gogbot
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MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)
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chex3009
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I would like to see Dassault Rafales flying in Indian colors as they totally add a new dimension to the force, though AESA is under development but they have offered us AESA as and when delivery starts, that would be around 2013-14. It would not be a totally new platform for IAF to operate as we already are successfully working with Mirage 2000H, though expensive if purchased quantity is 126 and not extending it to 200 would do the job for IAF. But in the meanwhile, i smell a F-18 E/H Super Hornet sneaking in from somewhere, its a very hard feeling thats coming to me. Come November and picture will be slightly cleared after President Obama's visit to India.
Guys what do you think, which MRCA would you like to fly in Indian colors????
Guys what do you think, which MRCA would you like to fly in Indian colors????
Patriot
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France's Rafale jet struggles to hit its target overseas
By Paul Betts
Nicolas Sarkozy likes to portray himself as the executive president. He sees himself as France's salesman-in-chief promoting the country's flagship exports, clinching deals around the world, especially with fast-growing emerging countries like China, India, Brazil and the oil-rich Gulf nations. He has even set up a so-called "war room" in his Elysée palace to support military and civil exports.
But this grand export strategy seems to be running into growing difficulties of late. The new generation EPR European pressurised reactor – supposed to be spearheading the country's ambitions to lead the revival of the world nuclear market – is facing all sorts of problems, not least in Finland, the US and in Abu Dhabi where it lost out to South Korea.
Worse, Eurostar, the Channel tunnel high-speed train operator controlled by SNCF, the French state railway, has just ordered German-built Siemens trains rather than those of its national champion, Alstom. Even more worrying is the continuing dearth of export orders for the Dassault Rafale multi-role combat aircraft.
France has yet to win an export order for the Rafale. It has been trying for a decade without success. Securing a foreign order for this combat aircraft is not just a matter of prestige for the French. After all, Serge Dassault, the veteran controlling shareholder of the eponymous aircraft maker, is also a senator and member of the governing UMP party and owner of Le Figaro, the slavishly pro-Sarkozy newspaper.
But there are more important reasons why Rafale export sales are so crucial. Exports would reduce the overall cost of the programme at the same time as providing funds to help finance new research and technology. Without exports, there is the risk that France would no longer be able to ensure the autonomy of its military aircraft industry, especially when the time eventually comes to develop a replacement for the Rafale.
Last, but not least, failure to export the combat aircraft will put further stress on the country's already stretched Treasury. Indeed, the French Defence Ministry has decided to order 11 additional Rafales next year earlier than scheduled to ensure that production lines keep running. This will cost the taxpayer an extra €800m ($1.1bn).
It is not for lack of trying on the part of the president that France has so far failed to place an export order for the Rafale. But Mr Sarkozy also has a tendency of jumping the gun. He clearly finds it difficult to resist announcing to the world that he has finally pulled off a significant export sale for the Rafale even before the contract is signed and delivered.
A year ago, he announced with great fanfare that France had struck up a privileged relationship with President Luis Inácio Lula da Silva and that Brazil had agreed to buy a first batch of 36 Rafale aircraft. In the long run, the order could rise to 100 combat aircraft. But 12 months later, the deal has yet to be finalised and there are signs that the Brazilians may ultimately opt for the rival Swedish Saab Gripen fighter rather than the more expensive Rafale.
A senior Brazilian government official confirmed this week that Brazil had decided to suspend a final decision until after the second round of the country's presidential elections at the end of this month. He also suggested the competition was still open. In other words, the choice could still go either way.
This summer, President Sarkozy also announced that the UAE was considering replacing its older fleet of 63 French Mirage jets with Rafales. Once again, the French camp seemed confident they had finally clinched an export order for the aircraft in a region that has traditionally been an important customer for French defence equipment. But this month, the UAE suggested it was also looking at the US Boeing F18 Super Hornet as an alternative. So the prospect of success once again risks turning into a mirage.
Elsewhere, Kuwait and India are looking for new combat aircraft but the competition is bound to be fierce. For several reasons. The first is that the US military-industrial complex is intensifying its export sales drive, not least to compensate for heavy cuts in the Pentagon's budget. The second is that Russia is now in the game and has overtaken France as the world's third largest arms exporter after the US and the UK. The third is a problem purely of Europe's own making.
In all these export contests, Europe invariably fields three competing offers of its own – the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Rafale and the Saab Gripen – which is one more than even the US typically offers. In so doing, it gives its US and Russian rivals an obvious advantage. Until the Europeans finally decide to consolidate their combat aircraft industry, they can only continue to lose altitude.
Paul Betts is a senior FT correspondent based in Paris
http://news.combataircraft.com/readnews.aspx?i=1835
By Paul Betts
Nicolas Sarkozy likes to portray himself as the executive president. He sees himself as France's salesman-in-chief promoting the country's flagship exports, clinching deals around the world, especially with fast-growing emerging countries like China, India, Brazil and the oil-rich Gulf nations. He has even set up a so-called "war room" in his Elysée palace to support military and civil exports.
But this grand export strategy seems to be running into growing difficulties of late. The new generation EPR European pressurised reactor – supposed to be spearheading the country's ambitions to lead the revival of the world nuclear market – is facing all sorts of problems, not least in Finland, the US and in Abu Dhabi where it lost out to South Korea.
Worse, Eurostar, the Channel tunnel high-speed train operator controlled by SNCF, the French state railway, has just ordered German-built Siemens trains rather than those of its national champion, Alstom. Even more worrying is the continuing dearth of export orders for the Dassault Rafale multi-role combat aircraft.
France has yet to win an export order for the Rafale. It has been trying for a decade without success. Securing a foreign order for this combat aircraft is not just a matter of prestige for the French. After all, Serge Dassault, the veteran controlling shareholder of the eponymous aircraft maker, is also a senator and member of the governing UMP party and owner of Le Figaro, the slavishly pro-Sarkozy newspaper.
But there are more important reasons why Rafale export sales are so crucial. Exports would reduce the overall cost of the programme at the same time as providing funds to help finance new research and technology. Without exports, there is the risk that France would no longer be able to ensure the autonomy of its military aircraft industry, especially when the time eventually comes to develop a replacement for the Rafale.
Last, but not least, failure to export the combat aircraft will put further stress on the country's already stretched Treasury. Indeed, the French Defence Ministry has decided to order 11 additional Rafales next year earlier than scheduled to ensure that production lines keep running. This will cost the taxpayer an extra €800m ($1.1bn).
It is not for lack of trying on the part of the president that France has so far failed to place an export order for the Rafale. But Mr Sarkozy also has a tendency of jumping the gun. He clearly finds it difficult to resist announcing to the world that he has finally pulled off a significant export sale for the Rafale even before the contract is signed and delivered.
A year ago, he announced with great fanfare that France had struck up a privileged relationship with President Luis Inácio Lula da Silva and that Brazil had agreed to buy a first batch of 36 Rafale aircraft. In the long run, the order could rise to 100 combat aircraft. But 12 months later, the deal has yet to be finalised and there are signs that the Brazilians may ultimately opt for the rival Swedish Saab Gripen fighter rather than the more expensive Rafale.
A senior Brazilian government official confirmed this week that Brazil had decided to suspend a final decision until after the second round of the country's presidential elections at the end of this month. He also suggested the competition was still open. In other words, the choice could still go either way.
This summer, President Sarkozy also announced that the UAE was considering replacing its older fleet of 63 French Mirage jets with Rafales. Once again, the French camp seemed confident they had finally clinched an export order for the aircraft in a region that has traditionally been an important customer for French defence equipment. But this month, the UAE suggested it was also looking at the US Boeing F18 Super Hornet as an alternative. So the prospect of success once again risks turning into a mirage.
Elsewhere, Kuwait and India are looking for new combat aircraft but the competition is bound to be fierce. For several reasons. The first is that the US military-industrial complex is intensifying its export sales drive, not least to compensate for heavy cuts in the Pentagon's budget. The second is that Russia is now in the game and has overtaken France as the world's third largest arms exporter after the US and the UK. The third is a problem purely of Europe's own making.
In all these export contests, Europe invariably fields three competing offers of its own – the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Rafale and the Saab Gripen – which is one more than even the US typically offers. In so doing, it gives its US and Russian rivals an obvious advantage. Until the Europeans finally decide to consolidate their combat aircraft industry, they can only continue to lose altitude.
Paul Betts is a senior FT correspondent based in Paris
http://news.combataircraft.com/readnews.aspx?i=1835
sneha_sharma
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:happy_7:
Rsfael will br great in IAF color...
Rsfael will br great in IAF color...
vikramrana_1812
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Three-star general Zelin lobbies Russian fighter jet in Indian tender
Lieutenant Colonel Vladimir Drik, the official representative of the Ministry of Defence's press service and information administration, reported that the visit was organised at the invitation of Pradeep Vasant Naik, chief marshal of the Indian air force. Besides the high command of the Russian air force, the delegation also includes Vladimir Gradusov, commander of the air force's 185th Astrakhan centre for military training and deployment. During the four-day visit Russian pilots will visit Palam, Jodhpur, Bidar and Bigumpet aviation bases, hold a number of meetings with India's military leadership, and have a look at chief and prospective areas in the Indian air force's development.
Lieutenant Colonel Drik also made clear: "These events are being held to enhance and strengthen bilateral relations in military aviation between the Russian and Indian militaries." He did not say a word, however, about what either side would bring to the table during discussions, which is important, because there is something to be said here.
Readers are aware that military aviation has a special place in Russia and India's military technical cooperation. Military aviation accounts for probably 60% of Russian military equipment and weaponry deliveries to Indostan. Moreover, included in this number, in addition to deliveries, is the joint production of military airplanes. French, Israeli and Indian specialists worked alongside Sukhoi, a major Russian aircraft manufacturer, in producing the versatile Sukhoi Su-30 fighter jet. More than 250 of these fighter jets, going for a grand total of $8.5 billion, have been churned out at the Irkutsk Aviation Enterprise and sent to India's air force. Furthermore, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), an Indian aerospace corporation, was sold the rights to produce the Su-30, while Russia continues to supply parts for it. Information has it that Delhi is willing to buy another 250 of the fighter jets, which are considered to be the best in class.
India bought 16 Mikoyan MiG-29K/KUB naval fighter jets for its Vikramaditya aircraft carrier from Russia for more than a billion dollars. The Vikramaditya is currently being retooled at Sevmash, a Russian shipbuilding company based in Severodvinsk, a port city on Russia's White Sea, although Indian pilots are already getting a feel for the new fighter jets, whether in flight simulators, factory slipways or in the cockpits of the first freshly delivered fighter jets. Delhi has also announced that, in addition to the aforementioned set of aircraft, it plans on purchasing two dozen more of the same model. HAL, in cooperation with Sukhoi, is currently working on a 5th-generation fighter jet that is almost a carbon copy of the Russian T-50, granted, India's will have a dual cockpit, as opposed to Russia's single-cockpit model. It is reported that India is prepared to acquire more than 250 of these airplanes for its own needs, while it will then switch over to manufacturing them for itself and for third-party countries. The joint production of this new fighter jet is estimated to run $8-10 billion, while those putting in orders will shovel out at least 85-100m greenbacks.
A lot can be said about past and future projects that Russia and India have and will participate together in, and Zelin will obviously bring them up with his Indian colleagues. But it looks like that is not all that he will touch on with them.
India's air force is currently holding a tender for supplying it with 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). Russia is taking part in the tender with its versatile MiG-35, complete with a variable thrust vector and other worthy features. Competing alongside Russia in the tender are America's Boeing-manufactured F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin-produced F-16 Fighting Falcon, France's Dassault Aviation-produced Rafale and JAS-39 Gripen manufactured at Sweden's SAAB, while the Eurofighter Typhoon EF-200 is being put forward together by an all-European squad of Great Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain. Tests on the competing models are already being carried out at local air bases in some of the toughest air-combat simulations around, created with the help of remote-control equipment and other mock enemy aircraft. Local media are following the tests closely and at times leak news to the public that really make Indian experts scratch their heads.
For instance, the media reported that the French and European models made it to the final round, while Russia's MiG-35 was cut because the Indian air force leadership regarded its engine as being insufficient. Although India's air force commander has denied these reports as being inaccurate, three-star general Zelin and his subordinate, commander Gradusov, will almost certainly have to invest a lot of time and effort to convince their Indian counterparts that Russia's MiG-35 is still the best in show. Will they be able to pull it off? Only time will tell. But whatever the case, the $11 billion promised to the winner of the tender is enough case in point for Russia's high command to, from time to time, take on the role of door-to-door salesman.
http://indrus.in/articles/2010/09/09/zelin_lobbies_russian_fighter_jet04684.html
Lieutenant Colonel Vladimir Drik, the official representative of the Ministry of Defence's press service and information administration, reported that the visit was organised at the invitation of Pradeep Vasant Naik, chief marshal of the Indian air force. Besides the high command of the Russian air force, the delegation also includes Vladimir Gradusov, commander of the air force's 185th Astrakhan centre for military training and deployment. During the four-day visit Russian pilots will visit Palam, Jodhpur, Bidar and Bigumpet aviation bases, hold a number of meetings with India's military leadership, and have a look at chief and prospective areas in the Indian air force's development.
Lieutenant Colonel Drik also made clear: "These events are being held to enhance and strengthen bilateral relations in military aviation between the Russian and Indian militaries." He did not say a word, however, about what either side would bring to the table during discussions, which is important, because there is something to be said here.
Readers are aware that military aviation has a special place in Russia and India's military technical cooperation. Military aviation accounts for probably 60% of Russian military equipment and weaponry deliveries to Indostan. Moreover, included in this number, in addition to deliveries, is the joint production of military airplanes. French, Israeli and Indian specialists worked alongside Sukhoi, a major Russian aircraft manufacturer, in producing the versatile Sukhoi Su-30 fighter jet. More than 250 of these fighter jets, going for a grand total of $8.5 billion, have been churned out at the Irkutsk Aviation Enterprise and sent to India's air force. Furthermore, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), an Indian aerospace corporation, was sold the rights to produce the Su-30, while Russia continues to supply parts for it. Information has it that Delhi is willing to buy another 250 of the fighter jets, which are considered to be the best in class.
India bought 16 Mikoyan MiG-29K/KUB naval fighter jets for its Vikramaditya aircraft carrier from Russia for more than a billion dollars. The Vikramaditya is currently being retooled at Sevmash, a Russian shipbuilding company based in Severodvinsk, a port city on Russia's White Sea, although Indian pilots are already getting a feel for the new fighter jets, whether in flight simulators, factory slipways or in the cockpits of the first freshly delivered fighter jets. Delhi has also announced that, in addition to the aforementioned set of aircraft, it plans on purchasing two dozen more of the same model. HAL, in cooperation with Sukhoi, is currently working on a 5th-generation fighter jet that is almost a carbon copy of the Russian T-50, granted, India's will have a dual cockpit, as opposed to Russia's single-cockpit model. It is reported that India is prepared to acquire more than 250 of these airplanes for its own needs, while it will then switch over to manufacturing them for itself and for third-party countries. The joint production of this new fighter jet is estimated to run $8-10 billion, while those putting in orders will shovel out at least 85-100m greenbacks.
A lot can be said about past and future projects that Russia and India have and will participate together in, and Zelin will obviously bring them up with his Indian colleagues. But it looks like that is not all that he will touch on with them.
India's air force is currently holding a tender for supplying it with 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). Russia is taking part in the tender with its versatile MiG-35, complete with a variable thrust vector and other worthy features. Competing alongside Russia in the tender are America's Boeing-manufactured F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin-produced F-16 Fighting Falcon, France's Dassault Aviation-produced Rafale and JAS-39 Gripen manufactured at Sweden's SAAB, while the Eurofighter Typhoon EF-200 is being put forward together by an all-European squad of Great Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain. Tests on the competing models are already being carried out at local air bases in some of the toughest air-combat simulations around, created with the help of remote-control equipment and other mock enemy aircraft. Local media are following the tests closely and at times leak news to the public that really make Indian experts scratch their heads.
For instance, the media reported that the French and European models made it to the final round, while Russia's MiG-35 was cut because the Indian air force leadership regarded its engine as being insufficient. Although India's air force commander has denied these reports as being inaccurate, three-star general Zelin and his subordinate, commander Gradusov, will almost certainly have to invest a lot of time and effort to convince their Indian counterparts that Russia's MiG-35 is still the best in show. Will they be able to pull it off? Only time will tell. But whatever the case, the $11 billion promised to the winner of the tender is enough case in point for Russia's high command to, from time to time, take on the role of door-to-door salesman.
http://indrus.in/articles/2010/09/09/zelin_lobbies_russian_fighter_jet04684.html
vikramrana_1812
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MiG-35 may not fly to India
European models – Rafale built by the French firm of Dassault and the Eurofighter Typhoon designed by the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) – are frontrunners to win the Indian tender for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) to beef up the country's air force, India's TV channel Times Now reported, quoting unnamed sources. The report stressed that Russian, American and Swedish planes did not make it into the final following extensive field trials. Allegedly, the engines of Russia's 4th++ generation fighter MiG-35 failed to impress, while Sweden's Gripen (SAAB) fell off the Indian radar, and the F16 designed by US Lockheed Martin was pronounced to have "no future". As for Boeing's F18 Super Hornet, no reason was given for its rejection.
Russia's United Aircraft Corporation did not confirm this report.
"The official results of the tender have not yet been announced," UAC spokesman Konstantin Lantratov told Kommersant, refusing to elaborate on unconfirmed TV reports. "MiG-35 is not withdrawing from the tender, I have no formal notices about this," Mikhail Pogosyan, OAC first vice president and head of RAC MiG, told Kommersant yesterday. On Saturday, when Times Now reported the preliminary tender results, they had not yet been drawn up, the newspaper reported, citing a source close to RAC MiG. "Envelopes with commercial proposals will only be opened by the commission this week," the source told Kommersant, noting that the MiG-35 trials had been completed back in the autumn of last year.
At the same time, the newspaper quoted a number of other sources, speaking of MiG's objective problems connected to poor project financing, the Indian Air Force being the only potential buyer. According to the newspaper's source close to Russia's state arms exporter Rosoboronexport, the need to allocate additional state funds for the MiG-35 project was outlined by OAC President Alexey Fyodorov in 2008, yet the problem has not yet been solved. As Fyodorov pointed out, one of the key tasks is to rework the RD-33MK engine for MiG-35. "The engine must have an overhaul period of 2,000 hours, with its general resource of 4,000 hours, but the engine falls short of these indicators currently," the source said, refusing to specify the RD-33MK's current overhaul period.
According to the Kommersant's source in the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission, reports of Russia's withdrawal from the tender appeared ahead of the commission's next meeting scheduled for 30 August. He did not rule out that in this way, Delhi encourages Russia to improve its bid.
The main advantage of the Russian proposal is that MiG-35 is the cheapest aircraft in the tender. The costliest one, Rafale, is worth some €60m ($79.5m), estimated Konstantin Makiyenko, expert at the Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, while MiG-35 costs slightly over $40m. "Clearly, the ratio of fighters' combat capabilities to price will be one of the key criteria for the government's decision," confirmed Oleg Panteleyev, chief analyst at Aviaport agency. MiG-35's another strong point is the long tradition of Russian-Indian military cooperation, he added: "The licence production of MiG aircraft was launched in India in the post-Soviet period, and a contract was signed for MiG-29K carrier borne aircraft." Yet, Makiyenko does not exclude that India could revise the terms of the tender in the end: "it would be logical to revise the tender for 5th generation aircraft" as the Indian Air Force expects to use the fighters for at least 50 years.
http://indrus.in/articles/2010/08/16/mig35_may_not_fly_to_india04608.html
European models – Rafale built by the French firm of Dassault and the Eurofighter Typhoon designed by the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) – are frontrunners to win the Indian tender for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) to beef up the country's air force, India's TV channel Times Now reported, quoting unnamed sources. The report stressed that Russian, American and Swedish planes did not make it into the final following extensive field trials. Allegedly, the engines of Russia's 4th++ generation fighter MiG-35 failed to impress, while Sweden's Gripen (SAAB) fell off the Indian radar, and the F16 designed by US Lockheed Martin was pronounced to have "no future". As for Boeing's F18 Super Hornet, no reason was given for its rejection.
Russia's United Aircraft Corporation did not confirm this report.
"The official results of the tender have not yet been announced," UAC spokesman Konstantin Lantratov told Kommersant, refusing to elaborate on unconfirmed TV reports. "MiG-35 is not withdrawing from the tender, I have no formal notices about this," Mikhail Pogosyan, OAC first vice president and head of RAC MiG, told Kommersant yesterday. On Saturday, when Times Now reported the preliminary tender results, they had not yet been drawn up, the newspaper reported, citing a source close to RAC MiG. "Envelopes with commercial proposals will only be opened by the commission this week," the source told Kommersant, noting that the MiG-35 trials had been completed back in the autumn of last year.
At the same time, the newspaper quoted a number of other sources, speaking of MiG's objective problems connected to poor project financing, the Indian Air Force being the only potential buyer. According to the newspaper's source close to Russia's state arms exporter Rosoboronexport, the need to allocate additional state funds for the MiG-35 project was outlined by OAC President Alexey Fyodorov in 2008, yet the problem has not yet been solved. As Fyodorov pointed out, one of the key tasks is to rework the RD-33MK engine for MiG-35. "The engine must have an overhaul period of 2,000 hours, with its general resource of 4,000 hours, but the engine falls short of these indicators currently," the source said, refusing to specify the RD-33MK's current overhaul period.
According to the Kommersant's source in the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission, reports of Russia's withdrawal from the tender appeared ahead of the commission's next meeting scheduled for 30 August. He did not rule out that in this way, Delhi encourages Russia to improve its bid.
The main advantage of the Russian proposal is that MiG-35 is the cheapest aircraft in the tender. The costliest one, Rafale, is worth some €60m ($79.5m), estimated Konstantin Makiyenko, expert at the Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, while MiG-35 costs slightly over $40m. "Clearly, the ratio of fighters' combat capabilities to price will be one of the key criteria for the government's decision," confirmed Oleg Panteleyev, chief analyst at Aviaport agency. MiG-35's another strong point is the long tradition of Russian-Indian military cooperation, he added: "The licence production of MiG aircraft was launched in India in the post-Soviet period, and a contract was signed for MiG-29K carrier borne aircraft." Yet, Makiyenko does not exclude that India could revise the terms of the tender in the end: "it would be logical to revise the tender for 5th generation aircraft" as the Indian Air Force expects to use the fighters for at least 50 years.
http://indrus.in/articles/2010/08/16/mig35_may_not_fly_to_india04608.html
thakur_ritesh
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Well geo-politics reigns supreme in such decisions and the decision to be taken can run contrary to the wish of the armed forces on which hardware to be bought. If purchase of Su30MKI and jaguar were political and contrary to the wish of the IAF so will the decision of mmrca be, I don't have a doubt about that and no one gets us better political millage than the Americans and to a lesser extent the European consortium.
If that is the consideration of the GoI (which I am speculating) then we would be left with the 2 american jets and EFT.
EFT is too expensive but is considered a near 5G jet but then its not a 5G jet anyways, has limited air to ground weapon suite, doesn't have a workable AESA as of date, further falls short on other various counts.
That leaves us with either f16 or f18. Popular belief and in accordance to the belief I have had so far is we would go for f18, quite likely since we have already done significant purchase from the boeing, but then f16 need not be written off. We have a working relationship with LM, the f16 IN we will get will be the best ever made and that possibly leaves us with the real catch, the f35. I am saying that because post 2020 I really doubt IAF will induct anymore 4/4.5G jets, all such induction would be only up till 2020 and not beyond and 200 f18s or some other aircraft clearly leaves room for that induction to happen right up till 2030 and on similar lines I expect IAF to induct LCAs to the tune of around 100-150 and not beyond since post 2020 the focus would be on pakfa/fgfa, ngfa/amca and quite possible f35.
I am coming to think of 126 f16s as a real possibility something that has been written off so far.
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Some Eye Candy..
EF-2000
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Even after a very long and grueling discussion Indian MRCA contest is still as unclear as it was in the day one. But personally i dont think it will be that difficult to guess the best choice if we dont take too many redundant factors into consideration to just complicate the puzzle. Here i will try to put forward a reasoning chain possibly shortest of its kind ...lolz.
This MRCA competition has to distinct compartments in it viz. I. strategic II. diplomatic. Before we proceed further into detail lets discuss about the real objective of Indian airforce to fish for an MRCA in the first place. As far as my knowledge & information goes i have boiled down to these few points as mentioned below.
1. Pakistan: Not likely to field 5 th gen fighter for a long time to come. Certainly got their best possible fighter in the form of F - 16 blk 52 as when comes to overall capability including advanced electronics & AAMs J10s are highly unlikely to match F-16 blk52. By looking at their financial condition & US presence & dictate lurking over their head rafael & typhoon looks extremely distant possibility. [Even possibility of technology smuggling by china will keep france and European consortium at bay].
IAF NEED: So IAF needs a fighter to stay ahead of f - 16 blk 52 in every aspect, mostly in avionics ( mostly in radar, jam proof data link , unique IR seeker specially designed for growlers )
2. CHINA: A. BEST multirole jet Su 30mkm. Optimized for groud attack. In A2A section well match & certainly dominated by Su 30mki with much better avionics & A2A.
A1. J11a/b/c ...chinese copy of Su 27.Sensitive specs are unknown but its obvious from chinese interest in israeli electronics that they cant match Su 30 mki in its current form or with further upgradation
B. J10, Ajet with some what better and proven features than LCA tejas.Though has potential to challenge F 16 export versions commercially but very unlikely to extend this challenge in a real air battle due to lack of top notch avionics & weapons. Looking at the amount of money and endeavor that has gone into j 10 project its unlikely to be a jf 17 like project and will certainly be built in numbers to replace a large number of very old chinese jets.
C. Though pitch is high.Rhetoric is very regularly its just impossible that china can come up with a true 5th gen figheter.So any MLU of the existing 4 to 4.5 gen jets with 5 th avionics looks a distant possibility.
Reasons behind this assumption: 1. Yet to built a credible engine for its jets. So super cruise capability is very distant. Also lack in experience will make it a very difficult job to design an airframe which approves super cruise.2. Yet to achieve true 4 to 4.5 gen avionics including AESA so 5th gen electronics will be just too much fancy and demand from chinese at this point in time and situation is not going to change anytime soon as avionics is possibly the most guarded knowledge even surpassing nukes.
3. Even Russia hasnt yet mastered the above mentioned techs so any possibility of china getting a ToT is ruled out.
IAF NEEDS: IAF needs a jet that can surpass the A2G capability of Su 30 mkm & J 11 variants.Which can stay way ahead in terms of avionics compared to all the existing chinese jets and that may get inducted in foreseeable future( about 10 years atleast).Though russian PESAs clain to have similiar performance but by the very nature of technology used in these two different radars, PESAs are bound to be lacking the extremely high attenuation of AESA type.So a genuine & proven AESA will still have some distinct advantages over its sino russian radars even in its export configuration. AESA being a very well guarded tech with little proliferation at a really implementable level makes it an element of great danger and surprise.So IAF selected jet should have a proven AESA to scare chinese jets.
Comparisons of participating jets in the MRCA contest
ONLY TECHNICAL ASPECTS)
1. MIG 31: Too little too late. Absolutely nothing new to offer which can scare china.Has lots of similarity with some of the existing chinese jets & this will make them feel comfortable.
2. Rafael: A fantastic fighter. Possibly a good A2G force as well but not sure to out perform Su 30 MKM.Avionics are superb and proven except one but most important aspect i.e proven AESA.some stealth features included .With excellent engine & tremendous weapons at a very high cost. Though got some over kill in some corners but lack some vital and decisive scarecrow features to keep chinese at bay.
3. Typhoon: just too unproven.Lots of experimental tech validation.Involving countries getting financially weaken.Avionics top notch but have a lot of unproven gadgets.No proven AESA.
4. Grippen: a little champ. elder brother of tejas. A target for our Tejas mk ii designing team. but certainly not something that you buy to scare an opponent like china.
5. F18 SH: old platform.marine version.regularly participating in exercises picking up from land.Exceptionally good & proven avionics.With only proven AESA in the world.A superb IRST recently included,which was initially denied to india but india fighting out very hard for it.with best A2G( mainly stand off weapons) & A2A weapons.except F 15E no other 4 to 4.5 gen US jet has been so thoroughly tinkered to add some kind of stealth.Being inducted in large numbers by US navy So at least for 20 to 25 years there should be no technical issues regarding supply chain.What ever might be the claim by so called self proclaimed experts of different defence forum and non techical journalists the very fact tht US navy is inducting this jet in big numbers shows that it still has the potential to stay relevant with future up gradation for at least 2 DECADES to come.What can stay relevant for USA for 2025yrs can certainly do so for india for 30 yrs at least.
Conclusion: On technologically proven parameters SH should come on top among these fighters.The price will be yet another plus point for the same jet.When rest of the countries are promising certain techs to be developed in few years USA has already mass producing them for the last 1 decade.USA also has the most advanced and elaborate R&D infra as compared to any other nation on the planet so the immediate future of this fighter regarding MLU is no less bright.
ECONOMIC & GEOPOLITICAL ANALYSIS OF MRCA RUN IN THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE: We like to state it clearly or not at this moment china is the largest threat to India with pakistan playing shikhandi for it.So when come to overall need and perspective of GOI is would not vary much from what IAF thinks...simply scare china of an embarassment and keep their aspirations under control. Now lets list down Which are the nations that has the capability to form an ally with India to really intimidate china.If we go technologically they would look like this
1. USA 2. RUSSIA !! 3. FRANCE ? 4. UK ?. I think no one is this forum will believe that france & uk can scare china any more & they especially Uk is too absorbed with its own economic issues.So who will India ally in this new age? Russia is not even a shadow of its past when it comes to diplomatic dominance in the world.slowly and surely squandering away all the little technological edge that it had to china.Very poor management.Ever weakening economy.Russia is paying the price for its failure to convert its immense technical know how into true all pervading industrialization.So there is nothing to learn from them so far as economy is concerned. Situation will only degrade for them in the coming years.Here India is facing a far bigger and very powerful nation on over all international position that is china.No little bit of jet buying or ToT from France can keep them under control & we must realize that.Chinese have already marched well ahead of us and due to their inhuman hyper strict regulations are expected to out perform india for at least 2 more decades and after that china will slowdown and crumble by paying the price for its misdeeds but till then we will have to face them & trust me it will be no easy job.They are preparing for something nasty as all recent indications show. Those 60 billion $ trade and bla bla theory will never work.They are not that matured in long term power clinching. All chinese want is the no 1 slot and replace USA ASAP.With the recent diplomatic moves like making ties with south korea & vietnam india has taken the anti to a completely different level.This will seriously challenge the dominance of china in the south aisia. At present this tit for tat might go down very well for the domestic consumption but remember china will never sit and watch. Even a little 2 week long intense skirmish can be suicidal for India at this moment. Preventing a war with much bigger enemy is always much more important that winning it. No other nation except USA not even russia and prevent a war if the situation arises. It can certainly assist india in giving a befitting reply to chinese forces which will be even worse than loosing a small battle and loosing a few thousand sq km of inhospitable land.If china launches a small but well organized blitzkrieg and india manages to surprise them and thwart them back, present day china will never digest it and the following days will only see hundreds of chinese ballistic & cruise missiles creating havoc to our economy.Pakistan will also not miss the golden opportunity to join the party.I again repeat, in the present scenario India needs to prevent war more than winning it to really grow herself upto the level from where it can dictate the terms in the world stage. Indians have some reservations regarding US owing to its hostile attitude in the past. We say they are often too conservative when comes to sharing high end tech. Yes they are and that why till now they have been able to maintain their supremacy in the world rather than russia which squandered away its edge and created a inhumane rogue nation in disguise. Any sane person would certainly agree that a world with US on top is by far better than a world with undisputed superpower as china or russia. US actions might have antagonized many in the past and present but let me assure you that if the same world was under a complete dominance of any other known top nation situayion would have been far far worse. We have seen UK, we have seen germany. As far as i understand US has been the most tacit and sophisticated in its approach toward holding its supremacy. If we call the present world is under US hegemony then in their absence russians & chinese can make it a world of vandals. Comming to india specific case during 71 USA did send its AC to prevent further indian action and we are still languishing with that pain. People often should and suggest we should learn from china but are we really. Look at them. Russia probably has caused more direct deaths to chiinese forces that what US did to India ( there has been none). They fought serious battles causing hundreds of chinese soldiers biting dust. There was a time when Russia sent a direct threat to pulverize china with massive nuke strike & guess who saved china ? again it was US counter threat of a similar type to russia. I think in the absence of US world would have seen far more blood and vandalism. I am no pro us campaigner , for that matter i just dont care about any other nation but India.I think till now USA has shown us a great and best way to become & stay super power for a long time in all spheres with real little military force. People will certainly raise the case of iraq but then an explation to that will be beyond the scope and motivation of this writing but what we see happening at present in the next door did began with it. Yes they made many mistakes they were not perfect either and that's obvious. Time has come for us to learn the super power techniques and management skills from the best. Scope for improvements were always been there and will always be there as well.Dont think India as the undisputed super power will do anything better with current state of psychology. A nation where most of the politicians are corrupted,government employees are deeply into corruption is not expect to become pious over night as soon as it becomes super power. We need to learn & train our mind to think and act like a big power.Look for long term benefits rather than short term solutions.False nationalistic ego should be outright stripped off. when i was too young you pinched in my butt once so now i cannot shake hand with you as u might bite this time....come on learn from china , just do what they are doing to russia. USA is not in very good shape either, their economy is down. Indians dont challenge them from underwear to elephant like china.Yes some clashes have began to build up but that will be mostly at a higher end like IT out sourcing etc. There is huge amount of non critical technology that USA can provide us which can do wonder for our economic front. Apart from a nuke testing there is no other possible scenario where US can put sanctions on India and if the very war can be kept at bay with economic & diplomatic maneuvers with the backing of USA there is absolutely no need to conduct one untill India stands on her own feet. If we work hard it should not take more than 2 dacades. Talk less, make less rhetoric, be assertive when ever needed and be focused & handle USA with care will take us where we want to be. Pakistan is one issue that can spoil indo us relationship as well and may even trigger nuclear over hang.To fizzle out pakistan all we do is to make sure no terror attack must take place in the scale of 26/11 or parliament attack for another 10 years at least and let them die their natural death smothered by their own moves.
Conclusion: From both technological and diplomatic ground F 18 Sh seems to be the best choice for indians at this moment. Yes we do loose some space to maneuver but it dose provide us with the vital X factor to our over all security. JAI HIND
This MRCA competition has to distinct compartments in it viz. I. strategic II. diplomatic. Before we proceed further into detail lets discuss about the real objective of Indian airforce to fish for an MRCA in the first place. As far as my knowledge & information goes i have boiled down to these few points as mentioned below.
1. Pakistan: Not likely to field 5 th gen fighter for a long time to come. Certainly got their best possible fighter in the form of F - 16 blk 52 as when comes to overall capability including advanced electronics & AAMs J10s are highly unlikely to match F-16 blk52. By looking at their financial condition & US presence & dictate lurking over their head rafael & typhoon looks extremely distant possibility. [Even possibility of technology smuggling by china will keep france and European consortium at bay].
IAF NEED: So IAF needs a fighter to stay ahead of f - 16 blk 52 in every aspect, mostly in avionics ( mostly in radar, jam proof data link , unique IR seeker specially designed for growlers )
2. CHINA: A. BEST multirole jet Su 30mkm. Optimized for groud attack. In A2A section well match & certainly dominated by Su 30mki with much better avionics & A2A.
A1. J11a/b/c ...chinese copy of Su 27.Sensitive specs are unknown but its obvious from chinese interest in israeli electronics that they cant match Su 30 mki in its current form or with further upgradation
B. J10, Ajet with some what better and proven features than LCA tejas.Though has potential to challenge F 16 export versions commercially but very unlikely to extend this challenge in a real air battle due to lack of top notch avionics & weapons. Looking at the amount of money and endeavor that has gone into j 10 project its unlikely to be a jf 17 like project and will certainly be built in numbers to replace a large number of very old chinese jets.
C. Though pitch is high.Rhetoric is very regularly its just impossible that china can come up with a true 5th gen figheter.So any MLU of the existing 4 to 4.5 gen jets with 5 th avionics looks a distant possibility.
Reasons behind this assumption: 1. Yet to built a credible engine for its jets. So super cruise capability is very distant. Also lack in experience will make it a very difficult job to design an airframe which approves super cruise.2. Yet to achieve true 4 to 4.5 gen avionics including AESA so 5th gen electronics will be just too much fancy and demand from chinese at this point in time and situation is not going to change anytime soon as avionics is possibly the most guarded knowledge even surpassing nukes.
3. Even Russia hasnt yet mastered the above mentioned techs so any possibility of china getting a ToT is ruled out.
IAF NEEDS: IAF needs a jet that can surpass the A2G capability of Su 30 mkm & J 11 variants.Which can stay way ahead in terms of avionics compared to all the existing chinese jets and that may get inducted in foreseeable future( about 10 years atleast).Though russian PESAs clain to have similiar performance but by the very nature of technology used in these two different radars, PESAs are bound to be lacking the extremely high attenuation of AESA type.So a genuine & proven AESA will still have some distinct advantages over its sino russian radars even in its export configuration. AESA being a very well guarded tech with little proliferation at a really implementable level makes it an element of great danger and surprise.So IAF selected jet should have a proven AESA to scare chinese jets.
Comparisons of participating jets in the MRCA contest
ONLY TECHNICAL ASPECTS)1. MIG 31: Too little too late. Absolutely nothing new to offer which can scare china.Has lots of similarity with some of the existing chinese jets & this will make them feel comfortable.
2. Rafael: A fantastic fighter. Possibly a good A2G force as well but not sure to out perform Su 30 MKM.Avionics are superb and proven except one but most important aspect i.e proven AESA.some stealth features included .With excellent engine & tremendous weapons at a very high cost. Though got some over kill in some corners but lack some vital and decisive scarecrow features to keep chinese at bay.
3. Typhoon: just too unproven.Lots of experimental tech validation.Involving countries getting financially weaken.Avionics top notch but have a lot of unproven gadgets.No proven AESA.
4. Grippen: a little champ. elder brother of tejas. A target for our Tejas mk ii designing team. but certainly not something that you buy to scare an opponent like china.
5. F18 SH: old platform.marine version.regularly participating in exercises picking up from land.Exceptionally good & proven avionics.With only proven AESA in the world.A superb IRST recently included,which was initially denied to india but india fighting out very hard for it.with best A2G( mainly stand off weapons) & A2A weapons.except F 15E no other 4 to 4.5 gen US jet has been so thoroughly tinkered to add some kind of stealth.Being inducted in large numbers by US navy So at least for 20 to 25 years there should be no technical issues regarding supply chain.What ever might be the claim by so called self proclaimed experts of different defence forum and non techical journalists the very fact tht US navy is inducting this jet in big numbers shows that it still has the potential to stay relevant with future up gradation for at least 2 DECADES to come.What can stay relevant for USA for 2025yrs can certainly do so for india for 30 yrs at least.
Conclusion: On technologically proven parameters SH should come on top among these fighters.The price will be yet another plus point for the same jet.When rest of the countries are promising certain techs to be developed in few years USA has already mass producing them for the last 1 decade.USA also has the most advanced and elaborate R&D infra as compared to any other nation on the planet so the immediate future of this fighter regarding MLU is no less bright.
ECONOMIC & GEOPOLITICAL ANALYSIS OF MRCA RUN IN THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE: We like to state it clearly or not at this moment china is the largest threat to India with pakistan playing shikhandi for it.So when come to overall need and perspective of GOI is would not vary much from what IAF thinks...simply scare china of an embarassment and keep their aspirations under control. Now lets list down Which are the nations that has the capability to form an ally with India to really intimidate china.If we go technologically they would look like this
1. USA 2. RUSSIA !! 3. FRANCE ? 4. UK ?. I think no one is this forum will believe that france & uk can scare china any more & they especially Uk is too absorbed with its own economic issues.So who will India ally in this new age? Russia is not even a shadow of its past when it comes to diplomatic dominance in the world.slowly and surely squandering away all the little technological edge that it had to china.Very poor management.Ever weakening economy.Russia is paying the price for its failure to convert its immense technical know how into true all pervading industrialization.So there is nothing to learn from them so far as economy is concerned. Situation will only degrade for them in the coming years.Here India is facing a far bigger and very powerful nation on over all international position that is china.No little bit of jet buying or ToT from France can keep them under control & we must realize that.Chinese have already marched well ahead of us and due to their inhuman hyper strict regulations are expected to out perform india for at least 2 more decades and after that china will slowdown and crumble by paying the price for its misdeeds but till then we will have to face them & trust me it will be no easy job.They are preparing for something nasty as all recent indications show. Those 60 billion $ trade and bla bla theory will never work.They are not that matured in long term power clinching. All chinese want is the no 1 slot and replace USA ASAP.With the recent diplomatic moves like making ties with south korea & vietnam india has taken the anti to a completely different level.This will seriously challenge the dominance of china in the south aisia. At present this tit for tat might go down very well for the domestic consumption but remember china will never sit and watch. Even a little 2 week long intense skirmish can be suicidal for India at this moment. Preventing a war with much bigger enemy is always much more important that winning it. No other nation except USA not even russia and prevent a war if the situation arises. It can certainly assist india in giving a befitting reply to chinese forces which will be even worse than loosing a small battle and loosing a few thousand sq km of inhospitable land.If china launches a small but well organized blitzkrieg and india manages to surprise them and thwart them back, present day china will never digest it and the following days will only see hundreds of chinese ballistic & cruise missiles creating havoc to our economy.Pakistan will also not miss the golden opportunity to join the party.I again repeat, in the present scenario India needs to prevent war more than winning it to really grow herself upto the level from where it can dictate the terms in the world stage. Indians have some reservations regarding US owing to its hostile attitude in the past. We say they are often too conservative when comes to sharing high end tech. Yes they are and that why till now they have been able to maintain their supremacy in the world rather than russia which squandered away its edge and created a inhumane rogue nation in disguise. Any sane person would certainly agree that a world with US on top is by far better than a world with undisputed superpower as china or russia. US actions might have antagonized many in the past and present but let me assure you that if the same world was under a complete dominance of any other known top nation situayion would have been far far worse. We have seen UK, we have seen germany. As far as i understand US has been the most tacit and sophisticated in its approach toward holding its supremacy. If we call the present world is under US hegemony then in their absence russians & chinese can make it a world of vandals. Comming to india specific case during 71 USA did send its AC to prevent further indian action and we are still languishing with that pain. People often should and suggest we should learn from china but are we really. Look at them. Russia probably has caused more direct deaths to chiinese forces that what US did to India ( there has been none). They fought serious battles causing hundreds of chinese soldiers biting dust. There was a time when Russia sent a direct threat to pulverize china with massive nuke strike & guess who saved china ? again it was US counter threat of a similar type to russia. I think in the absence of US world would have seen far more blood and vandalism. I am no pro us campaigner , for that matter i just dont care about any other nation but India.I think till now USA has shown us a great and best way to become & stay super power for a long time in all spheres with real little military force. People will certainly raise the case of iraq but then an explation to that will be beyond the scope and motivation of this writing but what we see happening at present in the next door did began with it. Yes they made many mistakes they were not perfect either and that's obvious. Time has come for us to learn the super power techniques and management skills from the best. Scope for improvements were always been there and will always be there as well.Dont think India as the undisputed super power will do anything better with current state of psychology. A nation where most of the politicians are corrupted,government employees are deeply into corruption is not expect to become pious over night as soon as it becomes super power. We need to learn & train our mind to think and act like a big power.Look for long term benefits rather than short term solutions.False nationalistic ego should be outright stripped off. when i was too young you pinched in my butt once so now i cannot shake hand with you as u might bite this time....come on learn from china , just do what they are doing to russia. USA is not in very good shape either, their economy is down. Indians dont challenge them from underwear to elephant like china.Yes some clashes have began to build up but that will be mostly at a higher end like IT out sourcing etc. There is huge amount of non critical technology that USA can provide us which can do wonder for our economic front. Apart from a nuke testing there is no other possible scenario where US can put sanctions on India and if the very war can be kept at bay with economic & diplomatic maneuvers with the backing of USA there is absolutely no need to conduct one untill India stands on her own feet. If we work hard it should not take more than 2 dacades. Talk less, make less rhetoric, be assertive when ever needed and be focused & handle USA with care will take us where we want to be. Pakistan is one issue that can spoil indo us relationship as well and may even trigger nuclear over hang.To fizzle out pakistan all we do is to make sure no terror attack must take place in the scale of 26/11 or parliament attack for another 10 years at least and let them die their natural death smothered by their own moves.
Conclusion: From both technological and diplomatic ground F 18 Sh seems to be the best choice for indians at this moment. Yes we do loose some space to maneuver but it dose provide us with the vital X factor to our over all security. JAI HIND
gogbot
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Making Light of PAF is one thing.
But We should not really be so conceited with regards to PLAAF.
For starters it is much larger than the IAF. What ever you may say Quantitative disparity still exists.
Neither is our Induction rate faster then theirs , we are trying to go faster just to keep.
And to be fair the Chinese Budget is more than 2 times larger.
and really we should not underestimate Chines Technology. It is improving and growing more complex.
The Chinese have Already Fielded their Early AESA designs , Already have an Working AWACS.
They Have been building engines for a long time , And already field testing their latest models on the actual aircraft.
Suffice to say they are much further ahead than India.
Will the Chinese have 5th gen fighters , Yes most definitely in the Next 1 or 2 decades it will happen.
If not sooner.
Conclusion: IAF has attain and then Maintain Technological edge to , to counter Balance PLAAF's quantitative edge.
But the Chinese always will have a larger budget then us , for a long time to come.
Really we have to get used to the Notion that IAF is the top dog in the sky.
India may never gain the Edge in the air force. But we can also ensure China never gains an edge either
Making Light of PAF is one thing.
But We should not really be so conceited with regards to PLAAF.
For starters it is much larger than the IAF. What ever you may say Quantitative disparity still exists.
Neither is our Induction rate faster then theirs , we are trying to go faster just to keep.
And to be fair the Chinese Budget is more than 2 times larger.
and really we should not underestimate Chines Technology. It is improving and growing more complex.
The Chinese have Already Fielded their Early AESA designs , Already have an Working AWACS.
They Have been building engines for a long time , And already field testing their latest models on the actual aircraft.
Suffice to say they are much further ahead than India.
Will the Chinese have 5th gen fighters , Yes most definitely in the Next 1 or 2 decades it will happen.
If not sooner.
Conclusion: IAF has attain and then Maintain Technological edge to , to counter Balance PLAAF's quantitative edge.
But the Chinese always will have a larger budget then us , for a long time to come.
Really we have to get used to the Notion that IAF is the top dog in the sky.
India may never gain the Edge in the air force. But we can also ensure China never gains an edge either
chex3009
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Blade that was excellent analysis on your part. The F/A-18 SH surely brings some more advantages than only just itself. I would love Rafale to be flown in Indian colors but that would have no leverage on the chinese on both hardware front and the political front. I would pay India rich dividends by going for American F/A-18 SH much more than just the hardware itself. India should be asserrtive no doubt but there's a hard feeling coming to me that India is gonna go for the Super Hornets and the Chinese and Pakistanis (with chinese support obviously) will leave no leaf unturned during these 15 years i.e 2010 to 2025 to destabilize India as much as they could, even China will be showing their assertiveness so much that they could bring us close to war. These are some very hard feelings.
But anyways thumbs up of both F/A-18 SH or Dassault Rafales....!
Testing Decade for India ahead.
But anyways thumbs up of both F/A-18 SH or Dassault Rafales....!
Testing Decade for India ahead.
neo29
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Ajai Shukla: Scrap the MMRCA, buy US F-35s
Given the global buzz around the Indian Air Force (IAF) ongoing $10-billion procurement of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), my suggestion to scrap the process and, instead, go in for a straight buy of Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightening II fighters is admittedly radical. But consider this: when the F-35 enters service, a couple of years from now, it will comfortably outclass every one of the six fighters that the IAF is currently evaluating. Thereafter, through the entire 30-40 year service life of the selected MMRCA, the IAF will fly a second-rung fighter when it could have gotten the best.
The six fighters that the IAF has flight-tested over the last year Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper; Dassault Rafale; the Russian MiG-35; the Swedish Saab Gripen NG; and the Eurofighter are categorised, even by their manufacturers, as Fourth Generation fighters. In contrast, the F-35 is globally acknowledged as a Fifth Generation fighter. The key to its superiority is stealth, making it effectively invisible to radar at longer ranges. This is a battle-winning advantage in aerial combat, where radars are the only way of "seeing" the enemy; the F-35 will detect enemy fighters and launch missiles at them, well before being detected. While attacking ground targets in enemy territory, the F-35 will remain undetected until it is too late to react. Unsurprisingly, each Fifth Generation fighter is the battlefield equivalent of three-four previous generation aircraft.
Since the IAF knows all this, why is the F-35 not in the MMRCA contest? Because, while framing the specifications for the 126-fighter tender in 2003, the IAF set the bar so low that the F-35 was overqualified. The Ministry of Defence (MoD), still nursing a hangover from the Tehelka sting expose, wanted to avoid potential controversy by having several vendors competing for the MMRCA order. Had the IAF been allowed to keep the long-term in mind, and to demand Fifth Generation capabilities, only the F-35 would have met the tender requirement. With that single-vendor situation an MoD bugaboo, the IAF' specifications were dumbed down to bring in a clutch of Fourth Generation fighters.
When Lockheed Martin one of the four vendors that received inquiries from the IAF in 2003-04 studied the requirement, it offered the F-16 Super Viper, which it estimated met India’s requirements. Offering the overqualified, and pricier, F-35 made little business sense: India procurement rules give no credit for exceeding the tender requirements. The Defence Procurement Procedure mandates that the cheapest of the vendors that meets the technical requirements automatically wins a contract.
Price was just one reason for offering the F-16. With the F-35 prototype not even having flown then (it first flew in 2006), Lockheed Martin knew that the F-35 would not be available for flight-testing in the time frame that the IAF wanted. Senior IAF officers believe that Lockheed Martin made a strategic decision: to field the F-16 in the MMRCA competition; and later offer the F-35 as a Fifth Generation fighter, a logical follow-on to the F-16. But that offer (which officials confirm was made to the IAF later) was a non-starter: India had decided to partner Russia in jointly developing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).
Today, much has changed. The F-35 programme has moved into its production phase and will be flying operationally soon. Senior Lockheed Martin officials confirm that the US is more than keen to sell India the F-35. Meanwhile, a more confident MoD has demonstrated â€" through its single-vendor purchases of the C-130J Super Hercules and C-17 Globemaster III transport aircraft â€" that it has the political courage to buy American systems when they clearly outclass the competition.
Senior IAF officers, serving and retired, make two arguments against the F-35. Accepting that the F-35 far outclasses the other MMRCA contenders, they apprehend that scrapping the MMRCA purchase risks losing several years that the MoD will surely take for fresh evaluations and financial sanctions for buying the F-35.
This logic does injustice to the MoD, which has demonstrated in the C-130J and C-17 procurements that it is capable of acting decisively. Having shed its post-Kargil, Pakistan-centric mindset, and focusing on building credible offensive-defence capabilities against China, surely the MoD will not spend $10 billion on fighters that will be outclassed with the inevitable appearance of Chinese Fifth Generation fighters over the Himalayas.
The other IAF concern is that, with the F-35 still under development, there is little clarity on when it will become available or on what terms. But the announcement last week of Israel purchase of 20 F-35s (with another 75 likely to follow) has dispelled much of the mist. Israel, which is not even one of the nine countries that funded the F-35 development, will be buying the fighters for $96 million each under the Foreign Military Sales programme, for not much more than the Rafale and Eurofighter estimated cost. Israel will get its F-35s between 2015 and 2017; several of the MMRCA contenders will need as long.
Significantly, defence analysts believe that Israel has obtained Washington’s okay to integrate a variety of Israeli sensors and weaponry onto the F-35. The US has long resisted this since it involves passing on software source codes to the Israelis. With an order of 126-200 fighters, India too could demand this important concession.
Given India deteriorating security environment, it must build a Fifth Generation air force, one that will remain the pre-eminent power in South Asia the next two decades. The Fifth Generation heavy fighter already in the works, in partnership with Russia, will only enter service towards the end of the decade. In the medium fighter segment, a Fifth Generation fighter is as essential, with strategic balance maintained by importing from the US. For obvious political reasons, the initiative to scrap the MMRCA and go in for the F-35 must come from the IAF; and the MoD must assure them of minimal delay.
http://idrw.org/?p=912
Given the global buzz around the Indian Air Force (IAF) ongoing $10-billion procurement of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), my suggestion to scrap the process and, instead, go in for a straight buy of Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightening II fighters is admittedly radical. But consider this: when the F-35 enters service, a couple of years from now, it will comfortably outclass every one of the six fighters that the IAF is currently evaluating. Thereafter, through the entire 30-40 year service life of the selected MMRCA, the IAF will fly a second-rung fighter when it could have gotten the best.
The six fighters that the IAF has flight-tested over the last year Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper; Dassault Rafale; the Russian MiG-35; the Swedish Saab Gripen NG; and the Eurofighter are categorised, even by their manufacturers, as Fourth Generation fighters. In contrast, the F-35 is globally acknowledged as a Fifth Generation fighter. The key to its superiority is stealth, making it effectively invisible to radar at longer ranges. This is a battle-winning advantage in aerial combat, where radars are the only way of "seeing" the enemy; the F-35 will detect enemy fighters and launch missiles at them, well before being detected. While attacking ground targets in enemy territory, the F-35 will remain undetected until it is too late to react. Unsurprisingly, each Fifth Generation fighter is the battlefield equivalent of three-four previous generation aircraft.
Since the IAF knows all this, why is the F-35 not in the MMRCA contest? Because, while framing the specifications for the 126-fighter tender in 2003, the IAF set the bar so low that the F-35 was overqualified. The Ministry of Defence (MoD), still nursing a hangover from the Tehelka sting expose, wanted to avoid potential controversy by having several vendors competing for the MMRCA order. Had the IAF been allowed to keep the long-term in mind, and to demand Fifth Generation capabilities, only the F-35 would have met the tender requirement. With that single-vendor situation an MoD bugaboo, the IAF' specifications were dumbed down to bring in a clutch of Fourth Generation fighters.
When Lockheed Martin one of the four vendors that received inquiries from the IAF in 2003-04 studied the requirement, it offered the F-16 Super Viper, which it estimated met India’s requirements. Offering the overqualified, and pricier, F-35 made little business sense: India procurement rules give no credit for exceeding the tender requirements. The Defence Procurement Procedure mandates that the cheapest of the vendors that meets the technical requirements automatically wins a contract.
Price was just one reason for offering the F-16. With the F-35 prototype not even having flown then (it first flew in 2006), Lockheed Martin knew that the F-35 would not be available for flight-testing in the time frame that the IAF wanted. Senior IAF officers believe that Lockheed Martin made a strategic decision: to field the F-16 in the MMRCA competition; and later offer the F-35 as a Fifth Generation fighter, a logical follow-on to the F-16. But that offer (which officials confirm was made to the IAF later) was a non-starter: India had decided to partner Russia in jointly developing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).
Today, much has changed. The F-35 programme has moved into its production phase and will be flying operationally soon. Senior Lockheed Martin officials confirm that the US is more than keen to sell India the F-35. Meanwhile, a more confident MoD has demonstrated â€" through its single-vendor purchases of the C-130J Super Hercules and C-17 Globemaster III transport aircraft â€" that it has the political courage to buy American systems when they clearly outclass the competition.
Senior IAF officers, serving and retired, make two arguments against the F-35. Accepting that the F-35 far outclasses the other MMRCA contenders, they apprehend that scrapping the MMRCA purchase risks losing several years that the MoD will surely take for fresh evaluations and financial sanctions for buying the F-35.
This logic does injustice to the MoD, which has demonstrated in the C-130J and C-17 procurements that it is capable of acting decisively. Having shed its post-Kargil, Pakistan-centric mindset, and focusing on building credible offensive-defence capabilities against China, surely the MoD will not spend $10 billion on fighters that will be outclassed with the inevitable appearance of Chinese Fifth Generation fighters over the Himalayas.
The other IAF concern is that, with the F-35 still under development, there is little clarity on when it will become available or on what terms. But the announcement last week of Israel purchase of 20 F-35s (with another 75 likely to follow) has dispelled much of the mist. Israel, which is not even one of the nine countries that funded the F-35 development, will be buying the fighters for $96 million each under the Foreign Military Sales programme, for not much more than the Rafale and Eurofighter estimated cost. Israel will get its F-35s between 2015 and 2017; several of the MMRCA contenders will need as long.
Significantly, defence analysts believe that Israel has obtained Washington’s okay to integrate a variety of Israeli sensors and weaponry onto the F-35. The US has long resisted this since it involves passing on software source codes to the Israelis. With an order of 126-200 fighters, India too could demand this important concession.
Given India deteriorating security environment, it must build a Fifth Generation air force, one that will remain the pre-eminent power in South Asia the next two decades. The Fifth Generation heavy fighter already in the works, in partnership with Russia, will only enter service towards the end of the decade. In the medium fighter segment, a Fifth Generation fighter is as essential, with strategic balance maintained by importing from the US. For obvious political reasons, the initiative to scrap the MMRCA and go in for the F-35 must come from the IAF; and the MoD must assure them of minimal delay.
http://idrw.org/?p=912
Agnostic_Indian
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Us weapons are prone to sanctions, euma, cismoa, etc. It surely will compromise our security. We always will have to be on their good books to keep the arms and supplys running. they offer little TOT Also. Imo india should go for US tech only if it is way ahead of what others can offer (like p8i).
if we look only typoon is better or close to our mki. I don't think iaf is looking for soothing better than mki they want soothing to complement mki and lca. I heard their first choice would be single engine fighter if it can match other spec requirements. F16 is unlikely to win because because pak got it. Hornet is similar weight class to mki and inferior to mki (except radar), basicaly naval fighter, older air frame,
russian got nothing new.
typoon too expensive,
my prediction is gripen or rafale but i am afraid because of politics hornet may win.
gripen got better chances. They use ge engine which got selected for lca. So we will give share of money to americans also(added 4more p8i and an old amphibious ship to please US)...we are less dependent on american other than engine.
if we look only typoon is better or close to our mki. I don't think iaf is looking for soothing better than mki they want soothing to complement mki and lca. I heard their first choice would be single engine fighter if it can match other spec requirements. F16 is unlikely to win because because pak got it. Hornet is similar weight class to mki and inferior to mki (except radar), basicaly naval fighter, older air frame,
russian got nothing new.
typoon too expensive,
my prediction is gripen or rafale but i am afraid because of politics hornet may win.
gripen got better chances. They use ge engine which got selected for lca. So we will give share of money to americans also(added 4more p8i and an old amphibious ship to please US)...we are less dependent on american other than engine.
Rahul Singh
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M-MRCA may not be that advanced and must be very costly but for IAF they are far better than F-35.
Firstly F-35 is a fighter not just a tactical or a heavy lifter and here ACM can't say we will manage without CISMOA which directly translates into compromising on tactical superiority. Risks of sanction is just another gem and will drastically affect preparedness of IAF. And we still not forget how half of PAF-F-16s were sitting dead during Kargil.
Secondly 126-200 will not be the figure IAF will buy if it chooses F-35. The final number will be anywhere close 350 and it means no looking back. To keep IAF a fighting force Bharat will have to continue bow down to American pressure. BTW today no body can predict for sure what will the final cost of jets delivered to us, i guess last example will cost nothing less than $200 million.
Thirdly. F-35 means no AMCA because IAF will not buy two jets in same class. Killing AMCA naturally means back to post-Marut - pre-LCA days meaning death of entire aeronautics industry. Question is, can we afford this situation again? I will say no. For IAF to remain a offensive-defensive force IAF will have to encourage indigenous assets there is no second way out.
anoop_mig25
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ye pakistan and china would try to destabilize India but i donot think buying `f-18 is answer for that because even if we bought it there is no grantee that wont try to destabilize. so better option is to invest in smart way defensive weapons which can guard our porous borders so that we can prevent any incursion in our border.And yes strong intelligence network
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