MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

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SATISH

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HUD symbology ALPHA or α means angle of attack.
See snapshot of the F/A-18 HUD display shows an AoA of 20.3,
it is an indication of maneuverability (pitch) nose pointing ability
especially useful in WVR.



An out of control falling leaf maneuver or "alpha hang-up" occurs due to
aggressive maneuvering and is a phenomenon experienced by F/A 18 pilots
since the AoA on the Hornet OR Super Hornet is not limited by the flight computer as is done
on other aircrafts such as the F-16, Rafale and MIG's.

The problem hasn't been encountered with the F/A 18 Super Hornet after extensive
design changes and testing involving a team of NASA scientists.

It is disappointing to see a member make jokes about an air crash just to score cheap points.:special20:
The aircraft in the HUD Snap shot looks like the F 22 raptor....
 

SATISH

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LAR means Launch Acceptability Region, "In LAR" means the Raptor is dead..
Yes DBC I know what LAR means....and The position of the raptor also says that it is already dead...the pilot in F 18 has to fire his missile to blow the raptor outta the sky. So I think this is from the F 18 Growler that had the F 22 kill I guess because the gun has been crossed out in the HUD...And I have a small doubt. Does the F 18 Growler carry a gun?
 

death.by.chocolate

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I guess because the gun has been crossed out in the HUD...And I have a small doubt. Does the F 18 Growler carry a gun?
Growler does not carry a gun,training sorties are 'weapons cold' GUNS 'crossed' means either no ammo or safety is on.
 
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SATISH

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So in the end F/A 18 E/F must be called as F 20....it is a totally different aircraft from the former F/A 18 c/d. Liars.....No wonder the F/A 20 nomenclature is missing.
 

luckyy

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Eurofighter-hour flight twice as expensive as expected

Additional anger could result in the Eurofighter. Additional anger could result in the Eurofighter. The operating costs for the aircraft are to SPIEGEL information significantly higher than expected: With the price is € 73 992 per flight hour,

What you guys think????
don't know about eurofighter chances in mmrca on this....but surly LCA might loose EJ2000......
 

Mustang

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Alpha is Angle of attack.

Your free to read up on the internet for the understand of what is an Alpha but is you just wanted context



To put that in perspective.

Tejas has an alpha of ~24

Su-30 MKI has an alpha exceeding 60
does it mean that Su-30 can still fly if it is at an angle of 60 degrees?...hard to believe. Isn't angle of attack is the angle made by the wing with respect to the horizontal?
 

gogbot

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does it mean that Su-30 can still fly if it is at an angle of 60 degrees?...hard to believe. Isn't angle of attack is the angle made by the wing with respect to the horizontal?
I ain't no expert on AoA , that's why i did not go much in to. AoA . I only tried to provide some context.
I am sure a more knowledgeable member can explain.

I have heard of AoA going as high as 80 degrees on experimental aircraft

MKI trust vectoring helps achieve such shark turns.

Here is an example

High Alpha Research Vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

gowthamraj7

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neo29

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If EF is expensive when it comes to hourly flight then surely the life costs increase 2 fold which is bad. EADS CEO last year had mentioned that EF is costly since its life costs are reduced as compared to other fighers. We need to look more closely on all fighters hourly costs.
 

neo29

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Global giants line up for $10-bn IAF aircraft deal

Top leaders of the world are lining up for a $10-billion Indian order for 126 fighter aircraft. Companies from the US, France and Russia have put in their bids for the 126 MMRCA for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the visiting leadership are expected to lobby with their counter parts. The US President Barack Obama's visit in November will be followed by the French President Nicolas Sarkozy's in early December and later by the Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.

Sources told FE on conditions of anonymity that, ''the six contenders have yet to be shortlisted. The defence ministry can decide on shortlisting the contenders only once it have the technical offsets evaluation committee report along with the Field Trial report.''

''After it goes to the Cabinet Committee on Security for a final decision, there will government-to-government negotiations in an effort to get additional benefits for the country,'' the source added.

American companies, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Boeing F/A-18, French Dassault Rafale, EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are in the running for the 126-aircraft programme.

So far the IAF has had a meeting with Lockheed Martin and the French 'Dassault' of Rafale.

According to sources, ''Vendors who are compliant rule wise, Defence Procurement Policy and Technical offsets will ultimately be opened for consideration. Also, the lowest bidder, designated L1, will be selected as the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA)."

The whole procedure is expected to take a couple of months and by then Obama will be here. ''While the MMRCA deal will be topping the agenda. Several other pending deals including the medium weight helicopters where the RFP is likely to be scrapped will be talked about. It is expected that India could ask the US for encryption technology too.''

French President Nicholas Sarkozy and his wife Carla Bruni will arrive on a two-day visit on December 6-7. ''Definitely MMRCA deal come up for discussions. Eventually the selection of the MMRCA will be political decision,'' said officials.

Apart from inking pact for the supply of two reactors, India and France will also sign a $2.2-billion deal to upgrade its Mirage fleet. The upgrade deal, which had been hanging fire for the past two years due to differences over the price, is now ready to be inked, sources in the defence ministry said.

France is also keen that India approve the Maitri air-to-surface Low-Level Quick Reaction Missile (LLQRM), which has been jointly developed by the.

DRDO and France's MBDA. While the missile's final design has been locked up, the government is still to give a go ahead for the joint project.

Though India and Russia are implementing several joint military programmes, the most important are the production and upgrading of the BrahMos missile and the construction of fifth-generation supersonic fighters, among other things.

The MiG-35 is one of the contenders for the MMRCA is a MiG-29. The presence of MiG-29 infrastructure and a new plant for licence-building RD-33 Series III engines in India makes compliance with industrial offset requirements easier. The Russians are keen to sell the MiG-35 to the IAF, and could possibly on the agenda of talks.

Global giants line up for $10-bn IAF aircraft deal
 

gowthamraj7

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LCA can have an Aplha
above 28 becuase of poor
design in the air intakes,
Su-30 MKI is more agile
than the F-18's. TVC gives
the aircraft an edge.



Gogbot that not true:no:
Yes tejas only tested upto 24. No more Bcs fear of engine flow out i.e when the engine start stop getting air.



Yes f-18 have slightly high angle of attack than su'30mki. Thrust vectoring have nothing to with it:)
 

luckyy

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MMRCA BUZZ: What Makes The IAF Nervous About The Americans

An IAF officer I spoke to six months ago to get a sense of how the Indian Air Force perceives partnerships with the United States as a potential outcome of the MMRCA competition, used a simple but strange metaphor to illustrate his opinion. Imagine India on the one side of a deep and wide ravine. Across this wide ravine is a gleaming suspension bridge. It looks great and appears superbly stable -- but in rough weather, there's every chance it will shake. In the past, when India has tried to cross this bridge, it has been forced to quickly retrace its steps midway when the bridge was buffeted by unkind winds that threatened to cast India into the ravine. So now, here's the question. Does the weather ever really change that much?

Two overwhelming notions, especially within the Indian media, over the last four years concerning the MMRCA competition, are, one, the government will choose an aircraft type based on political considerations. And two, since it does so, the Americans will win, since they offer more, on the face it, politically than any other nation. But these fall, indubitably, in the realm of government, and not the Indian Air Force. But while the IAF says it works only with determinables and not the intangibles, it obviously has concerns, many of which dwell in the realm of the political. Some of these concerns come up frequently and are well known. Others are less known and more specific. The idea of this post is to simply provide a consolidated view of perceptions of operating American aircraft.

Let's first get one thing out of the way. There are probably very few in the IAF who believe that the Americans can be beaten on potential technology. Notwithstanding arguments that the two American platforms on offer to India are essentially modernised legacy fighters with little or no modernisation latitude, there is a keen sense that the Americans control what is undeniably among the best aerospace technology in the world. The quality and temperament of sharing is a different matter, and I'll touch upon that later.

The chief cause of nervousness in the IAF regarding any potential hardware from the US is, quite clearly, the potential attendant erosion of autonomy. Nothing in the last six years has changed that perception. The Indian government is rightly skeptical about the CISMOA and BECA agreements, but the end-user verification pact (EUVA) that the two countries finally entered into (even with India's counterdraft accepted) is not something that went down well with the IAF. Crucially, there is a general sense that autonomy will potentially be affected not just as far as operations are concerned, but in other areas as well -- logistics, planning, profiling etc. Here's something even more interesting: One officer suggests that the use of the MMRCA aircraft as strategic deterrent platforms (i.e. nuclear delivery aircraft) is a grey area that could prove almost certainly problematic when dealing with the Americans, or at least more problematic with the Americans than the others. It so happens that the only country that has never questioned India's strategic positioning of its aircraft, are the French(though they have different, equally serious problems). "India may not be Turkey, Egypt or Pakistan, but if you look at any country that operates American aircraft, there has been a period -- sometimes prolonged -- of trouble," says the officer quoted above, adding, "This is something a country like Pakistan can afford, since it has already pledged its strategic future to one nation. But can we?" The fear that the autonomy overhang could affect operational planning is a very real one. A section of the IAF believes South Block is way too hardnosed to buckle to a bad deal -- there's another that believes reluctance to sign the EUVA was merely diplomatic grandstanding that conveniently harnessed the IAF's apprehensions -- and, therefore, that there is every chance the IAF will be saddled with jets it cannot fully use.

A related aspect is operational flexibility. During Kargil, the IAF reportedly did things to some of its Mirage-2000s that would have amounted to serious violations of the Indian government's contract with Dassault. It is understood, but not confirmed, that the French government was quietly engaged after the war and the two sides were able to agree that it was not a problem, and that no penalties would be slapped on the Indian government for what were, in reality, war exegencies, even though it was clear that there had been serious breaches of the technology agreement. The use of US aircraft would be far more potentially restricted and regulated by complex rules, legalese and guidelines. It's not that the IAF isn't used to this sort of thing. It's just that there's likely to be exponentially more to pore over before scrambling an American jet from an Indian base. Here's another point: Buying and operating US aircraft, some in the IAF believe, would "completely subvert" one of the most deeply entrenched "ways" of doing things in India -- using a generous dose of improvisation. "Will the American be fanatically remote controlling with India as well? It is hard to say," says the officer quoted above.

Next, of course, trust. Reliability and trust are major issues, and this has little do with any sort of hangover of the 1998 post-Shakti sanctions. An influential quarter in the IAF feels the US has not qualitatively demonstrated that it is a sincere partner, especially when it comes to India's indigenous programmes. In 1998, US sanctions dealt a death blow, or nearly so, to several Indian weapon and weapon platform programmes, including the country's missile programme, light combat aircraft, NCW technologies and other critical programmes. But little has actually changed. While the US is happy to sell India billions of dollars worth of hardware, it is suspiciously and conspicuously unreliable even now when it comes to indigenous programmes. For instance, the IAF is still wondering why the US government didn't allow Boeing to provide a technological and flight test consultancy to the Tejas programme. Recently, it was revealed that Lockheed-Martin was unable to obtain approvals from the US government to consult for the Naval Tejas programme (both contracts went by default to EADS). The point is, the consultancies were "small-fry contracts that held nothing of advantage to either of the American companies or the government," says a Group Captain. He adds, "Such denials are taken very seriously. What could the possible reason be for the US government to deny two small consultancies? It has not been reported much, so it is forgotten. For the service, it was a jolt. The implications are plain for anyone to deduce." He's right. For all the big-sounding partnership rhetoric that India has gotten used to being bombarded with from Washington, it's the little things that offer a different, decidedly worrying picture for the IAF. Simply put, the perception appears to be this in some quarters -- the Pentagon wants to sell you a lot of souped up Cold War era fighter planes, but doesn't want to tell you how to fine-tune carrier-safe landing gear assemblies. It doesn't want to tell you how to speed up flight trials. It refuses to tell you how to expand the operational envelope of your own in-development fighter platform. The two Tejas consultancy programmes are, incidentally, only two among at least a dozen similar contracts that the US has "won", but failed to act upon as a result of seeming Pentagon/State Department sensitivities. Result: perceptions that the US wants to sell India weapons, and has little interest in any real partnerships that could potentially edge out the need to buy those or similar weapons at a later stage as well.

A dramatic and interesting perception in a certain section of the IAF is that the F-16 Block 60 and F/A-18E/F are excellent fighter platforms, but that it is unlikely that the US will be either a willing or reliable partner as far as ensuring that these aircraft are on the cutting edge throughout their life of 40 years or more. The US government has, on behalf of the plane makers, assured the Indian government -- and will drive it home many more times -- that the future of these two platforms is completely safe. Still, the sense that you won't get the best they have is nowhere more overpowering than it is with the Americans.

Some of these concerns have a greater emphasis than others in ongoing dialogue between the IAF and the MoD, but all figure at various levels without exception. It must be said that there is, at the same time, a powerful section within the IAF -- with compelling arguments of its own on all the concerns listed above -- that the only way the IAF can make its next aerospace leap, is with technology from the United States, and that any other, would be a compromise on such a valuable opportunity to shift away from rusty strategic predilections of the past.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/
 
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luckyy

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MMRCA BUZZ: What Makes The IAF Nervous About The Americans
the only country that has never questioned India's strategic positioning of its aircraft, are the French(though they have different, equally serious problems).
anybody having any idea which are those equally serious problems ?
 
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luckyy

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MMRCA BUZZ: What Makes The IAF Nervous About The Americans
During Kargil, the IAF reportedly did things to some of its Mirage-2000s that would have amounted to serious violations of the Indian government's contract with Dassault.
what IAF did to its Mirage-2000s during Kargil that was considered serious violations of the Indian government's contract with Dassault...
 
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arya

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guys we spend 6 years or i can say we waste

with 10 billion $$ we can make plane in our country and it will take less then 6 year
 

Yusuf

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Really? We can make a plane in 6 years????
 

neo29

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The Mirage 2000 is officially assigned nuclear delivery long time back, we did not see any french objections in that. Assuming they had some issues during kargil war and expressed it through backdoor channels, but still it wasnt an issue to worry about.

If french can express concern i cant imagine what will the US do when we use American fighters during a war.

US has simple policy that it wants everyone to buy its weapons but only for defence. When it comes to offence you need their permission. The IAF surely has this in mind hence skeptical. If the establishment has this in mind then we can easily say good bye to US fighters.
 

arya

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Really? We can make a plane in 6 years????
yes we can just think what we get from MMRCA from last 6 years

even i dont know how much time will MMRCA process will take may be next 4 years to induct a plane

and at last f18 will be win because of USA pressure
 
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