MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[BON PLAN]

Because it doesn't exist... Just wet dreams.

A few more Rafale is the only thing possible from here ....

IAF and India political high brass will never make twice the M2000 error : too few numbers.
So I agree it's more than possible than MMRCA2 will never be inked, but India absolutely need more than 36 Rafale.
I see at least another batch of 36, so as to complete the nuclear air capacity (and more capacity as Meteor...).
From the beginning my opinion is : between 72 and 108. Not more.

 

[BON PLAN]

Su-57 is a failed aircraft. IAF has rejected it.

No. Too early to say that.
Su57 is already on a prototyp phase. Let's spend some years so as to see the final result.

 

[johnj]

@MonaLazy - thanks. Will read later


4 years to get RFI and evaluate, so far. How many years to get RFP and evaluate, choose a winner, negotiate cost? 2? 3? Then how many stages of approval before an order is put in the post to the selected OEM? 4,6,8? I get the impression that it will be 2025-2026 before a deal is signed. 1-2 years more to build assembly plant, equip, train people would mean production starting 2026-2028. IAF might get first 4G++ aircraft 2028-2030.

Given the timeline, why not dump MRFA and order loads of Tejas Mk2 and 36 more Rafale? It is not beyond the wit of man to knock out 20 Mk2 a year within 2-3 years of starting production. Possibly increase AMCA Mk1 order to 80?

Its not the fault of iaf, but our gov, still we are unable to figure out what we want.
Mmrca similar to p75i. Plus corruption fear. IAF know what they want, but what about goi, still figuring out.

 

[johnj]

If India hypothetically selects SU-35 under MMRCA tender than I am pretty confident that we will build them in India in our SU-30 MKI Production lines (ofcource we will need to modify the line accordingly to build the Jets). I would say that SU-35 probably has the 3th best chance in this tender. It's definitely better than the MiG-35 and maybe even the Gripen.

By the way I heard some one say that SU-35 is not being offered under MMRCA anymore, is this true?

May becz, su 35 don't meet iaf requirements.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Rejected it failed aircraft ?

Su-57 was rejected as it failed to prove its capabilities. Hence it is considered a failed aircraft.

By that logic Su 30 must be a super failure... well there was no logic anyway
Use the word wisely...

Their is nothing great about Su-30, only after adding India, French and Israeli sub-systems it became a formidable aircraft.
Su-30 was purchased in 1990s, situation was quite different compared to today.
In 1990s our economy was fragile, we were alone, we didn't have any indigenous alternative, scientific progress was limited. In short we were in bad place.
We didn't choose Su-30 because it was the best, we choose it because we didn't have any alternative. We did the best of our situation.
Today we have alternative, we have AMCA, international manufacturers are offering their state of art planes so why go for sub-standard product.

Design wise it's stealthier and manuverable than Rafale that we are buying.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Rafale has a RCS of about 1-1.25m^2 depending on various sources and Su-57 has a RCS of around 1m^2. With Spectra RCS of Rafale is also significantly further reduced. Lack of stealth is one of the main point why IAF rejected Su-57 so lets not get into an argument who is more stealthier Su-57 of Rafale. Rafale offers much better avionics, radar, EW Suite and engines compared to Su-57.
In modern battlefield EW capabilities are more important than maneuverability and this is where Rafale excels.

What it lack is probably better avionics and engine for now which are in testing phases and developing.

IAF was not impressed with stealth capabilities of the aircraft, engines, projected uptime, avionics, radar and substandard EW capabilities.
Everything that makes a aircraft great, Su-57 lacked; hence a failure.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

No. Too early to say that.
Su57 is already on a prototyp phase. Let's spend some years so as to see the final result.

Su-57 is in prototype stage from 2009. Not much development has been made in the project. It has been marred with delays and problems.
Russia seems to have lost interest in the project.
Russia basically wanted India to fund the project. Russians wanted to do their scientific progress, engineering progress, do trail and error test runs at India's expense with no returns to India.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Su-57 was rejected as it failed to prove its capabilities. Hence it is considered a failed aircraft.

Their is nothing great about Su-30, only after adding India, French and Israeli sub-systems it became a formidable aircraft.
Su-30 was purchased in 1990s, situation was quite different compared to today.
In 1990s our economy was fragile, we were alone, we didn't have any indigenous alternative, scientific progress was limited. In short we were in bad place.
We didn't choose Su-30 because it was the best, we choose it because we didn't have any alternative. We did the best of our situation.
Today we have alternative, we have AMCA, international manufacturers are offering their state of art planes so why go for sub-standard product.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Rafale has a RCS of about 1-1.25m^2 depending on various sources and Su-57 has a RCS of around 1m^2. With Spectra RCS of Rafale is also significantly further reduced. Lack of stealth is one of the main point why IAF rejected Su-57 so lets not get into an argument who is more stealthier Su-57 of Rafale. Rafale offers much better avionics, radar, EW Suite and engines compared to Su-57.
In modern battlefield EW capabilities are more important than maneuverability and this is where Rafale excels.

IAF was not impressed with stealth capabilities of the aircraft, engines, projected uptime, avionics, radar and substandard EW capabilities.
Everything that makes a aircraft great, Su-57 lacked; hence a failure.

I won't go much into it... Su 57 wasn't pursued because there wasn't much work share as we wanted to have for us... And it was more than decade away.


We wanted to have Rafale first since we didn't had enough funds to continue with both.

It is much more stealthier than Rafale we are buying or Chinese one... Don't bring blah blah into it .

Engine is in testing phase... And we wanted the same engine derivative for Su upgrade too.

Flanker were always the best thing available after Mig 29 and we had option of French Mirage too.

And Russian have an advanced version Su 35 too which they offered in late 2000 to us. It doesn't have Indian French avionics though.

We were supposed to codevelop it with them... You are referring for a readymade stuff which was never the intentions.

Failed i.e. it is not even a halfway decent airplane if we consider the pricepoint vs capabilities. Russia itself doesnt care enough about it, they are using it as a learning curve and going for su 75 (Quite similar to how we are using Tejas N w.r.t. TEDBF).

Dear lord...

Checkmate is single engine version... They are also making other stealthy or hypersonic jets it doesn't mean that other are failure because of that.

 

[Flying Dagger]

IAF and India political high brass will never make twice the M2000 error : too few numbers.
So I agree it's more than possible than MMRCA2 will never be inked, but India absolutely need more than 36 Rafale.
I see at least another batch of 36, so as to complete the nuclear air capacity (and more capacity as Meteor...).
From the beginning my opinion is : between 72 and 108. Not more.

That was politics not error on IAF part...

First UK LEADERS make the politician divide the order of 300 Mirage into 150 Jags plus 150 Mirage


Then Mig 29 amazed IAF but the Soviet disintegration totally screwed the plan and only 80+ were inducted.

108 Rafales is very much possible in two batches.

 

[johnj]

Fuck no, no more new Russian aircrafts in IAF. Russia as a country won't survive for long with it's present set up. We will be left in the lurch just like in the 1990's when USSR collapsed. Moreover, haven't we learnt our lesson with respect to operating Russian aircrafts? The availability of Russian aircrafts are low. Getting spare parts is a pain in the ass. Their engines are not at par with best in the world. So they need to undergo exhaustive maintenance way more frequently. They screwed us with Su-57 deal. We gave $300 million for R & D and they came up with a sub standard product. And in addition they wanted $30 billion to build 100 odd jets with no transfer of technology. Why the fuck we should prop up their declining military industrial complex?

Enough is enough, dependence on Russia is dangerous in the long term. It's better we invest that money into our own military industrial complex. Russians have milked us enough with aircraft carrier deal and with other items. Collaborating with them for missile tech like Brahmos, SFDR missiles is fine but no more dependence on them for strategic weapons like aircrafts, aircraft carriers, submarines etc.

unfortunately only russia consider to use its veto power for us, also having huge natural gas and ice, plus nuclear tech. 4 more talwar class, ak203, ka helios, s400, manpads etc.
US, EU not reliable, lca, mk1a, mk2, tedbf , amca mk1, p8i, c17, c130 etc can easily comes under sanctions, means we need russia more.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Dear lord...

Checkmate is single engine version... They are also making other stealthy or hypersonic jets it doesn't mean that other are failure because of that.

Official statements say otherwise. Checkmate is made to cover the shortcomings of su 57.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

It is much more stealthier than Rafale we are buying or Chinese one... Don't bring blah blah into it .

As per whom? Not as per IAF. IAF did reject it saying it is not stealthy.

Engine is in testing phase... And we wanted the same engine derivative for Su upgrade too.

At the end of day only results matter.

Flanker were always the best thing available after Mig 29 and we had option of French Mirage too.

In 1990s the state of India was bad enough hence flankers. in 2022 it is not the case.

And Russian have an advanced version Su 35 too which they offered in late 2000 to us. It doesn't have Indian French avionics though.

Yet it doesn't outperform MKI. Russians can offer anything but capabilities is what matter.

We were supposed to codevelop it with them... You are referring for a readymade stuff which was never the intentions.

But it were Russian intentions to develop it themself.

 

[johnj]

Offcourse... They'll keep the initial product line low and once the engine radar etc are finalised and they have budget will start inducting then to replace old jets. That's how production line matures and move with a new jet allover the world.



Rejected it failed aircraft ?

By that logic Su 30 must be a super failure... well there was no logic anyway
Use the word wisely...

Design wise it's stealthier and manuverable than Rafale that we are buying.

What it lack is probably better avionics and engine for now which are in testing phases and developing.

IAF want money to buy mmrca, fgfa tech transfer is low, our tech collaboration low, unable to access ongoing status, and place low order for lca, ioc 1sqn, foc 1 sqn. Iaf wanted 150 to 200 mmrca and only mwf match mmrca needs, and it using us engine. now 36 and mmrca for 114 total 150, plus 150~200 mwf[depends on amca].

 

[Flying Dagger]

As per whom? Not as per IAF. IAF did reject it saying it is not stealthy.

At the end of day only results matter.

In 1990s the state of India was bad enough hence flankers. in 2022 it is not the case.

Yet it doesn't outperform MKI. Russians can offer anything but capabilities is what matter.

But it were Russian intentions to develop it themself.

Flankers weren't bought because our condition was bad enough in that case Mig 29 were cheaper ... or mirage production line..

IAF rejected it due to many account .. yes it is not as stealthy as raptor doesn't mean it is less stealthy than any 4th gen like Rafale or Chinese jet . Russians wanted the jet to be more manuverable. That was a learning curve for them too and they succeeded in what they wanted.

And Su 35 outperforms MKI that's why we have been asking for Supersukhoi upgrade for long. In which planet did you made up Su 35 is inferior to mki ?

There isn't anything else to add up i guess.

 

[Concard]

unfortunately only russia consider to use its veto power for us, also having huge natural gas and ice, plus nuclear tech. 4 more talwar class, ak203, ka helios, s400, manpads etc.
US, EU not reliable, lca, mk1a, mk2, tedbf , amca mk1, p8i, c17, c130 etc can easily comes under sanctions, means we need russia more.

Nah, I am not saying cut relations with Russia. I am saying let's not depend on Russia for fighter jets, nuclear submarines and other strategic weapons.

 

[johnj]

Nah, I am not saying cut relations with Russia. I am saying let's not depend on Russia for fighter jets, nuclear submarines and other strategic weapons.

We are not, but right now we have no other options, we are working with russia in nuclear submarine tech - 5 billion for 2 sub, strategic weapons - independent, fighter jets - working on it, and take 2 or more decade, bottom line, we are trying with little success in areas excluding strategic weapons. Lca, mk1, mwf etc depends on usa engine, not so reliable nation, means russians ones is more reliable during war/after war conditions and zero restriction on usage. Chinese issue is different. We can't buy every thing france, can't replace russians with usa, until we are able to suppress russian tech, we depends on russians one way or another, unless issues b/w china & india comes to zero and remains zero.

 

[Concard]

We are not, but right now we have no other options, we are working with russia in nuclear submarine tech - 5 billion for 2 sub, strategic weapons - independent, fighter jets - working on it, and take 2 or more decade, bottom line, we are trying with little success in areas excluding strategic weapons. Lca, mk1, mwf etc depends on usa engine, not so reliable nation, means russians ones is more reliable during war/after war conditions and zero restriction on usage. Chinese issue is different. We can't buy every thing france, can't replace russians with usa, until we are able to suppress russian tech, we depends on russians one way or another, unless issues b/w china & india comes to zero and remains zero.

Russia is not offering any critical technology. If they were offering why would we import from them? As I said before collaborating with them for missile tech like Brahmos is no problem. We need slowly ween away from them in the area of strategic weapon system as they will suck our blood for decades if we are dependent on them.

 

[johnj]

Russia is not offering any critical technology. If they were offering why would we import from them? As I said before collaborating with them for missile tech like Brahmos is no problem. We need slowly ween away from them in the area of strategic weapon system as they will suck our blood for decades if we are dependent on them.

In simple- we can't becz we need them more.more than they need us, and we need them not to share critical tech to china. For your knowledge our tech/ economy/ manufacturing/ military can match usa+eu. we can live with out computers, smartphone or software/IT, but can't without Russia. A weak Russia not good for us, that why we buying from Russia and Russia is better than the rest, so question is when we stop buying from usa, eu etc, ans- when our capability suppress combined that of usa + eu, till then we depends on Russia and they milk us as long as we buy from their enemies and its mmrca thread and we are going to buy from french, a neutral one.

 

[gajapati]

We are not, but right now we have no other options, we are working with russia in nuclear submarine tech - 5 billion for 2 sub, strategic weapons - independent, fighter jets - working on it, and take 2 or more decade, bottom line, we are trying with little success in areas excluding strategic weapons. Lca, mk1, mwf etc depends on usa engine, not so reliable nation, means russians ones is more reliable during war/after war conditions and zero restriction on usage. Chinese issue is different. We can't buy every thing france, can't replace russians with usa, until we are able to suppress russian tech, we depends on russians one way or another, unless issues b/w china & india comes to zero and remains zero.

Look there are different lobbies in USA .. Just like India . Democracy is messy .. Its not like russia china ... We down to the common men understand their language ( english ) ... lobbies keep releasing statements based on likes prejudice and money . But at the end of the day i dnt think morons take the final call when it comes to geopolitics . Any adverse action against india for some reason ll result in grave consequences for global order and interest of USA . And i dont see any reason for that .. we have come a long way since our nuclear test .

There are also people questioning reliability of Russia right now as china russia get closer and china increasingly getting hostile to india . So no immediate knee jerk conclusion should be drawn based on current scenario ...

But self reliance is instrumental to security of India .. There is need to invest more in research . that much we all agree on and what ever path we take it should lead us towards that goal .

 

[Indrajit]

Russia is not offering any critical technology. If they were offering why would we import from them? As I said before collaborating with them for missile tech like Brahmos is no problem. We need slowly ween away from them in the area of strategic weapon system as they will suck our blood for decades if we are dependent on them.

Doesn’t work like that. You get missile tech like Brahmos only if you give them enough elsewhere. Not otherwise. They are not daft. Sucking blood is right but that’s not limited to the Russians. The French too are masters of the craft.

 

[BON PLAN]

Message to all the indian forumers :
Do you have some echoes about the availability of Rafale in your air force? Some comments? please share links.