MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

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nrj

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there is no doubt all these supposed leaks are a result of certain vested interests on part of these contestants and their stooges in the media but will it really pay?

MoD gives a damn to what media has to say on the matter, indian public has no real PoV on these purchases since the majority is clueless and there is no fear on part of the MoD of any public fallout if they were to go for any xyz jet because the majority has on purpose been kept off limits from any discussions on the armed forces and their purchases, the only time mass discusses the forces is when a kargil or a 26/11 happens and even then the equipment never gets discussed, leave all that aside MoD does not even heed to the wishes of defence forces always, infact clips their wishes lists quite significantly, other than all that a few jingos like us hardly matter who are really a minuscule of our population, so what is it that these contenders are trying to achieve, imagine saab putting an ad at a bus stop in delhi, what was saab thinking there and what are all these contestants thinking?

i think if any of these contestants really want to have a success, they now need to focus on what will their respective countries bring on the table politically and to what extent can they help india in lift its status globally and help india join various international bodies, i believe the more someone does that for india, better the chances of that country and contender, after all after all the technicalities the decision is going to be a political decision based on what political mileage we get in return, PM has on record said that and so has been repeated off late.

probably russians understand india the best and they are mum and they must be real busy where it matters the most, but then never say never when the americans are around.
Makes quite sense. Russians/Americans might be busy working on lobbying industry partners, highlighting the offset advantages, delivery bargains while others are making noise.

@Saab

They are not familiar with the way Indian defense deal work so they are trying everything, even putting poster on bus-stop or metro stations... But they will get used to it in coming time :happy_2:
 

thakur_ritesh

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Makes quite sense. Russians/Americans might be busy working on lobbying industry partners, highlighting the offset advantages, delivery bargains while others are making noise.

@Saab

They are not familiar with the way Indian defense deal work so they are trying everything, even putting poster on bus-stop or metro stations... But they will get used to it in coming time :happy_2:
oh yes, beyond a doubt industry will have a big enough role to play, and keep an eye on who all the TATA's are joining hands with. :D

as far as shortlisting is concerned, i think either there wont be any shortlisting (most likely to happen if i understand the way our country works) and if there was one to happen, then we will have 4 contenders (eft, rafale, f18, mig35), lets not forget soon sarkozy is expected, then obama and then medvedev (i think thats the order of their arriving in india).
 

Yusuf

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I still feel we cannot rule out the SH. I have a strange feeling that ultimately the americans will pull it off. only the americans bring bigger political and strategic gains to the table. Britain and france don't. For some reason I feel even the F16s might still be in the hunt with india thinking about the F35s at some stage. Just in case we don't get our own fifth gen fighter going. Indo US relationship is an evolving one. Past differences are being ironed out. If they can get us a waiver on nukes, something they led the world in denying to us, I don't think other minor issues will be allowed to spoil the party. My thinking is in spite of all that's coming out in the media, americans might take the deal.
 

Daredevil

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That's debatable, swashplate antenna presents its own problems. Added weight and maintenance overhead due to hydraulics required for mechanical steering.
The second is increased RCS, one of the biggest RCS contributors is the radar antenna, the amount of scattering caused by the antenna can be reduced by canting the antenna outward by 15 degrees. The idea is to scatter the incident electromagnetic waves away from probing radars. If the AESA antenna is mounted on a gimbal or swashplate and mechanically steered then the antenna will present a 90 degree angle to enemy radars - this is generally undesirable. Bandstop and bandpass filters that reduce the amount of scattering requires the antenna to remain fixed in the radome (nose cone).
Why do you assume that when gimball/swashplate mounted radar will actually steer in such a way that it will present 90 degree angle to enemy radars. It is still possible that steering is done in a canted manner all the time so as to not give 90 degree angle.

Have a look at this video, the captor-e never presented 90 degree angle

 
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nrj

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That's debatable, swashplate antenna presents its own problems. Added weight and maintenance overhead due to hydraulics required for mechanical steering.
The second is increased RCS, one of the biggest RCS contributors is the radar antenna, the amount of scattering caused by the antenna can be reduced by canting the antenna outward by 15 degrees. The idea is to scatter the incident electromagnetic waves away from probing radars. If the AESA antenna is mounted on a gimbal or swashplate and mechanically steered then the antenna will present a 90 degree angle to enemy radars - this is generally undesirable. Bandstop and bandpass filters that reduce the amount of scattering requires the antenna to remain fixed in the radome (nose cone).
Both AESAs are of different type, so the advantages & drawbacks are also different.

In fixed AESA, at extreme scan angles the effective aperture decreases, and the performance of the radar (range, sensitivity and jamming resistance) declines as a result. M-Scan has a larger field of regard than a fixed AESA, and better performance at the edge of the scan envelope.

The performance-degradation issues encountered in fixed-array AESA radars is well known. Fixed-array AESA technology suffers performance losses at wide-scan angles. To fix this USAF had plan of using 'side-arrays' on F-22 but it was dropped due to the associated expenses.

EADS & Saab believes that, increase in both air to air and air to ground capability far outweighs any minimal increase in maintenance. The Swashplate AESA allows repositioning and to counter performance degradation at high off-bore-sight angles.

The swashplate employs a "repositioner" driven by electric motors to negate the problem limited scan, along with providing other benefits. Antenna movement is automated using software to optimize radar performance relative to the tasks. It is not exactly "rotating" AESA but re-positing radar with pre-calculated movement.

In the air-to-air arena, the ability to move the angled array gives advantages in beyond-visual-range missile engagement, allowing the so-called F-pole to be maximized.

The gimbal of a pointable AESA does not have to be anything like as fast as an M-Scan gimbal. The high-speed stuff, tracking a moving target, is still done electronically, with the gimbal moving relatively slowly to optimize the field of view.To do this, it's essential to have a radar that can continue to track the target and guide the missile as the shooter turns away.

This is important for any MRCA today as the whole system - in the air-to-air regime - is influenced by air-combat simulations in which a fighter-to-fighter engagement could involve multiple MRAAM shots, followed by a supersonic turn to evade the adversary's fire and extend the F-pole.

Most fighters scan around 60 degrees off the nose but the Swashplate AESA can provide twice as much of the conventional. One tactical application, among many: the fighter can launch a datalink-updated missile and then turn sharply away, avoiding the adversary's return shot while its own missile continues to guide.

The limited scan angle problem was also understood during JSF development. But JSF being able to fly with VLO benefited and another idea was that "the wide scan update" would be provided to F35 via B2s & other datalinks. Although the emergence of wide-scanning fighters in post-2020 scenario is known to JSF developers.

Now employing Swashplate re-positioning AESA on EFT or Gripen NG will bring some RCS compromises. But these MRCA are not primarily VLO or stealth fighters. So it is fair & highly efficient.
 

vijay jagannathan

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can some one list the fighter deals that have been inked in the last 5 years ie which country, which chosen plane and numbers around the world and it will become clear where US stands. there are 5 active vendor countries. the USA and the european consortium, Sweden, russia and france.
 

luckyy

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there is no doubt all these supposed leaks are a result of certain vested interests on part of these contestants and their stooges in the media but will it really pay?

MoD gives a damn to what media has to say on the matter, indian public has no real PoV on these purchases since the majority is clueless
so what is it that these contenders are trying to achieve, imagine saab putting an ad at a bus stop in delhi, what was saab thinking there and what are all these contestants thinking?

probably russians understand india the best and they are mum and they must be real busy where it matters the most, but then never say never when the americans are around.
either saab putting images on bus stops or eads giving vedios to news channal.........

it's just that few contenders are more vocal then others...
 

nrj

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EFT's AESA is not exactly impossible or uncertain. UK & Germany hold the decision being money holder IMO. UK desperately wants efficient A2G capability to its Typhoons while Germany don't want to loose the ready export market. UK will be asking for advanced AESA (i.e E-scan Swashplate) which will be ready by 2015-16 while Germany wants quickest solution (i.e limited scanning ready AESA option) which might come handy in 1-2 years max. Germany doesn't want to loose its export market in case. On the other hand UK has no urgency & ready to wait as it needs A2G capable Typhoon, thus it is running the Electronic-Ground Attack development in parallel.

The EFT has two major upgrades in sight -

  1. AESA Radar -
Giving enhanced wide scan making it competent with US & other fighters in export market. (Keeping both AESA options open) The U.K. test item used a comparatively slow repositioner, but Eurofighter officials suggest a more rapid—and therefore more technically demanding—approach may be required for the Typhoon.

  • TVC for EJ2000 -
Leaving healthy fuel efficiency to EFT also giving advantages on LCC (Life cycle cost). Introducing TVC also would result in 7% more thrust in supercruise, possibly offering performance in the Mach 1.4 region. Takeoff thrust with full afterburner would rise by 2%, while takeoff distance could be cut by as much as 20%. Also the TVC will result in 2-7% less fuel burn.
(Note: LCA/NLCA engine with TVC deal/partnership comes in real simple picture)

The above upgrades can be exercised in Tranche-2 apart from the new Tranche-3.

EFT has future for sure. The development costs are justified looking at the edge EFT will gain over any competitor present. Most probably India will be given option to join as partner for MRCA deal. It is not a foolish investment IMO considering the IAF looking for 200 MRCAs & the export potential.

On the other side GOI will be negotiating hard for Indo-EU FTA this October. This will definitely give a greater political angle to MRCA deal. IMO Germany remains to be the key-player in EFT deal for India.

All I can say for sure is, there will be lot of meeting rounds between EADS officials, MOD, Fin Min & few other cabinet biggies. The curiosity is what timeline we are looking at for the ready IAF induction or advanced TOT integration followed by clear induction.
 
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death.by.chocolate

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Have a look at this video, the captor-e never presented 90 degree angle
Are you assuming ground based radar, air borne radar, missile seeker? As I said before, in a dense electronic environment your assertion " the captor-e never presented 90 degree angle" can't be true.
 

nrj

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Gripen NG's new advertisement for Indian MRCA bid -

 
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thakur_ritesh

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I still feel we cannot rule out the SH. I have a strange feeling that ultimately the americans will pull it off. only the americans bring bigger political and strategic gains to the table. Britain and france don't. For some reason I feel even the F16s might still be in the hunt with india thinking about the F35s at some stage. Just in case we don't get our own fifth gen fighter going. Indo US relationship is an evolving one. Past differences are being ironed out. If they can get us a waiver on nukes, something they led the world in denying to us, I don't think other minor issues will be allowed to spoil the party. My thinking is in spite of all that's coming out in the media, americans might take the deal.
neither does russia, they have lost their sheen and impact over the years and the days of the soviet union are now a distant dream, infact that was the exact reason why we started working our relations with the americans realising the futility of maintaining similar heightened relations with russia as was the case with ussr. even i sense it will be the americans and if they are in the arena, then yes LM with f16 is a pretty important contender backed with a f35 ,imagine post 126 is delivered, 100 odd f35 would significantly alter power balance of south asia including china, lets not forget IN is quite interested in having these birds around. i might be wrong but politically and strategically the 4 EFT consortium states will be quite a force to up the ante for us at various levels who have a huge impact on the working and decision making of the EU. possibly the americans could be kept busy with other deals that are happening on the sidelines which are quite significant and eft walks away with the mmrca deal.
 

Daredevil

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Are you assuming ground based radar, air borne radar, missile seeker? As I said before, in a dense electronic environment your assertion " the captor-e never presented 90 degree angle" can't be true.
May be. Then I think same will also apply to fixed AESA radar. So, I don't see any disadvantages of gimbal/swashplate mounted AESA radar versus fixed AESA radar with respect to RCS. Both of them are equally vulnerable to enemy radar.
 

death.by.chocolate

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Both AESAs are of different type, so the advantages & drawbacks are also different.

In fixed AESA, at extreme scan angles the effective aperture decreases, and the performance of the radar (range, sensitivity and jamming resistance) declines as a result. M-Scan has a larger field of regard than a fixed AESA, and better performance at the edge of the scan envelope.

The performance-degradation issues encountered in fixed-array AESA radars is well known. Fixed-array AESA technology suffers performance losses at wide-scan angles. To fix this USAF had plan of using 'side-arrays' on F-22 but it was dropped due to the associated expenses.

EADS & Saab believes that, increase in both air to air and air to ground capability far outweighs any minimal increase in maintenance. The Swashplate AESA allows repositioning and to counter performance degradation at high off-bore-sight angles.

The swashplate employs a "repositioner" driven by electric motors to negate the problem limited scan, along with providing other benefits. Antenna movement is automated using software to optimize radar performance relative to the tasks. It is not exactly "rotating" AESA but re-positing radar with pre-calculated movement.

In the air-to-air arena, the ability to move the angled array gives advantages in beyond-visual-range missile engagement, allowing the so-called F-pole to be maximized.

The gimbal of a pointable AESA does not have to be anything like as fast as an M-Scan gimbal. The high-speed stuff, tracking a moving target, is still done electronically, with the gimbal moving relatively slowly to optimize the field of view.To do this, it's essential to have a radar that can continue to track the target and guide the missile as the shooter turns away.

This is important for any MRCA today as the whole system - in the air-to-air regime - is influenced by air-combat simulations in which a fighter-to-fighter engagement could involve multiple MRAAM shots, followed by a supersonic turn to evade the adversary's fire and extend the F-pole.

Most fighters scan around 60 degrees off the nose but the Swashplate AESA can provide twice as much of the conventional. One tactical application, among many: the fighter can launch a datalink-updated missile and then turn sharply away, avoiding the adversary's return shot while its own missile continues to guide.

The limited scan angle problem was also understood during JSF development. But JSF being able to fly with VLO benefited and another idea was that "the wide scan update" would be provided to F35 via B2s & other datalinks. Although the emergence of wide-scanning fighters in post-2020 scenario is known to JSF developers.

Now employing Swashplate re-positioning AESA on EFT or Gripen NG will bring some RCS compromises. But these MRCA are not primarily VLO or stealth fighters. So it is fair & highly efficient.
Lets leave the JSF and Raptor out of this discussion since both receive battlefield data from satellites, surface and air borne assets to enhance situational awareness.
Like I said earlier the advantage of swashplate or gimbal mounted AESA antenna is debatable, all MRCA contenders have visible RCS reducing features. The addition of a swashplate mounted antenna will increase RCS to the extent of negating all the other RCS reducing features of the fighter. Finally, for operations supported by airborne radar the swashplate mounted AESA antenna has limited utility. Mid course guidance for missiles like AMRAAM does not require the launching platform to constantly illuminate the target.
 

death.by.chocolate

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May be. Then I think same will also apply to fixed AESA radar. So, I don't see any disadvantages of gimbal/swashplate mounted AESA radar versus fixed AESA radar with respect to RCS. Both of them are equally vulnerable to enemy radar.
Not necessarily the nose cone contains specially fabricated bandpass and bandstop filters that prevent external radiation from reaching the antenna. But for the bandpass or bandstop filters to work the antenna must remain stationary inside the nose cone. In addition canting the antenna by 15 degrees cause any incident radiation to be scattered away from the probing radar.
 

anoop_mig25

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I still feel we cannot rule out the SH. I have a strange feeling that ultimately the americans will pull it off. only the americans bring bigger political and strategic gains to the table. Britain and france don't. For some reason I feel even the F16s might still be in the hunt with india thinking about the F35s at some stage. Just in case we don't get our own fifth gen fighter going. Indo US relationship is an evolving one. Past differences are being ironed out. If they can get us a waiver on nukes, something they led the world in denying to us, I don't think other minor issues will be allowed to spoil the party. My thinking is in spite of all that's coming out in the media, americans might take the deal.
but then what about TOT would Indian government would forget about it . plus wont they would come from some string attached to it ? i think best would go for some neutral country. enough has been purchased form america in near past. just for having strategic gains we cannot have our freedom in their hands. why american help us . they help us only when when they see their profits. why did n`t they alerted us on headely cases. they knew it from first day that their guy has turned rough? he was caught only at the behest/pressure of jews lobby working in america
 

Daredevil

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Lets leave the JSF and Raptor out of this discussion since both receive battlefield data from satellites, surface and air borne assets to enhance situational awareness.
Like I said earlier the advantage of swashplate or gimbal mounted AESA antenna is debatable, all MRCA contenders have visible RCS reducing features. The addition of a swashplate mounted antenna will increase RCS to the extent of negating all the other RCS reducing features of the fighter. Finally, for operations supported by airborne radar the swashplate mounted AESA antenna has limited utility. Mid course guidance for missiles like AMRAAM does not require the launching platform to constantly illuminate the target.
I think your assertion of swashplate mounted antennae not having any advantage over fixed ones is also debatable. It is clear that swashplate mounted antennae will have wider scanning angles and thus give better situational awareness than a fixed one which will have smaller scanning angles. It is also debatable that having a swash-plate mounted antennae will have higher RCS due to its rotation.
 

Daredevil

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Not necessarily the nose cone contains specially fabricated bandpass and bandstop filters that prevent external radiation from reaching the antenna. But for the bandpass or bandstop filters to work the antenna must remain stationary inside the nose cone. In addition canting the antenna by 15 degrees cause any incident radiation to be scattered away from the probing radar.
Can you give me a source for the existence of such bandpass/bandstop filters in American and European fighter aircrafts. If European aircrafts doesn't possess this technology, then discussing about this filter in the context of fixed or swashplate mounted antennae is moot. Don't you agree?.
 

Daredevil

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Antenna mode scattering and RCS gain is a scientifically established fact.
For a minute lets agree (though I need to read more on this or you can give me some links) that the rotation of AESA does increase the RCS, but do you know to what degree the RCS will increase, by 2 folds or 2%. If the increase of RCS is negligible, then your argument regarding fixed vs swashplate antennae disadvantages will not convince anyone. According to different sources, the frontal RCS of Typhoon is 1m2. If RCS due to installation of swashplate AESA (as opposed to fixed AESA) increases to 1.05m2 or even 1.1m2, then I say go for swashplate AESA.

So, will you able to quantify and tell me ball park figure for the increase of RCS in swashplate mode.
 

nrj

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Lets leave the JSF and Raptor out of this discussion since both receive battlefield data from satellites, surface and air borne assets to enhance situational awareness.
Like I said earlier the advantage of swashplate or gimbal mounted AESA antenna is debatable,
It is not debatable, it is most-effective, cost efficient solution for wide-angle scanning not just for air targets but also for A2G mapping, imaging.

all MRCA contenders have visible RCS reducing features. The addition of a swashplate mounted antenna will increase RCS to the extent of negating all the other RCS reducing features of the fighter.
There is some RCS compromise mainly due to additional weight (if leading physical changes) but nothing marginal while incorporating this Swashplate AESA. The new EFT AESA will weigh about 220 kg (about 25 kg more than the current radar), thus leaving maximum range of 120 km against a one square metre RCS target. The bolded part is a calculated compromise nothing marginal or harmful.


Finally, for operations supported by airborne radar the swashplate mounted AESA antenna has limited utility.
Limited utility?
Performance degradation in fixed AESA in high off-boresight angles in a major problem for conventional fighter radars. Swashplate AESA counters this problem to a appreciable extent. A fixed AESA cannot perform well beyond about a 50-degree angle because it cannot phase shift, and thereby loses a lot of power. The re-positioner provides a plus/minus 100-degree view, and it articulates in two dimensions to maintain radar polarization. This extends the AESA operational capability giving much larger utility than any other at most affordable cost.

Mid course guidance for missiles like AMRAAM does not require the launching platform to constantly illuminate the target.
Guiding missile is one part of the Swashplate advantages. F-Pole maximization is a proven requisite in fighter operations and this swashplate based AESA scores above the fixed-AESA. Such wide-angle scanning benefits can not be achieved at such lower costs than swashplate based AESA. Fixed AESA are degraded after some angle & blind beyond, in wide angle. Swashplate solution gives enhanced performance & will give greater capability to fighter than any other.
 
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