Make in India - Domestic Defense Manufacturing

[Bhadra]

Kalyani has two offerings in ulh category one full titanium like m777 at 4 ton. and another a bit heavier at 6-7 ton but less titanium in this. This 6-7 ton gun should be lot cheaper if produced in numbers.

These guns won't be moved only in emergency but they will be permanently at heights. Emergency movement will only be used to reinforce weaker sections faster which is very useful in standoff like we are having now.

Please collect your thoughts...

If the guns are meant to a permanent sector specific then why mount those on Vehicles and make those MGS.... every thing has a cost..
How can one strip artillery guns from their fundamental traits - flexibility and mobility and ability to switch between sectors and theaters...

The current problem the towed artillery faces in mountains is the turning radius when towed. At many places the vehicle and towed gun can not negotiate the turns being lengthy. So the idea was to used MGS in place of towed guns... Army HQ though has issued a RFI for a small tower and bend negotiator device, I do not think hat is a satisfactory arrangement.

There is quite a lot of difference between ULH and MGS. OFB is offering MSG based on BEML left hand driven TATRAS. That may be good for deserts and plains but still a problem for mountains. But their Guns would be minimum 155/45 where as Kalyani is offering 155/39 with max range of 29 km.

In this context what CDS might have suggested to Kalyani is to mount steel ULH on 4 X 4 TATA / Layland carrier . That will result is smaller gun on smaller vehicles usable anywhere even on a class 9 road.

Overall the things have to be seen in terms of cost and economy of efforts.

 

[ARVION]

Please collect your thoughts...

If the guns are meant to a permanent sector specific then why mount those on Vehicles and make those MGS.... every thing has a cost..
How can one strip artillery guns from their fundamental traits - flexibility and mobility and ability to switch between sectors and theaters...

The current problem the towed artillery faces in mountains is the turning radius when towed. At many places the vehicle and towed gun can not negotiate the turns being lengthy. So the idea was to used MGS in place of towed guns... Army HQ though has issued a RFI for a small tower and bend negotiator device, I do not think hat is a satisfactory arrangement.

There is quite a lot of difference between ULH and MGS. OFB is offering MSG based on BEML left hand driven TATRAS. That may be good for deserts and plains but still a problem for mountains. But their Guns would be minimum 155/45 where as Kalyani is offering 155/39 with max range of 29 km.

In this context what CDS might have suggested to Kalyani is to mount steel ULH on 4 X 4 TATA / Layland carrier . That will result is smaller gun on smaller vehicles usable anywhere even on a class 9 road.

Do you have source for Kalyani ULH range, if yes kindly please shares.

 

[IndianHawk]

If the guns are meant to a permanent sector specific then why mount those on Vehicles and make those MGS.... every thing has a cost..
How can one strip artillery guns from their fundamental traits - flexibility and mobility and ability to switch between sectors and theaters...

I was talking about ulh exclusively not mgs or towed artillery. Ulh are designed for high altitude . So they will be permanently stationed in areas where no other guns can even reach. Their mobility comes from being carried by hellos in high altitude. So if required they can be moved around fast from one sector to another matter of hours.

15 Chinook can moves 75 ulh with 5 sortie each within 2 days very comfortably.

In this context what CDS might have suggested to Kalyani is to mount steel ULH on 4 X 4 TATA / Layland carrier . That will result is smaller gun on smaller vehicles usable anywhere even on a class 9 road.

Yes light MGS are too required along with ulh. And CDS suggestion is being worked out by kalyani. Let's hope army ordered it fast. But we need them all in high numbers both ulh and MGS.

But steel ULH without carrier is still very useful as at 6-7 tons it can be Carried by Chinook (11ton payload) to the hights and will be very cheap to procure compared to all titanium guns.

So both of these points have their significance.

BTW we will end up buying way more Chinook now that mountain warfare is back on army's mind .

 

[ARVION]

I was talking about ulh exclusively not mgs or towed artillery. Ulh are designed for high altitude . So they will be permanently stationed in areas where no other guns can even reach. Their mobility comes from being carried by hellos in high altitude. So if required they can be moved around fast from one sector to another matter of hours.

15 Chinook can moves 75 ulh with 5 sortie each within 2 days very comfortably.



Yes light MGS are too required along with ulh. And CDS suggestion is being worked out by kalyani. Let's hope army ordered it fast. But we need them all in high numbers both ulh and MGS.

But steel ULH without carrier is still very useful as at 6-7 tons it can be Carried by Chinook (11ton payload) to the hights and will be very cheap to procure compared to all titanium guns.

So both of these points have their significance.

BTW we will end up buying way more Chinook now that mountain warfare is back on army's mind .

Chinooks could operate five sortie's a day if required's, why everyone's underestimate the chinook's performance and capabilities dont understand.

 

[Bhadra]

I was talking about ulh exclusively not mgs or towed artillery. Ulh are designed for high altitude . So they will be permanently stationed in areas where no other guns can even reach. Their mobility comes from being carried by hellos in high altitude. So if required they can be moved around fast from one sector to another matter of hours.

15 Chinook can moves 75 ulh with 5 sortie each within 2 days very comfortably.

You mean ULH is a high altitude gn/how.... NO

ULH is light airportable and capble of being carreied by Chinooks. That means it is a gun for ;

Helliborne Operations.
Airborne operations
Amphibious operation
Quick reinforcement of a sectors any where..
Supporting operations in mountains where guns can not carried by road or where gun coming by roads will take considerable time...
Reinforcing fire support of a threatened sector...
Inter valley movements in mountains..

 

[Bhadra]

Do you have source for Kalyani ULH range, if yes kindly please shares.

Kalyani’s MArG Extended Range Ultra-Light Howitzer might just beat M-777 in its own Game – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[Bhadra]

Chinooks could operate five sortie's a day if required's, why everyone's underestimate the chinook's performance and capabilities dont understand.

Then you simply do not know Indian mountains....

 

[ARVION]

Then you simply do not know Indian mountains....

I was talking about generic not just about one terrain and environment or climatic conditioner's.

 

[Suryavanshi]

If the guns are meant to a permanent sector specific

Whos said they were permanent sector specific?

why mount those on Vehicles and make those MGS....

Mobility.

How can one strip artillery guns from their fundamental traits - flexibility and mobility and ability to switch between sectors and theaters

ULH are just about as flexible and mobile as your regular artillery, it's just that it performs exceptionally well in mountain where normal artillery tend to lag.
Titanium alloy can take way more punishment than regular steel. Between negative tundra temperature to desert of thar, they don't budge even in the slightest bit in terms of metallurgical integrity.

deserts and plains but still a problem for mountains. But their Guns would be minimum 155/45 where as Kalyani is offering 155/39 with max range of 29 km.

They offer 155/45 too

They can be mounted on trucks too.

 

[ARVION]

Whos said they were permanent sector specific?

Mobility.

ULH are just about as flexible and mobile as your regular artillery, it's just that it performs exceptionally well in mountain where normal artillery tend to lag.
Titanium alloy can take way more punishment than regular steel. Between negative tundra temperature to desert of thar, they don't budge even in the slightest bit in terms of metallurgical integrity.

They offer 155/45 too

View attachment 53148

They can be mounted on trucks too.

That why there were asked by the to be mounted on the truck's.

 

[garg_bharat]

Bharat Forge is a great company and most of its products are exported to be used in luxury cars. Bharat Forge in combination with Mahindra (both are near Pune) can be a great combination for meeting Army's howitzer needs. The test ranges are also nearby in Nasik. Hope the defence mindset changes in this country so that they can see the value of private sector.

MOD can very much designate a private company as a production agency for a particular product. All it needs is courage from politicians.

 

[Suryavanshi]

I was talking about generic not just about one terrain and environment or climatic conditioner's.

 

[Suryavanshi]

That why there were asked by the to be mounted on the truck's.

And they can be mounted on trucks
Kalyani has all sorts of gun- 3.2 ton, 4.2 ton, 4.8 ton, 6.4 ton and 13 ton.
And all of them can be mounted on trucks.

I think Baba kalayani is well aware of monkey mental gymnastics of Indina army top brass so he made all sorts of modular platform to suit the absurd requirements of the army.

I just hope they don't ask for a artillery that fires from under water.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Overall the things have to be seen in terms of cost and economy of

From the man himself.
The price might have increased now.

 

[Suryavanshi]

LIST OF INDUSTRIAL LICENCES ISSUED FOR MANUFACTURE OF ITEMS UNDER DEFENCE INDUSTRIES FROM JANUARY 2001 TO 08.03.2019

 

[ezsasa]

In the current circumstances with respect to Private Indian MIC, there is a sort of Chicken & Egg situation.
domestically designed products are being approved via trials by the military only when there is an Tender process, and if there is some deficiency found during trials the vendor has very little time to rectify while the trials are going on.

since ultimately these are engineering problems, they are solvable.

what if there is an independent govt testing agency(like CAG or CEC) dedicated for private OEM's. they can continue to refine their products thru testing all year around. the testing criteria is same as Indian military testing criteria. so even if a product fails to qualify in the tender process, certification process will ensure these equipment are qualified for other services within the country or abroad.

 

[ARVION]

In the current circumstances with respect to Private Indian MIC, there is a sort of Chicken & Egg situation.
domestically designed products are being approved via trials by the military only when there is an Tender process, and if there is some deficiency found during trials the vendor has very little time to rectify while the trials are going on.

since ultimately these are engineering problems, they are solvable.

what if there is an independent govt testing agency(like CAG or CEC) dedicated for private OEM's. they can continue to refine their products thru testing all year around. the testing criteria is same as Indian military testing criteria. so even if a product fails to qualify in the tender process, certification process will ensure these equipment are qualified for other services within the country or abroad.

I think that was proposed but dont knew what happened.

 

[Bhadra]

All the issues are being projecetd is isolated compartment..

ULH - Govt has chosen the firm who would supply it and they have chosen a firm who will make / assemble it in Indian .. Finito. Do no talk of ULH here and there.. Indian Army is not Bhanumati...

Govt Of India has sunk in enough money in creating facilities for 155/45 barrels which is being utilized to make 114 + 300 numbers of Dhanush and up gun about 300 guns of 130 caliber to 155/ 52. So I think one should stop talking about 155/45 from any other firm.. Kalyani and Soltam were not successful in up gunning project.

Govt money has also been sunk into ATAGS which has four stake holders - DRDO, OFB, TATA and Kalyani... That is stuck.. let us see the camel..

100 X Vajra K9 by Larsen and tubro have been delivered....
What remains... 80 more to make it nine Regts.

about 900 X 155/52 towed artillery (provided DRDO and OFB lets it slip out of hand)
About 830 MGS - here also OFB is tom toming its gun mounted on TATRA.
About 80 more SPG to make it to nine Regts - clearly L&T
About 100 SP wheeled ... Kalyani or any one can try it..

Indegeniousation of Indian 155mm artillery is the single largest successful programme so far where even the lame ducks like OFB are running in competition... There indeed is stiff competition..

So that is what is all for taking..... Jisko Jitna Chahiye Kat Kat le jai...

 

[Bhadra]

From the man himself.
The price might have increased now.

View attachment 53150

mens between 15 - 17 crores..
Dhanush is 12 -12 crores and even can be less in competition...
OFB may offer their 155/52 for that price...
So nothing great bhai...

Only ATAGS is about 25 Crores... ATAGS seems to be outgunned in many aspects..

 

[Suryavanshi]

mens between 15 - 17 crores..
Dhanush is 12 -12 crores and even can be less in competition...
OFB may offer their 155/52 for that price...

Sir is price the issue?
Steel artillery and Titanium alloy artillery will most likley have different tenders. They aren't each other's Competition, ULHs price is justified.