MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

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SHASH2K2

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Does ajai shukla represent a certain interest group, well difficult to say but then he certainly has a past where till the time he was working for NDTV he was the most anti-indigenous chap also back then almost everyone was and if I am not mistaken so was shiv aroor, but then something happened post 2007 (there abouts), ajai shukla left that job and when he resurfaced he became the most pro-indigenous chap around and so did a handful others and post that it was promote drdo, hal etc.
I would say that instead of becoming pro-indigenous chap he was acting against interests of Russian systems. He was making a name for himself and was championing cause of home grown products. Now he is showing who his real masters are. He forgot most important point is that many of our planes are retiring in a year or two. do we have any solution for that if we go for F35 now ?
 

chex3009

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I would say that instead of becoming pro-indigenous chap he was acting against interests of Russian systems. He was making a name for himself and was championing cause of home grown products. Now he is showing who his real masters are. He forgot most important point is that many of our planes are retiring in a year or two. do we have any solution for that if we go for F35 now ?
True, that would leave IAF very weak unless and until the LCA receives the FOC by 2012 and starts induting at full capacity and ofcourse pushing hard for the MMRCA so that IAF receives its first plane till 2014. And after hearing the news about the US' aid to pakistan once again, i would now suggest we should push for AMCA as hard as we could and prefer as less US weapons as possible, also threaten to cancel C-17 deals if possible raising opposition to aid given to pakistan.
 

blade

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Leave aside China . Way Pakistan is getting military aid from USA I am afraid we will be able to beat them in coming years. Today only there was an announcement of 2 billion military aid to Pakistan. in case of F35 we will be forced to sign CISMOA and EULA and that will make us completely dependent on tham and they can arm twist us anytime. We should not get into any deal that compromises our sovereignty . USA has to choose between India and Pakistan and as of now Pakistan is their choice. They are with India solely for economic reasons . They need to make money by doing business with us so that they can finance Pakistan.
Friend your post seems to have three distinct messages 1. 7.5 billion $ worth of arms has been added up with 2 billion more making life very very hard for indian military. 2. F - 35 comes with CISMOA & EULA so huge threat for indian security 3. USA must choose any of the two between india and pakistan.

Reply 1. Hopefully you know this money will be spent over a period of around 7 to 10 years. within the same period india will spend 100 billion $ on airforce, 30 billion for submarines + 15 billion on other surface boats.god knows how much more already been spent and going to be spen on many other sections of military. Dont you think we should feel ashamed of ourselves for such rudali attitude? No wonder in pakintan forum they make so much fun of india.
2. Yes very good things always comes with some price. We can thrash Pakistan without F 35 even without Su 30mki only the casualty will be more but result would remain unchanged. F 35 will be the firewall for india against china not pakistan & there we will surely make the most of it.
3. Why ? why they have to choose any one us? just because we want it that way? come on we are not talking about school or college fest. Its about international politics.They procurements that we made in last 5 years had a deep impact on chinese counter part. Ever thought about that ? The gap has been drastically reduced in spite of all the diplomatic talks that we manage to hear from politicians or top defense officers.brahmos,agni II/III,Arjun, Akash , Several frigates some with really top notch features , nuke sub , su 30 mki , AAD/PAD, Smurch MBRL, highly sophisticader radars, nag , T 90S , barak sam , spyder. look at the list. Thats just too much in 10 years.They have mostly procured from russia but how many times did you hear chinese complain and cry about this ? This is what makes a big guy image in the international forum. US sells a few apache , a few commissioned frigates , a few f 16 blk 52 some advanced A2A missiles And india just cant hold its tears. crying day in day out. Raising sensitive issues at the appropriate level and putting a stop to as many such deals as possible is a welcome approach but hysterically sobbing and crying loud in every occation on make it small for India. JAI HIND
 

SHASH2K2

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True, that would leave IAF very weak unless and until the LCA receives the FOC by 2012 and starts induting at full capacity and ofcourse pushing hard for the MMRCA so that IAF receives its first plane till 2014. And after hearing the news about the US' aid to pakistan once again, i would now suggest we should push for AMCA as hard as we could and prefer as less US weapons as possible, also threaten to cancel C-17 deals if possible raising opposition to aid given to pakistan.
Unfortunately skill of arm twisting is only with Pakistanis not with us. Our ministers are incapable of even dreaming such things leave aside doing so. We have already committed mistakes and we should at least try not to repeat them.
 

SHASH2K2

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Yes very good things always comes with some price. We can thrash Pakistan without F 35 even without Su 30mki only the casualty will be more but result would remain unchanged. F 35 will be the firewall for india against china not pakistan & there we will surely make the most of it.
IS F35 better than 5th generation plane of Russia? Answer is no . so why go for two different planes with same capabilies ? also why to kill our own AMCA due F35.
F35 will come earliest in 2020 and till that time do what ? just 300 sukhois + 50 mirages to protect ourself ?
 

blade

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Unfortunately skill of arm twisting is only with Pakistanis not with us. Our ministers are incapable of even dreaming such things leave aside doing so. We have already committed mistakes and we should at least try not to repeat them.
OH, so diplomatically you have already surrendered to a small , begging , rogue nation which is fighting for its existence? well then i have nothing more to say.true we could'nt do it before so we cant do it in future as well. but did we ever had a second fastest growing economy before? but we have it now right?
 

thakur_ritesh

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I would say that instead of becoming pro-indigenous chap he was acting against interests of Russian systems. He was making a name for himself and was championing cause of home grown products. Now he is showing who his real masters are. He forgot most important point is that many of our planes are retiring in a year or two. do we have any solution for that if we go for F35 now ?
actually no, if you follow his writings for the last few years then he certainly has leaks to most sensitive stuff that is happening on the home front which means he is certainly a trusted lot with in the HAL/DRDO etc circles and if that is that case i am pretty sure where his loyalties lie and that is certainly not with the americans, dont forget he has not at any given time bashed the AMCA if i am not mistaken. he as per me certainly reflects a certain thought process with in the IAF and quite possible like the IN few chaps with in the IAF also want to see this bird and not the other contenders in the MMRCA contest. what i certainly agree with is, he has certainly not answered for the time being what in place of MMRCA but if the news of IAF going for many-many Su30s is correct (much more than the 40 more that are being reported for now) then that means there could be a second line of production for Su30s and that is what will answer the slot of jacking up the numbers and the additional Su30s to be inducted are supposed to be way-way ahead than the previously 230 ordered.
 

SHASH2K2

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OH, so diplomatically you have already surrendered to a small , begging , rogue nation which is fighting for its existence? well then i have nothing more to say.true we could'nt do it before so we cant do it in future as well. but did we ever had a second fastest growing economy before? but we have it now right?
I was talking about arm twisting USA .
 

Daredevil

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I think suggestion of Ajai Shukla is plain stupid because MMRCA is required as a urgent replacement for the retiring Migs/Mirages etc and we cannot wait for F-35 which will be delivered only after 2020 and also it will be more expensive than the current MRCAs in the fray. So, the whole point of having MRCA fighter contest will become useless, not to mention redundancy of 5th gen fighters with FGFA. Current 4++ generation MRCAs are good enough to combat the immediate future threats from our neighbors. F-35 is an overkill for the role MRCA is envisaged for.
 

blade

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IS F35 better than 5th generation plane of Russia? Answer is no . so why go for two different planes with same capabilies ? also why to kill our own AMCA due F35.
F35 will come earliest in 2020 and till that time do what ? just 300 sukhois + 50 mirages to protect ourself ?
I dont like personal attack but i am sorry to say you are very very ill informed at least in this post. Please get more info before making such comments.
1. F 35 along with its EW suits will be as good as PAK -fa but PAk FA has some different advantages for our indigenous industry with no string attached with no or little diplomatic backing of any substance.
2. AMCA has nothing to do with either MRCA or PAK fa apart from learning process.
3. Ever heard anything called mig 29 ? we have 70 of them. mig 21 TU 110. France has only 305 fighter/multirole jets. So until and unless you mean pakistan can beat france YOU ARE WRONG. YES THATS ENOUGH TO PREVENT pakistan multiplied by two. Where as the very sighing of the f 35 deal with USA will keep china at bay.
 

blade

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I think suggestion of Ajai Shukla is plain stupid because MMRCA is required as a urgent replacement for the retiring Migs/Mirages etc and we cannot wait for F-35 which will be delivered only after 2020 and also it will be more expensive than the current MRCAs in the fray. So, the whole point of having MRCA fighter contest will become useless, not to mention redundancy of 5th gen fighters with FGFA. Current 4++ generation MRCAs are good enough to combat the immediate future threats from our neighbors. F-35 is an overkill for the role MRCA is envisaged for.
Yes, this point i completely agree.MRCA has a completely different role to play.My point is we should not go for f 35 not for the worry of CISMOA or US arm twisting its mainly a choice of technical road map.
 

SHASH2K2

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. F 35 along with its EW suits will be as good as PAK -fa but PAk FA has some different advantages for our indigenous industry with no string attached with no or little diplomatic backing of any substance.
But its still not better than PAK FA . I hope you would agree at almost same.

AMCA has nothing to do with either MRCA or PAK fa apart from learning process.
We will have 50 Mirage + 250 Sukhois + 200 LCA MK2 + 250 Pak-FA . How many F35 do you suggest? 100 maybe .
These 100 F35 will definitely take place of AMCA . and in turn make it economically unviable project to pursue.
Ever heard anything called mig 29 ? we have 70 of them. mig 21 TU 110. France has only 305 fighter/multirole jets. So until and unless you mean pakistan can beat france YOU ARE WRONG. YES THATS ENOUGH TO PREVENT pakistan multiplied by two. Where as the very sighing of the f 35 deal with USA will keep china at bay.
You are ignoring numerical advantage of Chinese here . Also when Pak FA and F35 are almost same then sight of PAK FA should also keep china at bay.
 

blade

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But its still not better than PAK FA . I hope you would agree at almost same.


We will have 50 Mirage + 250 Sukhois + 200 LCA MK2 + 250 Pak-FA . How many F35 do you suggest? 100 maybe .
These 100 F35 will definitely take place of AMCA . and in turn make it economically unviable project to pursue.
You are ignoring numerical advantage of Chinese here . Also when Pak FA and F35 are almost same then sight of PAK FA should also keep china at bay.
1. Personally i have a lots of doubt about the actual 5th gen characteristics of PAK - Fa as russia is yet to make a genuine super cruising structure & engine. Electronics are far from as advanced as US stuff. Yet to make a proven AESA. Stealth structure is another point of worry. To make exceptionally high stealth supreme supercomputing is needed which russia lacks.Pak Fa will certainly have better maneuverability compared to both F 22 & f 35 but then 5th gen jet is only 10% about maneuverability and rest 90% is stealth & electronics where gap with USA is just too large to fill up even at the export level.
2. I am not ignoring anything friend rather you are not reading me minutely. i said The very signing of the F - 35 with usa will keep china at bay forget about real f 35. ITS THE DIPLOMATIC SHIELD THAT WILL COMES WITH F 35 AND WILL BE DELIVERED AS SOON AS WE SIGN THE DEAL WITH US.

By the way do you have idea what 40 F 35 can do to pakistan or for that matter PLAAF? Ask them they will tell you.
 
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The Messiah

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Ajai Shukla is an idiot.

And we should not get into bed with usa because it never ends well. Besides yanks will never give it to us unless we become there puppets.
 

Daredevil

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The Central Factor in Selecting the M-MRCA

With the technical, flight and staff evaluation of all the six contenders for the126 M-MRCA fighters now done, time has come to seriously look for a national consensus on the parameters of the selection. This is not a simple acquisition and the decision making will be extremely difficult unless we are clear of the key factors that should be decided upon in advance besides the technical specifications met and as no doubt spelt out in the RFP (Request for Proposals). Our decision must be guided by two basic factors: that nearly a decade has gone past from the time that IAF was looking for a 'Mirage 2000' type to fill the slot that has come to be described as the M-MRCA (Medium-Multi Role Combat Aircraft). This term is critically important for a number of reasons.

To begin with, like in most countries, the Ministry of Defence (ours is at South Block) would decide the mix of aircraft types that the IAF would need in future, based on the operational tasks and capabilities, that is, the quality and the quantity, while the Finance Ministry at North Block would look closely at the budgetary costs of acquisition as well as the 'life-cycle' costs which would have a major influence on defence budgets for the coming decades. An excessively high-performance (beyond the medium level fighter) will lead to higher costs and budgetary commitments which will force the size of the IAF to be curtailed when it actually needs to get back to 39+ combat squadrons and then expand to the Cabinet-sanctioned 50 squadrons. For obvious reasons the bulk of these factors should, and would, remain classified. Yet the informed public in the world's largest democracy needs to have some idea of at least the parameters that might finally go into decision making.

The most crucial parameter has already been indicated by the very nomenclature which provides the description of the type of aircraft required: that is, a medium sized multirole combat aircraft. The necessity of this class of aircraft has arisen due to a number of factors. Firstly, we need to fill the gap that has already arisen due to life-expiry of a large force of MiG-21s. The only 'medium' sized multi-role combat aircraft left in the IAF today is the Mirage 2000 with an inventory of around 50 aircraft. At the level above that, we are already committed to the heavy Su-30MKI being manufactured in HAL for the past few years. And at the lower size level, that is the light combat (multi-role) combat aircraft: we have already embarked on the indigenously designed LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) that was to have replaced the MiG-21s before they went out of service, which Russian-type itself was a 'light combat aircraft'. The LCA's glitches, which inevitably exist in all complex new designs (for example, the F-35), would no doubt keep getting resolved as we go along. Of course it would be useful if the vendor selected for the M-MRCA also gives assistance in incorporating the necessary improvements in the LCA to improve upon it.

In the class of heavy multi role combat aircraft, the choice was made (wisely under the circumstances) a long time ago and the Su-30MKI, which is the envy of our neighbours and the satisfaction of the IAF, is already under series production and this type will likely equip over 60% of IAF's authorised combat force by the time the last Su-30 rolls out of HAL's Nasik factory. No doubt the FGFA fifthgeneration fighter (which is largely based on Su-30/35 technologies) to be jointly developed by Russia and India would at a later date add to the heavy category. About 16-20% of the authorised combat force (around126-200 aircraft) would then need to be equipped by the medium multi-role combat aircraft, the balance 20%, hopefully by the indigenous LCA. This raises the question of what type and size of aircraft we should looking at, subject to its operational parameters for satisfying the IAF needs.

The cost and performance of a combat aircraft broadly depends upon its size and weight and what avionics and weapons it carries. This parameter would virtually rule out the Boeing Super Hornet (an excellent aircraft in its class) and the MiG-35 (for another reason) but both not too far from the Su-30 in size or origin. It would neither be prudent nor affordable to maintain nearly 80% of the combat force consisting of just heavy multi-role aircraft from a single source for the coming decades since the world situation would no doubt have undergone major changes during this period.

At around 24,000 kg maximum weight, the French Rafale and the European Eurofighter Typhoon also come closer to the upper end of a medium combat aircraft. They offer great advantage in the quantum of fuel and weapon load carried, but it is only actual operation and detailed cost calculations that can tell us of their desirability in our inventory. This leaves us with two types with obvious advantages of being clearly in the category of 'Medium' multi-role combat aircraft that have been offered in the RFP: the US Lockheed's F-16IN Super Viper and the Swedish Saab Gripen NG/IN, both configured specially to meet Indian requirements (hence the 'IN' in their nomenclature).

Popular perceptions may opt against the F-16 since this has been mainstay with the Pakistan Air Force since 1982 and recent inductions are raising that force level to as many as 118 F-16s in PAF inventory. These are being upgraded, but are expected to remain somewhat 'inferior' to the F-16s being offered to India which should be taken serious note of. While the F-16 would remain the backbone of the Pakistan Air Force, its Indian version would imply a maximum of 16-20% of the IAF combat force level with the Su-30MKI far outstripping it in numbers. There is also an advantage if the United States is willing to transfer (on lease or sale) 100-odd partially used F-16s from its Air National Guard to the IAF.

However, the choice that comes closest to the 'medium' multi-role aircraft that the IAF has been seeking since a decade ago (the Mirage 2000 type) is the Swedish Gripen which has maximum and empty weights at around 17,000 kg and 7,000 kg respectively, almost equal to that of the Mirage 2000. Since the Mirage 2000 is not in the running anymore, this makes it necessary to focus on the aircraft type closest to the medium combat aircraft, that is, the Swedish Gripen and Lockheed-Martin F-16, with the EADS Eurofighter Typhoon included at the higher end. Gripen's manufacturers could also offer some aircraft from Swedish Air Force reserves as an interim. However much would depend upon what is carried by the aircraft in terms of avionics and weapons apart from its flying performance that meets our needs.

But there is a larger issue that should receive serious attention: this refers to the other matter we set out to deal with, that is the impact of acquisitions from abroad on our aircraft industry in the future. It is vital that the next fighter deal must go well beyond simple purchase and even local manufacture of the fighter and its major systems. Even the licence manufacture option leaves the country dependent on external sources of supply. We were lulled in the past into the belief that 'transfer of technology' was taking place while and vertical partnerships and, secondly, empower India's industry through capacity building with acquisition of modern aerospace technology. Both these principles are crucial to strengthening self-reliance through enhancing mutual dependence with countries and their industries that are willing to do so. These are also important for sustaining our broader techno-economic growth rates. But these requirements can be met only through the reality that it was 'production technology' that was actually transferred and not the essential design technology and data. This is why we have had to go back to Moscow to upgrade even the comparatively less sophisticated aircraft like the MiG-21. We now have the Su-30 being manufactured under license though we don't know how much design data is being transferred to HAL. This is probably the reason for Russian discomfort over inclusion of the offsets clause from new purchases from them.

Large investments in defence modernisation with high-technology weapons, particularly the acquisition of new fighters must be leveraged to energise our defence (especially aerospace) industry once it is clear that they fit into our doctrine and strategy in the larger context of what quality and quantity of aerospace forces are required for the next several decades. This should aim to serve two key purposes: build interdependence through horizontal process of acquisition and horizontal diffusion of technology beyond our present vertically organised hierarchical aircraft design and development model remotely, but firmly, managed from South Block. Global trends in aerospace industry on one side and India's growing technological and economic capabilities on the other, point towards seeking mutual advantages in pursuing the horizontal technology diffusion route. This is where the issue of offsets assumes great importance.

The offsets clause in our procurement policy may be seen by many as infusing FDI to the extent of 30-50% of every contract into our economy. In spite of large reserves of foreign exchange available, future FDI would continue to be an important factor. But this cannot be the primary reason for seeking offsets. We will need spare parts for thirty years or more. In between there will be many requirements of modifications and upgrades of the systems. We should be able to provide as much as possible from indigenous (mostly private) industry through joint ventures that must be negotiated now. The importance and extent of such agreements would be crucial to maintaining high serviceability and low accident rates of the combat force and hence its effectiveness during war over the next three decades, and more.

The IAF's new fighter would require a mid-life upgrade 10-15 years after it enters service and this should provide a benchmark criterion for offsets to establish the ability to design and undertake that in India. This can be expected only if the prime manufacturers establish the necessary design, development and production facilities in country. The Maruti-Suzuki experience of vendor development which has led to high levels of automotive parts exports needs a special look in this regard. It needs to be remembered that design and development is the foundation for self-reliance and till recently this had suffered in our aircraft industry. The new M-MRCA has already been designed elsewhere. But we still have opportunities to access design and development of components, systems and sub-systems in partnership with foreign enterprises.

Ultimately all this must fit into the principle of broader national interests and (grand?) geopolitical strategy to sustain them beyond system costs and performance factors. The question of American 'reliability' will continue to worry a lot of minds for a long time. But in this business, most suppliers would be under the same scanner. European policies in the past have raised doubts about the impact of US policies on even product support and now some EU partners' differences may also impact their future actions. The Soviet Union (and the relationship it had with us) disappeared long ago and new dimensions are already impacting Indo-Russian arms relationship, not the least of them being the Russian highend military technology flows to China and the China-Pakistan strategic nexus where China is one of the two suppliers of high-technology arms for the Pakistan Air Force. The signals that Moscow is sending out are not very encouraging.

In the ultimate analysis our decision on the new M-MRCA must rest on broader national interests.

Air Commodore Jasjit Singh
Director,
Centre for Air Power Studies
 

blade

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Ajai Shukla is an idiot.

And we should not get into bed with usa because it never ends well. Besides yanks will never give it to us unless we become there puppets.
How many examples can you show in support of this comment?Leave out third world poor countries like india & pakistan.I am really keen to know. thanks in advance.
 

The Messiah

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How many examples can you show in support of this comment?Leave out third world poor countries like india & pakistan.I am really keen to know. thanks in advance.
iraq and iran were also in bed with usa in different periods of time. saudi arabia sure is a shining beacon of civilized behabiour in the middle east and i shall not go into south america...only puppet countries get the "goodies" from usa and not countries having there own say.
 

SHASH2K2

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1. Personally i have a lots of doubt about the actual 5th gen characteristics of PAK - Fa as russia is yet to make a genuine super cruising structure & engine. Electronics are far from as advanced as US stuff. Yet to make a proven AESA. Stealth structure is another point of worry. To make exceptionally high stealth supreme supercomputing is needed which russia lacks.Pak Fa will certainly have better maneuverability compared to both F 22 & f 35 but then 5th gen jet is only 10% about maneuverability and rest 90% is stealth & electronics where gap with USA is just too large to fill up even at the export level.
2. I am not ignoring anything friend rather you are not reading me minutely. i said The very signing of the F - 35 with usa will keep china at bay forget about real f 35. ITS THE DIPLOMATIC SHIELD THAT WILL COMES WITH F 35 AND WILL BE DELIVERED AS SOON AS WE SIGN THE DEAL WITH US.

By the way do you have idea what 40 F 35 can do to pakistan or for that matter PLAAF? Ask them they will tell you.
Regarding AESA on PAK FA . They already have that technology with them and are already working on AESA for PAK FA. SO far I know India will be contributing to Electronic warfare suits . Our project for LCA MK2 will come handy in that . We have enough experience in such projects while working in collaboration with Israelis.Moreover we can comment on PAK FA only when its ready .

Friend USA is protector of JAPAN and S Korea both and have military personals stationed there . Does it scares China? They may be worried but not scared . SO your logic of F35 making Chin Shit in pants is not valid. WE already have qualitative advantage against china . We need to work on quantitative aspect as well. Say tomorrow we go for war against china. we loose 50 % of our equipments and china looses 70 % but still china will be in better position to replace them quickly as they can build them at home while we need to place order with USA. Thats why we should concentrate on AMCA rather than PAK FA and F35 both.

about USA supporting India. Its all about political interest . If they feel like its in their interest to support India in war they will support us anyways . IF they have Even very small chance of loss they will stay away from it. so we need to trust ourself and build our own capability.
 
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blade

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Regarding AESA on PAK FA . They already have that technology with them and are already working on AESA for PAK FA. SO far I know India will be contributing to Electronic warfare suits . Our project for LCA MK2 will come handy in that . We have enough experience in such projects while working in collaboration with Israelis.Moreover we can comment on PAK FA only when its ready .

Friend USA is protector of JAPAN and S Korea both and have military personals stationed there . Does it scares China? They may be worried but not scared . SO your logic of F35 making Chin Shit in pants is not valid. WE already have qualitative advantage against china . We need to work on quantitative aspect as well. Say tomorrow we go for war against china. we loose 50 % of our equipments and china looses 70 % but still china will be in better position to replace them quickly as they can build them at home while we need to place order with USA. Thats why we should concentrate on AMCA rather than PAK FA and F35 both.

about USA supporting India. Its all about political interest . If they feel like its in their interest to support India in war they will support us anyways . IF they have Even very small chance of loss they will stay away from it. so we need to trust ourself and build our own capability.
take out china and very next morning u will see chinese fleet in japanese water.Anyway it will take time to change the psychology of indian mass.But remember forge about chinese even USSR was indeed damn scared of them but never backed from talking big.Cuban crisis as well as sino-russian conflict made it evident.
yes we have some experience and expertise in some avionics but compared to USA our overall skill will be USA 70's achievement with some fine tuning.Please dont bring india into 5th gen jet project in any serious front.Yes israel may provide some skills but that too will be very insufficient when compared to the complexiety.There is something call over all technical prowess of a nation & we judge the probable success of a high tech project undertaken by the nation based on this prowess.Even Iran has a 5th gen fighter program so has turkey. So will you really wait to see the final product to know that they willbe inferior to PAk FA or its already evident.I am not talking about just making an AESA as per radio physics. For that matter its already there with russia but as it has been rightly put by the senior members of DFI that installation of zhuk ae in su 30mki ios a useless decision as they are not evevn as powerfulll as the existing PESAs.Experience,Real time data , fine tuning are most vital in radar making russia certainly lacks it in AESA dept.USA has the liberty of checking their on stealthy fighter bombers which russia dos'nt have & it makes a huge difference.
Even to build our capability we need to avoid mechanical war by deplomatic & economic for at least 15 more years and to do that again we need one & only USA.If that means becomming a puppet in their hand for the time being then there is nothing wrong in it. Always support them.Learn from them.Take from them.Once we are balanced on our feet hold them by neck, kick their back and send them out.This is dirty politics man.
 
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