MMRCA news and discussions.

[AJSINGH]

Even the French are ready to transfer their RBE-2 Radar technology. The EADS are ready to transfer CAPTOR's technology. And you are forgetting the French.

true , but more importantly the question is that IS THE FRENCH RADAR BETTER THAN THE RUSSIAN ?

 

[GRIM SS]

MiG-35

:dazed::dazed: MiG-35 multirole fighters offered for sale to India cannot start before 2013 or 2014, a Russian aircraft maker said. IAF would not be able to take delivery before 2014. that’s likely to put the MiG-35 at a significant disadvantage against the other competitors, all of whom would be able to begin delivering aircraft by 2011 :dazed:

 

[SATISH]

true , but more importantly the question is that IS THE FRENCH RADAR BETTER THAN THE RUSSIAN ?

Yes...the RBE-2's new antenna is better than the Zhuk AE and French radar resolution is better than the Zhuk AE's resolution.

 

[p2prada]

To all the Mig-35 supporters,
Can you people tell me why Mig-35 is coming as open architecture platform?
As per me either its electronics/avionics are not yet developed or are not upto mark.

For integrating Indian and Israeli avionics and components and for no other reason.

 

[Vladimir79]

Zhuk AE radar is compariable to 1st generation American AESA Radar. As a matter of fact Mig-35 is not yet fully developed but under development.

US is only in mass production of second generation AESA. The entire rest of the world is in the first generation phase. The Zhuk AE is fully developed so I don't know where you get your information that it is not. It has completed all trials and certified for mass production. Not only that, but we are coming out with the second generation FGA-35 which will increase T/R module density and increase range and function on the level of APG-79. We are far ahead of our EU competitors.

Finally there is no big deal in getting radar signature for a radar. As you know radars emit radio waves and every radio wave has a unique frequency. On this frequency the signature is found out. What matter most is ECM and ECCM capability.

Do you know the meaning of LPI? It means Low Probability of Intercept and Russian AESA has this. Detecting our radar scans will be near impossible. Don't worry about MiG-35 ECM, it is getting the best Italy has from Ellettronica, the ELT/568(v)2 jammer. This jammer is even better than that on Eurofighter developed by the same company.

 

[AJSINGH]

Yes...the RBE-2's new antenna is better than the Zhuk AE and French radar resolution is better than the Zhuk AE's resolution.

can you quote your sources for that statement because there is not much data about RBE-2 radar on internet which says that it is better than the Zhuk AE

 

[Vladimir79]

:dazed::dazed: MiG-35 multirole fighters offered for sale to India cannot start before 2013 or 2014, a Russian aircraft maker said. IAF would not be able to take delivery before 2014. that’s likely to put the MiG-35 at a significant disadvantage against the other competitors, all of whom would be able to begin delivering aircraft by 2011 :dazed:

None of the competitors will be able to deliver by 2011. The contract won't even be signed until then if not later. Their radars do not meet MMRCA weather mapping standards which will take even longer for delivery. F-16 would take at least that long due to LM backlogged orders. F-35 is gearing up for production which could take even longer. Boeing is still supplying USN and ADF back orders of SH. Gripen AESA is no where near being mass produced as well as facing US ToT issues. Rafale AESA has no weather mode and still won't be fielded on French fighters until 2012 making MMRCA wait longer. MiG is in a good position with a radar that already meets all reqs and modes and certified for mass production. The initial deliveries are not the most important, setting HAL up for mass production the quickest is and we have the relationship to do it.

 

[Vladimir79]

The article doesn't specify if India has asked for full ToT or not.
The article however clearly says that the level of ToT offered by Raytheon APG-79AESA will be complient to the RFP issued. A person after logical thinking can figure out that complete ToT was not one of the codition in RFP.
As for Su-35BM doesnot offer an AESA but an improved PESA. Till date russia doesn't have an operation AESA.
Except for fly by optics i don't see any advantage BM offers over MKI.

Su-35BM has several advantages over Su-30MKI. AL-41F1A which has better engine service life and power ie, supercruise, better altitude, better range, better thrust:weight, better climb rate, and 3 dimensional TVC for better maneuverability. More composites, RAM coating and lower RCS. Better radar whether it be Irbis-E or the upcoming AESA. Larger engagement envelop and detection of stealth targerts. Better data-links and high powered KNIRTI SAP-14 jamming pod which can act as stand-off/escort jammer. Not to mention the fly-by-optics. Simply put, Su-35BM is Su-30MKI on some major steriods.

 

[Vladimir79]

Even the French are ready to transfer their RBE-2 Radar technology. The EADS are ready to transfer CAPTOR's technology. And you are forgetting the French.

RBE-2 doesn't have weather mapping nor is it in service in French AF until 2012. Russia has the upper hand in time and Thales has not disclosed the specifics of the radar suggesting it is not up to speed, neither has CAPTOR-E. The Eurofighter consortium won't even finish developing it unless they get more Tranche 3 orders.

 

[SATISH]

RBE-2 doesn't have weather mapping nor is it in service in French AF until 2012. Russia has the upper hand in time and Thales has not disclosed the specifics of the radar suggesting it is not up to speed, neither has CAPTOR-E. The Eurofighter consortium won't even finish developing it unless they get more Tranche 3 orders.

Sir,
But the UAC corporation chief and latest news reports suggest that MiG 35 cant go into full scale production before 2013 or 2014 time-frame. Then even having the radar so soon dosent guarantee the arrival of the aircrafts faster. The MiG 35 production line has to be made only after any country places an order for it. Thus even if RBE-2 is operational by 2012 the Rafale has the time advantage over MiG 35.

I was talking about joint production and transfer of technology in CAPTOR. Yes Russians have been our very trustworthy supplier but right now India needs a bomb truck that can take care of itself and MiG 35 is like a air superiority fighter. The F 18s and Rafale are the best ones around as F 16 is used by Pakistan. and Rafale's chances are less due to its underpowered M-88 Engine. I dont think it can take off with a full weapons load from Leh in the specified distance.

 

[SATISH]

AJSingh

scroll to page 12.

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...teur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_8.pdf

 

[SATISH]

http://www.thalesgroup.com/assets/0/93/238/58891885-e39c-40d3-95f8-16945e66791d.pdf?LangType=2057

ECS Brouchure Thales

http://www.thalesgroup.com/assets/0/93/238/73249926-0475-4efa-a174-1ebbb1a4cc0f.pdf?LangType=2057
rbe2 Brouchure

 

[Vladimir79]

Sir,
But the UAC corporation chief and latest news reports suggest that MiG 35 cant go into full scale production before 2013 or 2014 time-frame. Then even having the radar so soon dosent guarantee the arrival of the aircrafts faster. The MiG 35 production line has to be made only after any country places an order for it. Thus even if RBE-2 is operational by 2012 the Rafale has the time advantage over MiG 35.

MiG-35 has a signed state defence order. It will be produced whether India buys it or not. The production line has been gearing up for the last 12 months with $600 million invested for retooling at Sokol. Having the radar might not speed up our time table, but it slows down the competition when they do not. India will not likely sign the deal until 2012 since none of the competitors will be ready before then. The RFP says the first aerocraft must be supplied within 36 months of signing and the 18th within 48 months. We can supply the first one the day of signing and can easily produce 17 more in two years to meet the RFP. You do not need a full scale production line to make one squadron of planes. The real thing Indian MoD is looking at is who can meet the 56 month RFP for HAL to start mass producing the planes and Russia wins that point thanks to our close working relationship with HAL.

I was talking about joint production and transfer of technology in CAPTOR. Yes Russians have been our very trustworthy supplier but right now India needs a bomb truck that can take care of itself and MiG 35 is like a air superiority fighter. The F 18s and Rafale are the best ones around as F 16 is used by Pakistan. and Rafale's chances are less due to its underpowered M-88 Engine. I dont think it can take off with a full weapons load from Leh in the specified distance.

If you buy these Western fighters you are going to have to rely on them for Western bombs and missiles. MiG-35 can already carry IAF inventory and with a little coding can carry anything else. They might be better bomb trucks but you are going to pay two very high prices. One being reliance on these powers to supply you with them and two not being able to use the Russian ordinance that India has and will continue to procure for the rest of its fleet. Whatever aerocraft you buy, you will not be dropping the unguided bombs made by OFB from these high expense planes.

 

[Vladimir79]

http://www.thalesgroup.com/assets/0/93/238/58891885-e39c-40d3-95f8-16945e66791d.***?LangType=2057

ECS Brouchure Thales

http://www.thalesgroup.com/assets/0/93/238/73249926-0475-4efa-a174-1ebbb1a4cc0f.***?LangType=2057
rbe2 Brouchure

Websites not found...

 

[p2prada]

Su-35BM has several advantages over Su-30MKI. AL-41F1A which has better engine service life and power ie, supercruise, better altitude, better range, better thrust:weight, better climb rate, and 3 dimensional TVC for better maneuverability.

I guess these engines or better ones will be used post 2020 on the MKI too.

More composites, RAM coating and lower RCS.

Similar, being worked on the MKI to be ready by 2014 along with smart skin concept.

Better radar whether it be Irbis-E or the upcoming AESA. Larger engagement envelop and detection of stealth targerts.

MKI and BM will have the same radar sir. Post 2014, its AESA.

Better data-links

Once we get our ODL from Israel, it will be better than anything Russia can deliver for the time being.

and high powered KNIRTI SAP-14 jamming pod which can act as stand-off/escort jammer.

My guess is we will use Israeli /Indian mix for ECM.

Not to mention the fly-by-optics. Simply put, Su-35BM is Su-30MKI on some major steriods.

BM is better than the current MKI. But, post 2014, they will pretty much be in the same class. The Block 3/4 MKI will be as good as the post 2014 BM.

More importantly, the MKI MLU package is already being worked on. Buying BM means setting up a new plan which will cost more time and money. Afterall, MKI and BM airframes are the same with minor changes. Engines and avionics can be upgraded.

 

[Vladimir79]

Sounds nice... you have a link for these upgrade plans?

 

[AJSINGH]

Rafale Weakness

The albatross around the Rafale remains its relatively unproven stature, and of course, the fact that it hasn't ever been exported. As one of the most expensive (flyaway cost) aircraft in the sweepstakes, it also comes with possibly the largest price-tag in terms of total contract cost, though Dassault has made strenuous efforts to convey to the IAF that its use of Dassault aircraft over time, particularly the Mirage, will significantly erode the total commitment necessary in terms of new infrastructure. Obviously, the IAF isn't buying this -- they're treating the Rafale as any new aircraft type. There are almost no articulated weaknesses in specifications, though the IAF is anxious about an aircraft that has been fielded for a lot of competitions unsuccessfully. Finally, the government has recently awarded France with the huge Scorpene deal. Awarding the MMRCA to France would be politically too much for too little. The leadership of Nicolas Sarkozy doesn't half do what Jacques Chirac's did in its time.
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: MRCA

 

[SATISH]

Websites not found...

sir they are working perfectly...they are in p d f format...I checked them just now...

 

[SATISH]

Rafale Weakness

The albatross around the Rafale remains its relatively unproven stature, and of course, the fact that it hasn't ever been exported. As one of the most expensive (flyaway cost) aircraft in the sweepstakes, it also comes with possibly the largest price-tag in terms of total contract cost, though Dassault has made strenuous efforts to convey to the IAF that its use of Dassault aircraft over time, particularly the Mirage, will significantly erode the total commitment necessary in terms of new infrastructure. Obviously, the IAF isn't buying this -- they're treating the Rafale as any new aircraft type. There are almost no articulated weaknesses in specifications, though the IAF is anxious about an aircraft that has been fielded for a lot of competitions unsuccessfully. Finally, the government has recently awarded France with the huge Scorpene deal. Awarding the MMRCA to France would be politically too much for too little. The leadership of Nicolas Sarkozy doesn't half do what Jacques Chirac's did in its time.
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: MRCA

First I would like to see it take off with maximum load in Leh within the given distance...then I will find if it is still in the race...

 

[AJSINGH]

At Satish , website still not working