MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[Gtmbisht82]

Indian AirForce slashes its Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) Programme by half, set to reboot acquisition under a different procurement category.

 

[Super Flanker]

Indian AirForce slashes its Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) Programme by half, set to reboot acquisition under a different procurement category.

New Circus from the IAF's side! If this is true than now IAF will have no other choice but to give an order for additional Rafales and finish this whole MMRCA 2.0 drama. That's it, now IAF will have to procure additional Tejas MK-2 in compensation for the number of Aircrafts cut down in MMRCA.

 

[lcafanboy]

Noble peace award winner Vishwa Guru Jhumlendra Modi....

 

[Super Flanker]

In light of the recent reports which Suggest/Claim that the Indian Airforce has cut it's Requirement of 114 jets to 57, well please don't take all of these reports at face value right now, unless and until we get Official confirmation from the IAF or current air chief Marshal, please don't believe it.

 

[abingdonboy]

Indian AirForce slashes its Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) Programme by half, set to reboot acquisition under a different procurement category.

20 flipping years (and counting) for this circus

why can’t they just do what we all know they want to do- order more Rafales off the shelf and close the import fighter story of IAF for good?

Dassualt are clearly not very good at greasing the right palms inside IAF and MoD, Modi went to Paris in 2015 to close the 36 Rafale ‘emergency order’ which always had a clause for 36 more, it’s been 7 years and not a single additional airframe has been ordered for this role.

Words truly fail me. Indian services seem to be on self destruct missions these days

 

[Love Charger]

Convert to Islam and we get 300 black jets of allah

 

[WolfPack86]

INDIA CUTS BACK WORLD’S LARGEST FIGHTER JET PROCUREMENT PROGRAM BY HALF FROM 114 TO 57
The Indian Air Force (IAF) is cutting down its largest fighter jet procurement program by half and has indicated the likelihood of a change in the procurement model to one which is more acceptable to foreign suppliers for compliance to Make in India requirements in view of the reduced numbers.

It is learnt from highly placed sources that the estimated $20 Billion Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) procurement program for 114 foreign jets is being shrunk to acquisition of 57 jets through a global competition.

The original proposal to make these jets in India under the ambitious Strategic Partnership (SP) Model is set to be dumped and the shrunken program is likely to be rebooted under the Buy Global (Make in India) category of the Defence Acquisition Procedure 2020, sources elaborated. All the 57 fighters will be made in India with transfer of technology from the foreign OEM to an Indian company.

The cutback is mainly on account of the Government’s Aatmanirbhar Bharat (self-reliant India) policy directive to minimize Defence imports and build up a domestic Defence Industrial complex instead to meet military requirements. A renewed drive is afoot to commit most of the capital budget for Defence modernization to domestic sources. Even the Indian Navy requirement for imported deck-borne fighters was reduced from 57 to 26. The cutback on the MRFA and the Navy fighters is both an opportunity and challenge for domestic industry to make up the numbers.

The timeline for issuance of a global tender for acquisition of 57 jets is end-2022, it is learnt. The IAF had approached the global market with an RFI for 114 fighters in 2018. Responses were received by Air Headquarters on behalf of Lockheed Martin’s F-21, Boeing’s F-15EX and F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault’s Rafale, SAAB’s Gripen, the European consortium’s Eurofighter, Sukhois S-35 and MiG’s MiG-35.

India’s record at procurement of a foreign fighter through global competition is tortuous. The MRFA’s predecessor, the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program for 126 fighters, was aborted after a decade-long procurement process threw up Dassault’s Rafale as the winner but failed to secure a contractual agreement. In 2016, India went in for a direct purchase of 36 Rafale fighters as an emergency procurement in a Government-to-Government deal with France.

A foreign fighter is critical to the IAF’s plan to peg its numbers to about 35 squadrons over the next 15 years. A proven foreign combat jet is also meant to ensure interim reliability and assurance till the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft variants and the futuristic Fifth Generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) mature and stabilize. The authorized fighter strength for the IAF is 42 squadrons, which IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari acknowledged will not be realized in the foreseeable future.

The IAF’s anxiety to ensure minimum force levels is also on account of the impending retirement of its legacy jets comprising the Mirage-2000, MiG-29 and the Jaguars fleets over the next decade. The residual squadrons of the MiG-21 will also be out by 2024.

Two new Rafale squadrons are operational. Delivery of 83 TEJAS MK-1A fighters will commence in 2024. The TEJAS M2-2 and AMCA are expected in a decade in a best-case scenario. The MRFA was envisaged to mitigate the gap of fighter squadrons and combat capability. But the IAF, which was hoping for six fall back MRFA squadrons, will now have to work around three.

Industry sources expressed the view that reduced numbers in a global tender make it more difficult to meet stringent Make in India and transfer of technology requirements profitably. “A cutback in numbers by half makes it more challenging to execute a complex tender like this one. Numbers provide viability, cost-effectiveness and affordability,” an observer reasoned.

The other big concern is that the SP model - a key reform to kickstart the emergence of a private sector Defence Industrial complex by reserving one big procurement per category as a one-time measure - has failed to take off. The Naval Utility Helicopter (NUH) program – the first under the SP Model - has been dumped. There’s little progress in the Project 75 (I) submarine program, and now the re-categorisation of the MRFA is a body blow. This initiative is likely to head back to the drawing board, insiders reckon.

The recategorization of the MRFA means that the tender would be awarded to a foreign OEM, which would deliver the Make in India element through an Indian partner of its choice. Under the SP Model, an Indian company would have been the prime, with the option to choose a technical collaborator from among a pool of foreign OEMs shortlisted by the Ministry of Defence.

India Cuts Back World’s Largest Fighter Jet Procurement Program By Half From 114 To 57

IAF’s global Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft Program shrinks from 114 fighters to 57 amidst focus on domestic industry reports BW The Indian Air...

www.indiandefensenews.in

 

[space marine]

Sadly folks our Indian Air Force is a fucking arrogant and stupid child...
Nationalist govt should shove Tejas MK2 in their throat and ask them put rest of money into integration with army and navy or even para military.
Enough of this Mrca shit now

 

[Super Flanker]

Will any vendor in MMRCA be willing to give TOT for only 57 jets? It seems highly unlikely from my POV. If the deal has indeed been cut to 57 and if we buy any jet now, than we will have to buy them in "Fly-away" condition, Transfer of Technology is not happening at this point.

 

[space marine]

Will any vendor in MMRCA be willing to give TOT for only 57 jets? It seems highly unlikely from my POV. If the deal has indeed been cut to 57 and if we buy any jet now, than we will have to buy them in "Fly-away" condition, Transfer of Technology is not happening at this point.

The mrca deal should be scrapped no point getting these off the shelf planes better put all weigth behind MK2 and AMCA..
Enough of IAF chutiapanti

 

[Super Flanker]

The mrca deal should be scrapped no point getting these off the shelf planes better put all weigth behind MK2 and AMCA..
Enough of IAF chutiapanti

As much as I don't like IAF's procurement process, I would disagree with you, MMRCA 2.0 is a need, Tejas MK-2 and AMCA will start their production only after 2028, for the mean time, we still need a good number of jets to act as a stop gap until Tejas MK-2, AMCA start their induction.

 

[space marine]

As much as I don't like IAF's procurement process, I would disagree with you, MMRCA 2.0 is a need, Tejas MK-2 and AMCA will start their production only after 2028, for the mean time, we still need a good number of jets to act as a stop gap until Tejas MK-2, AMCA start their induction.

MRCA circus will be even lengthier ... Modi govt wont decide for any winner this year and by next year it will be near to General election so if BjP comes back to power by end of 2024 something will be signed add 3 more years before planes start landing.
Put extra money into MK2 ... first MK2 will be delivered to IAF before that.

 

[Super Flanker]

MRCA circus will be even lengthier ... Modi govt wont decide for any winner this year and by next year it will be near to General election so if BjP comes back to power by end of 2024 something will be signed add 3 more years before planes start landing.
Put extra money into MK2 ... first MK2 will be delivered to IAF before that.

Do you know what is the price at which Rafale and SU-35 are being Respectively offered? I heard Somewhere on the internet that SU-35 costs less than half of Rafale.

 

[space marine]

Do you know what is the price at which Rafale and SU-35 are being Respectively offered? I heard Somewhere on the internet that SU-35 costs less than half of Rafale.

SU35 has cost of ownership triple than that of Rafale ultimately it will even out... ruskis are sm mofo pesky dealers they squeez 100 dollar for a nut due to licensing shit n all.
Rafale will bring much more capability and on station time than su35 or su57 with simmilar or lesser cost of ownership

 

[Super Flanker]

SU35 has cost of ownership triple than that of Rafale ultimately it will even out... ruskis are sm mofo pesky dealers they squeez 100 dollar for a nut due to licensing shit n all.
Rafale will bring much more capability and on station time than su35 or su57 with simmilar or lesser cost of ownership

Do you have any source to prove that SU-35 will have a license/ownership cost which will be more than 3x that of the Dassault Rafale? This statement of yours is hard to believe.

And lastly the SU-57 is far more advanced than the Rafale, Sure Russian Weopons are more expensive in terms of maintenance as compared to western ones but they are good. SU-35 is best option after Rafale only in terms of logistics, and not Capability AFAIK.

 

[space marine]

Do you have any source to prove that SU-35 will have a license cost which will be more than 3x that of the Dassault Rafale? This statement of yours is hard to believe.

And lastly the SU-57 is far more advanced than the Rafale, Sure Russian Weopons are more expensive in terms of maintenance as compared to western ones but they are good. SU-35 is best option after Rafale only in terms of logistics, and not Capability AFAIK.

Not licensing cost but maintenance cost, on station cost.
Case in point is Mirage 2000 and MKI comparison

 

[MirageBlue]

New Circus from the IAF's side! If this is true than now IAF will have no other choice but to give an order for additional Rafales and finish this whole MMRCA 2.0 drama. That's it, now IAF will have to procure additional Tejas MK-2 in compensation for the number of Aircrafts cut down in MMRCA.

Not by the IAF. This has for sure come from the MoD and GoI. They have ascertained that the cost of 114 MRFA will be completely unaffordable.

Plus we have already acquired 36 Rafales. The original requirement was for 126, so that left 90. But with progress being made on Tejas Mk2 and the IAF backing it to fill in for the retirements of Jaguars, Mirage-2000Is and MiG-29UPGs, the GoI has sensibly cut down on the MRFA. Now the IAF has no choice but to put all it's efforts into making the Tejas Mk2 a success. And if they're smart enough, to start studying the possibility of an IAF version of the TEDBF.

Given that the Navy will also acquire 26 MRCBF, the two can be bundled together (something the Navy Chief had once stated was the idea) to get a sizeable number to build within the country. So, 57 MRFA + 26 MRCBF will give 83 units that could be one type built in India.

It is quite obvious that the Rafale suits all the criteria. 36 units already in service with infrastructure in place for 2 more squadrons, most strategic autonomy of all types, carrier variant available and so single assembly line can produce both IAF's MRFA and IN's MRCBF.

 

[MirageBlue]

Do you have any source to prove that SU-35 will have a license/ownership cost which will be more than 3x that of the Dassault Rafale? This statement of yours is hard to believe.

And lastly the SU-57 is far more advanced than the Rafale, Sure Russian Weopons are more expensive in terms of maintenance as compared to western ones but they are good. SU-35 is best option after Rafale only in terms of logistics, and not Capability AFAIK.

You don't need a source to prove it. It is a well known fact that the Su-30MKI which will have a similar operating cost, is very expensive to operate and maintain. Russian maintenance philosophy, design philosophy is quite different from the Western which are far more modern and consume less time and labour.

It is also significantly heavier, with much larger engines that consume much more fuel per lb thrust they generate per hour.

Su-35 is simply out of the question. After the Russian-Ukranian war, going for any large scale Russian weapons purchases is foolhardiness and the IAF and MoD are not fools. They know what will happen, with CAATSA following. Plus, the Su-35 hasn't been a standout performer in the conflict, even lacking an AESA as we speak, which will be a guaranteed mandatory requirement for the MRFA. PESA Irbis won't cut it.

Su-57, the less we speak the better. Even Russia has a handful of units which have mostly been on the ground while the conflict has raged. Speaks volumes of it's maturity as of now. If the IAF wanted the Su-57E it would've gone ahead with the FGFA.

 

[johnj]

Not by the IAF. This has for sure come from the MoD and GoI. They have ascertained that the cost of 114 MRFA will be completely unaffordable.

Plus we have already acquired 36 Rafales. The original requirement was for 126, so that left 90. But with progress being made on Tejas Mk2 and the IAF backing it to fill in for the retirements of Jaguars, Mirage-2000Is and MiG-29UPGs, the GoI has sensibly cut down on the MRFA. Now the IAF has no choice but to put all it's efforts into making the Tejas Mk2 a success. And if they're smart enough, to start studying the possibility of an IAF version of the TEDBF.

Given that the Navy will also acquire 26 MRCBF, the two can be bundled together (something the Navy Chief had once stated was the idea) to get a sizeable number to build within the country. So, 57 MRFA + 26 MRCBF will give 83 units that could be one type built in India.

It is quite obvious that the Rafale suits all the criteria. 36 units already in service with infrastructure in place for 2 more squadrons, most strategic autonomy of all types, carrier variant available and so single assembly line can produce both IAF's MRFA and IN's MRCBF.

IAF actual requirement is for 150~180 jets, 126 plus jets. If you add 114 and 36, gives you 150 jets. IAF only want 150plus jets, and not interested in make in india or tot.
Navy requirement and IAF requirement are not same, and can't support each other unless ac under maintenance, means both infra and support and training and crew and spare and weapons and logistics and extra need separate money, in simple IN use jet in/on ships and IAF on land base.
The only advantage is iff GoI order 114 tp 180 in batches, the OEM can set up a assembly unit and spare and parts manufacturing unit in India, then IN can consider same jet. Most of us know this is hard to achieve, means IN & IAF choose jets wrt their req, and considering money, and rafale suites IAF and sh suites IN.
Before mig29k, IN used Harrier ,Hawker Sea Hawk , Alize without issue with IAF.

 

[johnj]

Not licensing cost but maintenance cost, on station cost.
Case in point is Mirage 2000 and MKI comparison

why don't you compare mig 21 and Mirage or f15/f22 with m2k.