radar. It sets it apart from the others, especially given the challenge in producing a fully-digitized, solid state radar. But my optimism is tempered by the knowledge of software problems the radar experienced in 2007, including aircombat maneuvering modes that took multiple seconds to lock on. I don't know if they've been fully resolved, I suspect they are. But that only serves to demonstrate that a fully-capable AESA was more recent in the making. Btw, isn't Selex offering a fully-functional AESA radar to UK for the Eurofighter? They might be up for offering it to us as well.

But all in all, an F-18 that is a train wreck of airframe problems, wrapped around a fairly decent avionics package, doesn't exactly catch my fancy.

 

[neo29]

We need fighters to engage in combats, not bomb trucks like SH-18 to bomb and runaway. Has US used the SH-18 as an interceptor fighter and replaced the F-16 ?? How do they expect us to consider SH-18 as an interceptor fighter when they themselves dont. Sh-18 is way out of the mmrca, the IAF may have well rejected it.
Besides AESA source codes will be not completely transferred to india. US will never sell fighters to india without making India sign CISMOA which i doubt India will never except for p8's and howitzers.

 

[Crusader53]

We need fighters to engage in combats, not bomb trucks like SH-18 to bomb and runaway. Has US used the SH-18 as an interceptor fighter and replaced the F-16 ?? How do they expect us to consider SH-18 as an interceptor fighter when they themselves dont. Sh-18 is way out of the mmrca, the IAF may have well rejected it.
Besides AESA source codes will be not completely transferred to india. US will never sell fighters to india without making India sign CISMOA which i doubt India will never except for p8's and howitzers.

Would you please tell the members what MMRCA stands for..............

 

[luckyy]

NOW THE $$$$ ILLON DOLLAR QUESTION IS ???
CAN WE GO FOR THE SUPER HORNETS ???

now the main question is :

" Is F-18SH better then the advanced version of F-16 just delivered to pakistan..?

surely IAF will be going for a aircraft which has a deffinate edge over new F-16 ....

 

[luckyy]

Boeing P-8i with India-built subsystems completes design review.
http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defen...esign review



is this going to be the case os MMRCA too...

 

[dineshchaturvedi]

This should have been peace of cake IMO, both F16 offered to India and F18 are more advanced then the F16 delivered to Pakistan. I think that world at large and USA is cautious about Pakistan and it makes sure that the technology offered to Pakistan is not cutting edge. I however feel that India is being offered better weapons and the main reason behind this might be related to balancing with China. However the main bottleneck with USA remains the key agreements that USA wants us to sign before any worthwhile deal can be made. I am pissed off with Indians that they went and ordered P8 and C-130 without getting these agreements cleared, but hopeful that they will work that out.

 

[luckyy]

This should have been peace of cake IMO, both F16 offered to India and F18 are more advanced then the F16 delivered to Pakistan. I think that world at large and USA is cautious about Pakistan and it makes sure that the technology offered to Pakistan is not cutting edge. I however feel that India is being offered better weapons and the main reason behind this might be related to balancing with China. However the main bottleneck with USA remains the key agreements that USA wants us to sign before any worthwhile deal can be made. I am pissed off with Indians that they went and ordered P8 and C-130 without getting these agreements cleared, but hopeful that they will work that out.

fect of the matter is that US never offer any cutting edge technology to anybody ...
Isreal iput there own systems on F-16 , simple reason ,..
IN putting their oun subsystems on P-8 ....
simple reaso that both Isreal and india findout that the systems offered are even inferiour to their domestic ones

my sence is both F-16 and F-18 going to get the lowest grades in IAF evaluation report...

 

[EagleOne]

Boeing P-8i with India-built subsystems completes design review.
http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defen...esign review
is this going to be the case os MMRCA too...

yes not critical tech systems...and also production line in india

 

[Neil]

fect of the matter is that US never offer any cutting edge technology to anybody ...
Isreal iput there own systems on F-16 , simple reason ,..
IN putting their oun subsystems on P-8 ....
simple reaso that both Isreal and india findout that the systems offered are even inferiour to their domestic ones

then why the hell are we buying P-8I/C-130J....??the tech is what makes american weapons better/superior to others.....
simple reason of israel putting its own tech is may be because of cost factor....but they cant alwayz be better than american.....

 

[EagleOne]

The Indian Air Force is set to acquire 126 medium, multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) and the current talk in the Vayu Sena Bhavan is to "leverage strategic gains" out of the $ 10-billion deal.

As the compilation of the flight test results nears completion, the process of hard bargaining is set to begin.

A senior air force officer told Mail Today: "We should use the deal to get concessions on enrichment technology, and accessing dual use technologies that we are denied at the moment." However, before negotiations on these aspects are addressed, a few steps need to be taken first.

The first shortlist for the six types of aircraft-MiG-35, Rafale, Gripen, Eurofighter, F-16 and F/A 18 Super Hornet - will be prepared by the air force on the basis of "complying with the operational requirements of the Indian Air Force", an official explained.

As is the norm, senior air force officers have remained mostly tight-lipped about which aircraft have or haven't made the cut in terms of fulfilling the operational requirements, although some information seems to have trickled out regarding the flight tests wherein one or two of these six aircraft failed to develop "enough thrust" in the high altitude tests held at Leh.

After the air force lists the aircraft that have complied with its "technical" requirements, the ministry of defence will judge the "offset compliance" of the selected manufacturers. In simple terms, that would mean how much of the money would be ploughed back into the Indian economy.

The 'offset' requirement for the MMRCA deal is 50 per cent. This means that close to $ 5 billion would have to be reinvested into India by the company winning the bid.

After this, the "commercial bids" of each would be opened by the defence ministry mandarins, who will, for the first time, examine the commercial offers made by the companies more than two years ago.

For the first time, a new system of costfixing has been introduced that not only takes into account the unit prices but also calculates the 'life cycle costs'-which takes into account the cost of maintenance and spares for the period, estimated at 40 years, the aircraft would remain operational.

On the basis of this, the lowest bidder (L1) would be determined by a commercial negotiation committee headed by an additional secretary of the ministry. The committee will also have members of the service headquarters of the army, navy and air force. They would then conduct price negotiations with the L1 bidder to improve upon the initial offer.

Finally, a paper would be prepared for the Cabinet Committee on Security that would have to give its seal of approval and award the contract. It is at this stage, before the contract is awarded, that government-to-government negotiations would be conducted to get the best additional benefits for the country.

The sheer size of the MMRCA deal ensures that India will get a high level of attention from each of country vying for the largest defence contract in recent memory.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/106816/India/$-10-bn-combat-jet-deal-eyes-strategic-leverage.html

this means are we going to get 126 bomb trucks ????

 

[luckyy]

although some information seems to have trickled out regarding the flight tests wherein one or two of these six aircraft failed to develop "enough thrust" in the high altitude tests held at Leh.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/106816/India/$-10-bn-combat-jet-deal-eyes-strategic-leverage.html

among the six , F-18 has the lowest thrust/weight ratio....