MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

[LETHALFORCE]

Well if we are going to spend more we better get something that will easily dominate the F-16 (block 52 and maybe block 60) and be able to keep a decent technology edge for the next decade or two. And for me it's still Rafale and Eurofighter.

These two are the best candidates from a capability and a political sense, as well as the TOT package coming with them. I hope METEOR is licensed for production in India.

 

[Daredevil]

The problem with meteor is that it is very expensive - close to $2 million dollars (or even more). I think India cannot afford them on a mass scale. Too expensive.

http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/nao_reports/03-04/0304195.pdf

 

[Armand2REP]

Meteor will cost $1 million when it reaches full production. It is not a bad cost considering its capabilities.

 

[Daredevil]

It seems Eurofighter AESA Radar - Captor will be better than Rafale's RBE2 AESA due to high number of T/R modules (1424 (EF) vs 1000 (Rafale)). This will give Captor AESA larger range and better performance than RBE2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroradar_CAPTOR
http://www.thalesgroup.com/Workarea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=3416&LangType=2057

 

[nrj]

It seems Eurofighter AESA Radar - Captor will be better than Rafale's RBE2 AESA due to high number of T/R modules (1424 (EF) vs 1000 (Rafale)). This will give Captor AESA larger range and better performance than RBE2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroradar_CAPTOR
http://www.thalesgroup.com/Workarea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=3416&LangType=2057

True. But it is also coupled with the fact that new EF AESA radar will be integrated into Typhoon 4 years after Rafale flies with AESA. And when EFT integrates advanced AESA, Thales will also be looking for enhancing the capability of Rafale AESA.I don't think, they will stop research, it will be continuous process...

 

[Daredevil]

True. But it is also coupled with the fact that new EF AESA radar will be integrated into Typhoon 4 years after Rafale flies with AESA. And when EFT integrates advanced AESA, Thales will also be looking for enhancing the capability of Rafale AESA.I don't think, they will stop research, it will be continuous process...

May be, but Rafale's AESA development will be capped due to its small nose cone as it doesn't give the possibility of fitting in more TRMs. So, we need to see how they will try to circumvent this handicap in the future.

Take the analogy of 20 megapixel vs 8 megapixel camera. No matter how much research you do on the 8 megapixel camera, you cannot achieve 20 megapixel resolution. That is a physical cap.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Price of meteor is not bad I hear even our ASTRA cost 400,000-600,000 each and it would possibly advance this program too??

 

[nrj]

May be, but Rafale's AESA development will be capped due to its small nose cone as it doesn't give the possibility of fitting in more TRMs. So, we need to see how they will try to circumvent this handicap in the future.

Take the analogy of 20 megapixel vs 8 megapixel camera. No matter how much research you do on the 8 megapixel camera, you cannot achieve 20 megapixel resolution. That is a physical cap.

Not sure about the T/R module performance. But EFT's AESA will have wider range on sideways (more than +/- 100 degrees). Also the "Swashplate" design will give EFT's AESA advantage than others. This will subsequently give better A2A combat capability to Typhoon. But, it remains to be seen, will IAF wait for that?

 

[nrj]

Price of meteor is not bad I hear even our ASTRA cost 400,000-600,000 each and it would possibly advance this program too??

The price is justified. I just don't want to see India putting money into the future of METEOR program, while signing separate contract as a partner.

Catalyst: Will future A2G Meteor boost chances of EFT as it'll give enormous A2G capability & end its inefficiency?

 

[Armand2REP]

There is no guarantee Eurofighter will even get AESA. The way partner nations are closing their pocket books, I would say the chances are less than 50%. It cost France $1.5 billion to develop ours. Add to the defence inflation, CAPTOR-E will cost $3 billion to develop.

 

[Daredevil]

There is no guarantee Eurofighter will even get AESA. The way partner nations are closing their pocket books, I would say the chances are less than 50%. It cost France $1.5 billion to develop ours. Add to the defence inflation, CAPTOR-E will cost $3 billion to develop.

Why there is no Guarantee when a prototype has already been installed (in 2007) and when EADS promised AESA for Typhoon for MRCA??. Its still maturing and definitely will have edge over RBE2 when it comes out.

Just caught hold of Captor-E "Swash Plate" technology video. Looks cool.

 

[Armand2REP]

Why there is no Guarantee when a prototype has already been installed (in 2007) and when EADS promised AESA for Typhoon for MRCA??. Its still maturing and definitely will have edge over RBE2 when it comes out.

EADs don't make radar so they can't promise anything. CAPTOR is made by BAE and Selex, this Euroradar JV will not do it for free. It has to be funded by the partner governments and as we all know, they are broke. Their prototype was an early Vixen-500 model which is not anything close to a 1424 T/R module AESA, it is about 300.

Just caught hold of Captor-E "Swash Plate" technology video. Looks cool.

Very cool flashlight... let me know when they build a real one.

 

[Yusuf]

I cannot imagine european nations can't muster up 3 odd billion when in todays scheme of things sounds like lose change. Commonwealth games are costing india the same amount. So powerhouses like germany, britain and rest can't gather 3 billion together??

 

[Armand2REP]

I cannot imagine european nations can't muster up 3 odd billion when in todays scheme of things sounds like lose change. Commonwealth games are costing india the same amount. So powerhouses like germany, britain and rest can't gather 3 billion together??

It is a matter of need. None of the partner nations require an AESA equipped Eurofighter. The only reason is to help increase its exportability. If it was 300 million they wouldn't think twice, but $3 billion is an aircraft carrier.

 

[Yusuf]

But they have 700 odd planes of theirs and add 126 more to install those. When everyone is moving to newer tech why wouldn't the nations part of EFT want it? Why did they make the EFT in the first place. They could have stuck with their Tornadoes. Newer tech has to be absorbed.

 

[Armand2REP]

But they have 700 odd planes of theirs and add 126 more to install those. When everyone is moving to newer tech why wouldn't the nations part of EFT want it? Why did they make the EFT in the first place. They could have stuck with their Tornadoes. Newer tech has to be absorbed.

They don't have 700 odd planes of theirs. After the cuts it will be around 300 and they will be saving for the F-35. They made the Typhoon in order to defend their airspace from Russian aggression, now that the VVS is little more than a pittance of its former self, there is no need. They did stick with their Tornadoes which is why Typhoon still doesn't have the full A2G capability.

 

[StealthSniper]

But they have 700 odd planes of theirs and add 126 more to install those. When everyone is moving to newer tech why wouldn't the nations part of EFT want it? Why did they make the EFT in the first place. They could have stuck with their Tornadoes. Newer tech has to be absorbed.

I completely agree, they would be foolish not to continually upgrade their fighter jets, just like every other country would. Also, the Eurofighter program is a fairly new fighter program (development started in 93) compared to the F-16 (which started in the 1970's) and yet the F-16 is still competitive today, because technology keeps the F-16 relevant.

Right now the Eurofighter is the most modern fighter platform available today and it's expected to be in service much longer than any other fighter competing in the MMRCA today. And by 2020 I expect the Eurofighter to be a much more potent fighter than it is in 2010.

 

[Yusuf]

Even if you take 300. Odd and add 126 which may do up to about 200 its about 6 million a plane. India is spending 50mill a piece for its Mirage on just upgrades. Just find it hard to digest that a collection of 6 trillion plus economies can't shell out 3 billion on their defence. Aesa is the norm and they will have to get it. if nothing else for just pride of being europeans. I can't believe they are so broke.

 

[StealthSniper]

Even if you take 300. Odd and add 126 which may do up to about 200 its about 6 million a plane. India is spending 50mill a piece for its Mirage on just upgrades. Just find it hard to digest that a collection of 6 trillion plus economies can't shell out 3 billion on their defence. Aesa is the norm and they will have to get it. if nothing else for just pride of being europeans. I can't believe they are so broke.

Well Saudia Arabia, Austria, and alot of other countries that have old F-16's etc are looking to get Eurofighter so they have a reason to install AESA. But I do agree that the European nations are pretty broke right now. I still think that AESA is a no brainer (because of job creation, national security, etc) and their have been multiple sources saying that it's going ahead.

Here's One

http://www.defencetalk.com/eurofighter-and-euroradar-to-develop-latest-generation-aesa-radar-27605/

 

[Armand2REP]

You really can't rely on anything from the UK until after the SDSR, Germany will make their decision around the same time. As far as they are talking about cutting, it may well be on the chopping block.