MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

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Patriot

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This so much applauded Mr. Shukla seems to be a part of American defense lobby in India. Whatever , he writes or speak is just YELLOW journalism to make his paymasters happy. As we understand, US is trying get the hold on us in every strategic area on name of war against terror or strategic ally etc. But everything is moving around the business interest of American defence industry and to contain us (INDIA) within the south asian region. US objective is to finally get the CISMOA agreement signed to access to India's strategic locations near Leh, Siachin to keep a tab on China & Pak. We will be used as pawns against China by Americans.

As Rahul said, we can not make the blunder of buying the F-35 at least for IAF, we can think for Navy provided no strings attached.

Our Indigenous programmes are of utmost importance, irrespective of their level of technology. Whatever, we procure must come with max ToT and must not affect our indigenous defense project
 
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Rahul Singh

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Though i doubt Ajai Shukha becoming an American agent because i am reading his blog for no less than two and half years. But i am sure that Sri Ajai Shukla has experimented with his views this time can't say if it is for mere diversification or for plain experiments. Back to point i seriously disagree with him and one point among many is his no less than five articles which stress need to develop what we know call AMCA. Here is what i have posted there in reply.

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Allow me to narrow down the discussion(from my side at least) to how and how much F-35 purchase will affect painstakingly put together Indian Aeronautical Industry?

First thing first purchasing F-35 directly means no AMCA and close to absolutely nothing for ADA to work on for coming 20-30 years. Now few questions that come to my mind. What will ADA people and all infrastructure associated with aeronautics except production will do other than biting dust and corrode? Will we able to retain these brains in that environment? If not than what will be its consequence?

In my opinion, buying F-35 against M-MRCA does answer even half the question it raises.

Like it had been said on BROADSWORD itself that for IAF to be Threat to its Threat it will have to work the ways out with associates to get their requirements fulfilled from home. And i believe any purchase of F-35 will walk across this theory diagonally twice.

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Parthy

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neo, we have to take maintenance cost into consideration too....

Normally, in a fighter's lifetime it has to go engine re-unification for a minimum of 3 times... I'm just probabling on this fact, not sure about the exact times. Correct me, if am wrong.. :emot100:

You know what happened with C-130J as we did not signed CISMOA with US. Certain technologies where restricted.. But Thank God IAF could find some alternates for those techs...

And the MMRCA's requirement is very clear that it requires only 4.5th generation aircraft - Taking cost into consideration. And the more important criteria is IAF is taking Fighter's life-cycle cost with this tender in addition to low-bidding and other aspects.... So, I dont think there's a need to scrap the MMRCA deal just for sake of F-35 which is not for sure..... :emot158:

And think about the time/effort spent till now for this deal... Everything will be wasted.
 

neo29

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@Parthy

Its not my opinion but someone else's. i just posted it :)

Nevertheless there is some juice in what he says as mmrca is taking way too long. Induction will take more time. Its better to go for 5th gen fighter. But unfortunately there aint much 5th gen fighters apart from F-35 that are near ready. If Pak Fa was ready 2 3 years back then mmrca would have likely been scrapped.
 

smartindian

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if we sign mmrca deal next year we will start receiving plane from 2014 or even earlier . if we go for F-35 we will not get a single plane till 2018.
f-35 is also inferior to PAK-FA, when we can buy superior plane for less cost.
we should not go for f-35
 
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Tshering22

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I've never seen a more stupid suggestion than this in my forum life till date. Scrap MMRCAs and buy sanction prone jets? What's this guy talking about?! As such in the last 5 years this is the first time IAF pilots are among highest clocking in terms of flying hours in the world and as if that was something regular since our independence, this clown wants to keep our jets on the ground. There are a dozen countries waiting for JSF which means that we will be getting this after 15 years minimum. Till then we make grandaddy MiG-21s and daddies MiG-29s and Mirages work?

Pure work of American lobbying in Indian circles. JSF is USA's finest and therefore it is unlikely that it will sell them to us unconditionally without any political arm-twisting. Even if we take the liberty of assuming that LM will give in to our demands and terms for F/A-18SH in MRCA (which is a BIGGG assumption and imagination), we can forget same leniency in JSF.

Thanks but no thanks.. we prefer to have unconditionally flying jets all the time and any time needed rather than blade's edge technology that would spend more time under annual LM officials' hawk eyes than in our airspace.
 

blade

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ye pakistan and china would try to destabilize India but i donot think buying `f-18 is answer for that because even if we bought it there is no grantee that wont try to destabilize. so better option is to invest in smart way defensive weapons which can guard our porous borders so that we can prevent any incursion in our border.And yes strong intelligence network
I think you did'nt read my post carefully. I never said just buying F 18 will stop pakistan & china.For that matter even F-22 will not stop them until & unless we have the diplomatic protection from the best of the rest of the world i.e USA & its allies UK,France,germany etc.
 

Rahul Singh

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One more assumption in that article is threat from Chinese 5th gen fighter or in his words " M-MRCAs flying against PLAAF 5th gen fighter".

We don't know about any PRCs 5th gen fighter jet plan except project J-XX as of now. For a second if we even assume that J-XX is a fifth generation stealth fighter program then obvious question that arises is, how good it can be? We still don't know how good SD-10 is? Safely assuming, best it can be just inferior to R-77. What engine it will use? Did PRC operationalised any engine even for a fourth generation fighter lately? Last we hear was about all those AL-31 and R-93 clones still waiting to see any fresh air. What about stealth material? Considering PRC has developed advanced material they will be able to get required for J-XX. But even with this PRC seriously lacks critical technologies to bring J-XX to a level that it becomes a threat to M-MRCAs which at any given day will have support from PAK-FA/FGFA.

I think this whole M-MRCA facing PLAAF 5th gen fighter is a wild assumption and was hopelessly used to add value to logic.
 
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chex3009

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Ya true India shouldn't go for F-35 Lightning II in lieu of MMRCA contract but i think India should consider the option of purchasing atleast 1 squadron of F-35s from the US under Government to Government Military Equipment sales so that it could be delivered to India around 2018-2020 and divide this squadron to operate on INS Viraat and INS Vikramaditya simultaneously hand in hand with LCA Naval Version and the MiG-29K, This will give overall aerial supremacy for the Indian Navy from the Gulf of Hormazd to the South China Sea. This will be more than potent option for any enemy navy surrounding us.

This is said considering India's own AMCA will not be having its naval version. Does the AMCA plans for Navy too? Can anyone help me out with this one???
 

blade

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I've never seen a more stupid suggestion than this in my forum life till date. Scrap MMRCAs and buy sanction prone jets? What's this guy talking about?! As such in the last 5 years this is the first time IAF pilots are among highest clocking in terms of flying hours in the world and as if that was something regular since our independence, this clown wants to keep our jets on the ground. There are a dozen countries waiting for JSF which means that we will be getting this after 15 years minimum. Till then we make grandaddy MiG-21s and daddies MiG-29s and Mirages work?

Pure work of American lobbying in Indian circles. JSF is USA's finest and therefore it is unlikely that it will sell them to us unconditionally without any political arm-twisting. Even if we take the liberty of assuming that LM will give in to our demands and terms for F/A-18SH in MRCA (which is a BIGGG assumption and imagination), we can forget same leniency in JSF.

Thanks but no thanks.. we prefer to have unconditionally flying jets all the time and any time needed rather than blade's edge technology that would spend more time under annual LM officials' hawk eyes than in our airspace.
The time is so grievous my dear friend that either we make a very strong ally with USA or just loose our way and see our dreams perished unfulfilled.What most the people are suggesting right now was appropriate some 10 years back.Just wait for another 4/5 yrs. let most of our jets & submarines retire & you will see the real picture emerging. China is preparing to launch all out offensive against india in every possible dept while pak will join the party.What you are suggesting is again about war preparedness & i am repeatedly saying such approach will will increase risk for us. India in its present form can never win a large confrontation with china forget about all out war. So its prudent to take measures which will help in avoiding one, than something which will give us a prolonged but sure DEATH. weapons such as F - 35 has a great deal of symbolism attached to them. USA will never let a country flying F- 35 to get bashed up by anti lobby country such as china. Look what they have done for pakistan.If USA was'nt there India would have demolished the state of pakistan but F-16 brought them a security which is simply beyond the scope of just a machine however sophisticated it might be. How many country can you name which lost a battle in spite of flying f-16's? They dont sell their top export toys to everyone & when they sell they mean a lot more than just a few piece of metals. You may think India is great but i would not hesitate to state the fact that we are far from being so. We certainly was on top once and certainly have the potential to get back our lost positions.Situation is well poised for that only if we can forget those middles class tit for tat mentality in diplomacy. So wht if they have betrayed us ? If they betrayed us they did so because of our incompetent governance , politicians were busy with internal dirty games to clinch more power.At the end of the day result shows everything. India till day dos'nt have good relation with its immediate neighbors and we talk big about USA's attitude. No one likes a spineless country which after being meek & formal torch bearer of peace for decades suddenly tries to show its guts exactly which India did under the leadership of Indira Gandhi. She showed the world that India too can play the dirty game well enough if required. She cheated USA for a noble cause as well as for strategic interest of indiawhich made the Unkil go mad.World was not ready to see india this way so the reaction was sharp.Even our alliance with russia, Which is'nt or was'nt a saint either, had enough rogue elements in its politico-strategic planning added to this.No Right now many things are at stake, India's permanent membership in UN security council is one of them. They indian choice of "NO FIRST USE" nuke policy will have no meaning if India coulod'nt translate this to some perceivable diplomatic advantage.Frankly speaking this nuke policy is detrimental to india's sucurity in the short term. But to materialize all these we need more diplomacy and less arms.

To be specific Apart from the rogue pakistan there exists almost no other country which faced supply issue regarding f 16 or for that matter any other US defence equipments in generally.
USA is very conservative about nuke proliferation what hey should be. What they never wanted was to see some poor, wreched third world country spending 40% of their life in mosque or temple and rest in begging to have a nuke. After all neither we were better than that nor at least we showed any mentality to show that we can be better than that.We have created a soft, third grade image for ourselves & paying the price for it.The recent racist attacks on indian's are just another form of this stress between elite & native.People who in their child hood heard a lots of stories from his grand mom how any street walker in India is a fantastic magician doing black magic every now and then is not forced work under the indian bosses in best of the companies.So the pain is understandable.It takes time to change the over all image of a nation & especially with our deplorable political culture it will certainly take longer. About arm twisting and all those I would only say that it will be the test of indian diplomacy how much they can turn the ride around and get benefited rather than whinning & crying loundly like rajasthani rudali team.After becoming a super power india will do the same so please lets not act like the epitome of honestly and righteousness.Pandavas won in kurukshetra not because of better weapon & worriers rather it was the diplomacy of Sri krishna which made then through.
 
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SHASH2K2

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The time is so grievous my dear friend that either we make a very strong ally with USA or just loose our way and see our dreams perished unfulfilled.What most the people are suggesting right now was appropriate some 10 years back.Just wait for another 4/5 yrs. let most of our jets & submarines retire & you will see the real picture emerging. China is preparing to launch all out offensive against india in every possible dept while pak will join the party.What you are suggesting is again about war preparedness & i am repeatedly saying such approach will will increase risk for us. India in its present form can never win a large confrontation with china forget about all out war. So its prudent to take measures which will help in avoiding one, than something which will give us a prolonged but sure DEATH. weapons such as F - 35 has a great deal of symbolism attached to them. USA will never let a country flying F- 35 to get bashed up by anti lobby country such as china. Look what they have done for pakistan.If USA was'nt there India would have demolished the state of pakistan but F-16 brought them a security which is simply beyond the scope of just a machine however sophisticated it might be. How many country can you name which lost a battle in spite of flying f-16's? They dont sell their top export toys to everyone & when they sell they mean a lot more than just a few piece of metals. You may think India is great but i would not hesitate to state the fact that we are far from being so. We certainly was on top once and certainly have the potential to get back our lost positions.Situation is well poised for that only if we can forget those middles class tit for tat mentality in diplomacy. So wht if they have betrayed us ? If they betrayed us they did so because of our incompetent governance , politicians were busy with internal dirty games to clinch more power.At the end of the day result shows everything. India till day dos'nt have good relation with its immediate neighbors and we talk big about USA's attitude. No one likes a spineless country which after being meek & formal torch bearer of peace for decades suddenly tries to show its guts exactly which India did under the leadership of Indira Gandhi. She showed the world that India too can play the dirty game well enough if required. She cheated USA for a noble cause as well as for strategic interest of indiawhich made the Unkil go mad.World was not ready to see india this way so the reaction was sharp.Even our alliance with russia, Which is'nt or was'nt a saint either, had enough rogue elements in its politico-strategic planning added to this.No Right now many things are at stake, India's permanent membership in UN security council is one of them. They indian choice of "NO FIRST USE" nuke policy will have no meaning if India coulod'nt translate this to some perceivable diplomatic advantage.Frankly speaking this nuke policy is detrimental to india's sucurity in the short term. But to materialize all these we need more diplomacy and less arms.

To be specific Apart from the rogue pakistan there exists almost no other country which faced supply issue regarding f 16 or for that matter any other US defence equipments in generally.
USA is very conservative about nuke proliferation what hey should be. What they never wanted was to see some poor, wreched third world country spending 40% of their life in mosque or temple and rest in begging to have a nuke. After all neither we were better than that nor at least we showed any mentality to show that we can be better than that.We have created a soft, third grade image for ourselves & paying the price for it. About arm twisting and all those I would only say that it will be the test of indian diplomacy how much they can turn the ride around and get benefited rather than whinning & crying loundly like rajasthani rudali team.After becoming a super power india will do the same so please lets not act like the epitome of honestly and righteousness.

Leave aside China . Way Pakistan is getting military aid from USA I am afraid we will be able to beat them in coming years. Today only there was an announcement of 2 billion military aid to Pakistan. in case of F35 we will be forced to sign CISMOA and EULA and that will make us completely dependent on tham and they can arm twist us anytime. We should not get into any deal that compromises our sovereignty . USA has to choose between India and Pakistan and as of now Pakistan is their choice. They are with India solely for economic reasons . They need to make money by doing business with us so that they can finance Pakistan.
 

chex3009

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The time is so grievous my dear friend that either we make a very strong ally with USA or just loose our way and see our dreams perished unfulfilled.What most the people are suggesting right now was appropriate some 10 years back.Just wait for another 4/5 yrs. let most of our jets & submarines retire & you will see the real picture emerging. China is preparing to launch all out offensive against india in every possible dept while pak will join the party.What you are suggesting is again about war preparedness & i am repeatedly saying such approach will will increase risk for us. India in its present form can never win a large confrontation with china forget about all out war. So its prudent to take measures which will help in avoiding one, than something which will give us a prolonged but sure DEATH. weapons such as F - 35 has a great deal of symbolism attached to them. USA will never let a country flying F- 35 to get bashed up by anti lobby country such as china. Look what they have done for pakistan.If USA was'nt there India would have demolished the state of pakistan but F-16 brought them a security which is simply beyond the scope of just a machine however sophisticated it might be. How many country can you name which lost a battle in spite of flying f-16's? They dont sell their top export toys to everyone & when they sell they mean a lot more than just a few piece of metals. You may think India is great but i would not hesitate to state the fact that we are far from being so. We certainly was on top once and certainly have the potential to get back our lost positions.Situation is well poised for that only if we can forget those middles class tit for tat mentality in diplomacy. So wht if they have betrayed us ? If they betrayed us they did so because of our incompetent governance , politicians were busy with internal dirty games to clinch more power.At the end of the day result shows everything. India till day dos'nt have good relation with its immediate neighbors and we talk big about USA's attitude. No one likes a spineless country which after being meek & formal torch bearer of peace for decades suddenly tries to show its guts exactly which India did under the leadership of Indira Gandhi. She showed the world that India too can play the dirty game well enough if required. She cheated USA for a noble cause as well as for strategic interest of indiawhich made the Unkil go mad.World was not ready to see india this way so the reaction was sharp.Even our alliance with russia, Which is'nt or was'nt a saint either, had enough rogue elements in its politico-strategic planning added to this.No Right now many things are at stake, India's permanent membership in UN security council is one of them. They indian choice of "NO FIRST USE" nuke policy will have no meaning if India coulod'nt translate this to some perceivable diplomatic advantage.Frankly speaking this nuke policy is detrimental to india's sucurity in the short term. But to materialize all these we need more diplomacy and less arms.

To be specific Apart from the rogue pakistan there exists almost no other country which faced supply issue regarding f 16 or for that matter any other US defence equipments in generally.
USA is very conservative about nuke proliferation what hey should be. What they never wanted was to see some poor, wreched third world country spending 40% of their life in mosque or temple and rest in begging to have a nuke. After all neither we were better than that nor at least we showed any mentality to show that we can be better than that.We have created a soft, third grade image for ourselves & paying the price for it. About arm twisting and all those I would only say that it will be the test of indian diplomacy how much they can turn the ride around and get benefited rather than whinning & crying loundly like rajasthani rudali team.After becoming a super power india will do the same so please lets not act like the epitome of honestly and righteousness.
Very True Blade, This is the only time in which India will decide for its fate as a rising superpower or just dream of becoming a superpower all on its own.

weapons such as F - 35 has a great deal of symbolism attached to them. USA will never let a country flying F- 35 to get bashed up by anti lobby country such as china.
This is so true, any analyst can analyse to the deepest and claim that the country having state-of the art equipments were bashed or something like that but they won't find it. It is not because the american equipment is always great even they have flaws, but its the actual US' Political and Military interest in the nation that rises after selling such state of the art equipments, only due to this reasons some of this equipment are safeguarded in the US' interest by some sanctions of sort.

I would give a big thumbs-up to F-35 for IAF and IN for which i have to surrender my own AMCA program as already we are partners in the FGFA project so that it won't majorly hurt us as acquiring capability of developing stealth of our own.

 

chex3009

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Leave aside China . Way Pakistan is getting military aid from USA I am afraid we will be able to beat them in coming years. Today only there was an announcement of 2 billion military aid to Pakistan. in case of F35 we will be forced to sign CISMOA and EULA and that will make us completely dependent on tham and they can arm twist us anytime. We should not get into any deal that compromises our sovereignty . USA has to choose between India and Pakistan and as of now Pakistan is their choice. They are with India solely for economic reasons . They need to make money by doing business with us so that they can finance Pakistan.
Don't agree with u, afterall why would the US work in tandem with Pakistan to hurt India of exploit India on the economic front. India could be the only power in this volatile region of Asia which can play a role to stabilize the region or counter any threat from China up to some extent and Pakistan all on its own. This itself is in the interest of the country like the US who has seen true pakistani colors during War on Terror from 2001 till date. There is a major shift in policies taking place at the global stage right now so some of us would be utterly confused but these are the times when actually the nations are teaming up with each other according to their ideologies, common enemies, common threats and common goal. PEACE.
 

SHASH2K2

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we are not going to become a superpower in coming few years and are far far away from it. If we aspire to become a superpower we need to have our own research and development in place. we cannot dream of fighting China solely on imported weapons. we need to have our own system and should be capable of replacing them quickly in event of a war rather than asking any country to help us. Today USA is propping us because China refused to follow their policy. when Obama Joined the office his first choice of partner in Asia was China not us. He came to us only after china refused their offer. . you never know what will be USA stand in coming future. SO instead of trusting USA compeletly we should try to have our own research and development. I would have supported F35 if we were not part of FGFA with Russia. When we already have similar or maybe better plane at cheaper price going for F35 and killing our own AMCA program is foolishness nothing Else. Tomorrpw if we try or plan to use those birds against Pakistan we will be facing sanctions as it hurts their agenda in Asia.
 

SHASH2K2

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Don't agree with u, afterall why would the US work in tandem with Pakistan to hurt India of exploit India on the economic front. India could be the only power in this volatile region of Asia which can play a role to stabilize the region or counter any threat from China up to some extent and Pakistan all on its own. This itself is in the interest of the country like the US who has seen true pakistani colors during War on Terror from 2001 till date. There is a major shift in policies taking place at the global stage right now so some of us would be utterly confused but these are the times when actually the nations are teaming up with each other according to their ideologies, common enemies, common threats and common goal. PEACE.
I wont say that its intentional but way USA is trying to keep both India and pakistan as its ally its against our interests. It seems you didn't read about 2 billion military aid about to be announced for Pakistan.
 

chex3009

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we are not going to become a superpower in coming few years and are far far away from it. If we aspire to become a superpower we need to have our own research and development in place. we cannot dream of fighting China solely on imported weapons. we need to have our own system and should be capable of replacing them quickly in event of a war rather than asking any country to help us. Today USA is propping us because China refused to follow their policy. when Obama Joined the office his first choice of partner in Asia was China not us. He came to us only after china refused their offer. . you never know what will be USA stand in coming future. SO instead of trusting USA compeletly we should try to have our own research and development. I would have supported F35 if we were not part of FGFA with Russia. When we already have similar or maybe better plane at cheaper price going for F35 and killing our own AMCA program is foolishness nothing Else. Tomorrpw if we try or plan to use those birds against Pakistan we will be facing sanctions as it hurts their agenda in Asia.
I am not in favour of fighting war with those birds, but atleast they could deter them with our ability and equipment.

Thats now what i heard anywhere before, but according to my info, US is not in favour of more than one power centres in the world which could de-stabilize the world terribly and the americans know the nearest to them are the chinese so rather than supporting China they would truly help out India atleas t on political grounds where our babus lack, not militarily to counter China, just like the US-India Nuclear Deal, Lifting of sanctions from some sensitive technology (still some of them exists) and so on.
 

thakur_ritesh

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Does ajai shukla represent a certain interest group, well difficult to say but then he certainly has a past where till the time he was working for NDTV he was the most anti-indigenous chap also back then almost everyone was and if I am not mistaken so was shiv aroor, but then something happened post 2007 (there abouts), ajai shukla left that job and when he resurfaced he became the most pro-indigenous chap around and so did a handful others and post that it was promote drdo, hal etc.

I really doubt people can be labeled as some country's agent and so on and so forth. In this industry people are offered lucrative contracts by individual companies and then these become exclusive in that particular domain or for their entire product range but they remain free to take up more such contracts with non-competing companies. Eg if someone is offered a contract to do write-ups on engines by an x company from America the very same person can have a contract from an Indian company for some other product, so on and so forth.

Anyways I concur with what ajai shukla says but only if the decision is to go for an American jet. As far as I understand, MMRCA will most definitely be a political decision and if it is so it is highly unlikely that we will go with any other aircraft other than the American jets in the fray. If this is what is scripted I dare say we knock off this contest and go for the f35s.

  • We get a 5G aircraft in bargain, which I believe is any day better than any of the contesting aircrafts in MMRCA.
  • India will spend near 20b usd or more on MMRCA so why not put in a little extra and better utilize it and on something which is going to be there till the time 6th gen aircrafts come into horizon and something that will get life time upgrades unlike the other 2 American jets which are in fray for now.
  • Economics of this deal was my biggest apprehension which made me disapprove this fighter jet in the first place, not anymore. If IsAF can get the jets for around 130m usd a piece then I am sure we can lay our hands on it as well at a similar price tag, let us not forget EFT is nearly as expensive which I believe should be good enough for us. Further I don't think with that kind of money/jet is going to be that expensive a proposition for us. The induction of this jet should start around 2020 by when Indian economy if not more will definitely be over and above 4t usd (it already is 1.4t usd and as per a recent report by IMF IIRC in 2015 this figure is expected to double so if we were to sustain similar real growth it could quadruple by 2020 amd if not that then most definitely triple) which means an annual defence budget of no less than 90b usd and a union budget of no less than 700b usd (taking a pretty pessimistic outlook).
  • About AMCA, yes the two are in the same weight category but india has pretty much made up its mind on developing AMCA so I think we will develop AMCA irrespective of our decision on our purchase of another 5G aircraft. Gripen being in fray in this contest or the initial liking of IAF for Mirage200 did not mean india put a full stop on further development of LCA, also I don't think the IAF would like the know-how gained in making of LCA and PAKFA/FGFA and possible ToT on F35 to fizzle out without that being put to constructive use. I think LCA experience has made the IAF a little confident about the ADA on delivering stuff to their requirement. But with AMCA there also remains the possibility of delays, what if this aircraft takes 20years in making? Are we looking at 2030-35 then? We cant be sure of by when this product will be delivered, let us not forget it has taken a lot of time for the Americans to deliver on f35 even after having experience in making of fighter aircrafts for a pretty long time.
  • We have our apprehensions about these jets being American and so prone to sanctions and for this we take Pakistan as an example. We need to focus on the question, can Pakistan and india even be compared and equated? India is expected to be world's 3rd largest economy in times to come and Pakistan is a country which is no less a nuisance value to this world also don't forget in American government's decisions the corporate have the most say, indo-US nuke deal is one such example, add to that the china factor, so I really doubt we will be prone to sanctions. Let us say I am being too optimistic, question to be raised is what could the GoI do in kargil, or post the parliament attack or post 26/11 and even without a single American equipment purchase, we could not cross the LoC during kargil and the governments of the day were more or less were dumb founded on the other 2 occassions, Americans were involved in all 3 instances pretty heavily and whatever was done on our behalf was routed through the Americans and so if we are suggesting that at present the Americans do not have a good enough say in handling of our crises vis-a-vis the sub-continent I think we are being in a denial.

For the time being put all the stress on Su30MKIs and LCA and get the work started on AMCA.

That said, with news like "Obama mission: Billions to Pakistan, billions from India" certainly do not argue well for any such thing to materialize, and all this happening after a pretty stern message from india that the US should not transfer lethal weapons to Pakistan just goes on to show the US has no regards for india's sensitivities and a reflection of the US's arrogance.

All this just makes me wonder how much are our politicians intoxicated in their love for the US, without a doubt there is a very strong lobby of the Americans within the GoI and just in case they have this love oozing out in no proportions then hopefully they make a sensible decision of going for f35s than the two teens!
 

chex3009

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I wont say that its intentional but way USA is trying to keep both India and pakistan as its ally its against our interests. It seems you didn't read about 2 billion military aid about to be announced for Pakistan.
i Got it from u (2 billion in military aid) but what i actually heard somewhere is news todays was that US is offering some security deal to Pakistan in lieu of their Pakistan fully complying to US' operations in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Have you got anything on this???
 

SHASH2K2

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I am not in favour of fighting war with those birds, but atleast they could deter them with our ability and equipment.

Thats now what i heard anywhere before, but according to my info, US is not in favour of more than one power centres in the world which could de-stabilize the world terribly and the americans know the nearest to them are the chinese so rather than supporting China they would truly help out India atleas t on political grounds where our babus lack, not militarily to counter China, just like the US-India Nuclear Deal, Lifting of sanctions from some sensitive technology (still some of them exists) and so on.
USA is nobody's friend . we need to protect our own diplomatic and military interests.
1.We are already part of FGFA so its not that we donot have any option for 5th gen planes.
2. F35 is not coming before 2020 and our plnes will start retiring in nest 2-3 years and we cannot have only sukhois for next 9 years to protect ourself. That will be foolishness.
3. we need to capitalize our knowledge gained in LCA and coming FGFA projects rather than giving USA to make money and at the sametime killing our own research .
4. Given the capability of our neighbors we are not in dire strait and in need of 5th generation planes immediately .
5. there is not guarantee that those sanction will not be back if we cross USA interests.
 

SHASH2K2

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i Got it from u (2 billion in military aid) but what i actually heard somewhere is news todays was that US is offering some security deal to Pakistan in lieu of their Pakistan fully complying to US' operations in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Have you got anything on this???
security deal is military aid for next 10 years. And this 2 billion aid is over that or you may say is the signing amount for that military aid.
 
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