Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[sayareakd]

you guys are posting my scan.

 

[p2prada]

Nah, Penetrator is shorter, it more resassembles M829 or DM13/DM33 in lenght. Find different APFSDS rounds photos and compare sabots, the longer rounds have longer sabots.

I guess so. I pictured an ~2Kg Sabot in my estimate. But without equivalent test data or official words, it is impossible to estimate anything with a concrete conclusion. But it seems like we are a decade behind the west's decade old weapons. That's 20 years. Sounds reasonable.

This is a bit overestimaed about Pakistani forces, the only really good tanks they have are ~320 T-80UD's, Al Khalid is just Chinese tank made on licence, and belive me, Chinese designers also don't have even a smallest clue how properly design a tank.

The Al Khalid seems to have decent inputs from Ukraine. That's what makes this tank rather deadly. Sure, maybe not upto the mark of a T-90 or a T-80UD, but good enough to face off against our other tanks. The Chinese designs are not of any particular interest. Hell, they could not sell their designs to Pakistan let alone champion Russia.

Well, I partially agree, however in US problem with new tanks is just strictly political and financial.

What applies for tanks, applies for aircraft as well. Politics is a determining factor and I am glad it wasn't forced on the Army's decision of going for T-90s instead of Arjuns.

You sure? L30 120mm rifled gun is an L55 long, how long is Arjun gun? From what I see it have nothing common with L11 and L30 series. Besides this L11 and L30 guns fires two piece ammo... well in reality it is even three piece ammunition, Arjun gun use one piece ammo.

It's not an exact copy. But we do use older designs to base our designs. For eg: We had access to the L-7 in both the Centurion tanks as well as the Vickers which we made in India in 1965 under the name of Vijayanta. The L-11 details were also available to India as there were rumours of us having tested the Cheftain. So, we had more information on rifled guns rather than smoothbores. Even our T-55s had rifled guns like the D-10. We merely capitalized on this.

We may have used the rifle design, breech mechanism etc from the British guns and designed a 52Cal gun of our own. Something between the L-7 and L-11A5. I don't believe the Soviets would have given us any major technology on the D-10 for us to have used it.

Really? No RH-M-120/L44-L55 and other guns from it's family (US, Israeli, South Korean, Japanese)? And French CN120-26/L52?

Why would they give those to us? As it stands unless we make major buys of western tanks at bloated rates, it does not seem wise for them to deliver to us technology that may end up being used in the international market for any tank designs we may come up in the future which we are currently in the process of.

Who knows, we may possibly come up with the first 4th gen design. A L-55 type gun on this design would be bad for western markets. Heck we may end up selling our tanks to them in 10 to 20 years. That would be funny and is obviously hypothetical. But the fact is unless we buy some 500 Leclercs or Leopards, there is no apparent reason for them to hand over gun tech. This includes Israel.

The Russians delivered their gun only because we have had a lot of time on the 2A46, they designed a new gun(2A86) and we paid good money for 1700 tanks. Heck even they took quite some time to deliver after all this. The gun tech ended up coming in 2008 instead of 2005 or 2006 as expected before.

Actually they made many more design mistakes than Indian engeneeres.

We can talk about that in another thread.

 

[p2prada]

Oh!!p2p!!you again!!By the way,how did you know that Arjun's armor is weak??Care to elaborate......................................................Mr armchair general??

Oh! Blood.

BTW, how do you know that Arjun's armour is strong? :3

Mr Troll.

Go post elsewhere. Go to facebook or something, they may have some fanboy communities where you can unanimously agree to Arjun being a secret autobot transformer. You can even have photochopppppped super Arjuns with your name on it. Heck you can start your own community.

If you want to learn about real life tanks, then stick on and shut up.

 

[p2prada]

Oh, greate:

This have about 500-580mm RHA for 2000m. Like all IMI clones...
It's 1985' level.

Yeah. These are actual IMI shells and not clones. I even gave you a link where we have signed a contract for some 45000 Mk1 shells.

btw: In new T-90M you have 724mm long places in auto. For a new russian APFSDS. Think why...

Yea. Actually I heard it was 740mm. Anyway are the 3BM42(44) enough for the Ukranian T-80UDs? or are we going to need the new Russian rounds?

 

[militarysta]

The Al Khalid seems to have decent inputs from Ukraine. That's what makes this tank rather deadly. Sure, maybe not upto the mark of a T-90 or a T-80UD, but good enough to face off against our other tanks. The Chinese designs are not of any particular interest. Hell, they could not sell their designs to Pakistan let alone champion Russia.

Al Khalid is shitty. Like other Chineese copy tank. Of course Ukrainian engine is very good, arment and FCS - too, even hull is not so bad. But turret - chineese style, with chineese "we don't care about crew" idea:



And "brillant" amo:

Erly 80' level.

 

[Damian]

The Al Khalid seems to have decent inputs from Ukraine. That's what makes this tank rather deadly. Sure, maybe not upto the mark of a T-90 or a T-80UD, but good enough to face off against our other tanks. The Chinese designs are not of any particular interest. Hell, they could not sell their designs to Pakistan let alone champion Russia.

Agree that Al Khalid can be better (and most probably it is) than T-72M1's or older tanks.

It's not an exact copy. But we do use older designs to base our designs. For eg: We had access to the L-7 in both the Centurion tanks as well as the Vickers which we made in India in 1965 under the name of Vijayanta. The L-11 details were also available to India as there were rumours of us having tested the Cheftain. So, we had more information on rifled guns rather than smoothbores. Even our T-55s had rifled guns like the D-10. We merely capitalized on this.

We may have used the rifle design, breech mechanism etc from the British guns and designed a 52Cal gun of our own. Something between the L-7 and L-11A5. I don't believe the Soviets would have given us any major technology on the D-10 for us to have used it.

Interesting. BTW How long is Arjun gun barrel? L52? And what is official alfanumeric designation name of that gun?

 

[p2prada]

My, favorite Forum is alive as I see - good

@Blood
8kg for sabot + rod (penetrator)
or
8kg for rod (penetrator)

It's big difference.

No. The 120mm ammo has 6.8Kg projectile. Penetrator is less than 5Kg. Even if there is a new shell with 8Kg, expect it to be the entire projectile.

As You can see - Indian 120mm AFSDS have smaller L-D ratio. Rather like in DM-33 or at best variant like in M829.

Yes. Damian's post earlier made sense. We are at least 2 decades behind.

 

[militarysta]

Yea. Actually I heard it was 740mm.

Sorry -my mistake: ""длинные" БПС (L=740мм и больше)" So - 740mm

Anyway are the 3BM42(44) enough for the Ukranian T-80UDs? or are we going to need the new Russian rounds?

3BM42M (3BM44M):
~630mm RHA P0
~510mm RHA P2500

P0- 0 m
P2500 - 2500m

Of course India need new, and better ammo. T-80U is very, very well armored.

 

[p2prada]

@Damian,in 2004 the new version of Kanchan composite armor was tested defeated ARDE Mk2 rounds from a 2A46M3 L/52 gun from few hundred meters away.Now obviously they are not close to DM 63 because simply the carousel can't hold such a long round.That's why I told that the lanchan is strong enough.Heck,it even defeated Korndt atgms.

All wrong info. The rounds, maybe. But the gun is wrong. All sources indicate the T-72's 2A46 (Maple series) guns was used and not 2A46M-2 even as far back as 2004.

Heck I have never even heard about a 2A46M3. Only 2A46M2 and 2A46M5 are used on T-90. The only difference between the 2 guns is a modified gun stabilization on 2A46M5.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians built the 2A46M3 for their T-80s failed at some point and built the 2A46M4 instead keeping the M3 as a Tech demonstrator. But why will we have it unless you are being a naive source of misinformation.

None of this is verified even remotely officially at the very least. It is obvious you got this from some random source from the internet, at least post that. Googling 2A46M3 with Kanchan I got only some guy from another defence forum and a lot of Chinese sites.

Now, googling the same will bring DFI in the same page as well.

 

[Damian]

Militarysta, look at Your GG, I send You some messages.

All wrong info. The rounds, maybe. But the gun is wrong. All sources indicate the T-72's 2A46 (Maple series) guns was used and not 2A46M-2 even as far back as 2004.

Heck I have never even heard about a 2A46M3. Only 2A46M2 and 2A46M5 are used on T-90. The only difference between the 2 guns is a modified gun stabilization on 2A46M5.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians built the 2A46M3 for their T-80s failed at some point and built the 2A46M4 instead keeping the M3 as a Tech demonstrator. But why will we have it unless you are being a naive source of misinformation.

None of this is verified even remotely officially at the very least. It is obvious you got this from some random source from the internet, at least post that. Googling 2A46M3 with Kanchan I got only some guy from another defence forum and a lot of Chinese sites.

Now, googling the same will bring DFI in the same page as well.

More important than gun is ammunition used in these tests. And someone did comparabale tests with T-90's?

 

[p2prada]

Interesting. BTW How long is Arjun gun barrel? L52? And what is official alfanumeric designation name of that gun?

The gun is actually 50 cal. It is 6050mm in length and weighs 2025kg. The designation is unknown. We just call it Arjun's gun or ARDE gun. Its power is a little better than L-44 but worse than L-55 or the 2A46M2. Barrel life is 500EFC.

 

[Damian]

Interesting, only 500EFC?

M256/L44 gun barrel life is 1500EFC, breach service life is 4500 rounds.

M256 120mm Smoothbore Gun

 

[p2prada]

More important than gun is ammunition used in these tests. And someone did comparabale tests with T-90's?

Sources indicate it was the IMI Mk2 125mm using the 2A46. Any tests on T-90 are not available for public knowledge.

 

[Damian]

It is interesting, they says many things about Arjun armor tests but T-90 tests are classified... wht they affraid of? That T-90 will have comparabale or better protection?

 

[p2prada]

Interesting, only 500EFC?

M256/L44 gun barrel life is 1500EFC, breach service life is 4500 rounds.

M256 120mm Smoothbore Gun

Yes. The 2A46M2 is also at 1500 EFC. Even the old 2A46 was increased from 250 EFC to 800EFC using new manufacturing techniques in India. The heat from rifling is not good for barrel life.

Breach service life is unknown.

 

[p2prada]

It is interesting, they says many things about Arjun armor tests but T-90 tests are classified... wht they affraid of? That T-90 will have comparabale or better protection?

Not exactly. The army tests the T-90 and they keep quiet. DRDO tests on Arjun and announce it on loud speaker.

 

[Damian]

So this is some sort of political pressure on goverment from DRDO?

 

[sayareakd]

It is interesting, they says many things about Arjun armor tests but T-90 tests are classified... wht they affraid of? That T-90 will have comparabale or better protection?

Official secrets Act.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Secrets_Act_(India)

 

[bengalraider]

Not exactly. The army tests the T-90 and they keep quiet. DRDO tests on Arjun and announce it on loud speaker.

Exactly my guess is that being a primarily scientific and research enterprise DRDO has some more leeway than the army when it comes to making statements.

 

[p2prada]

So this is some sort of political pressure on goverment from DRDO?

Yes. There is a lot of pressure from DRDO on MoD. They want to sell 500 tanks to the army while army does not want the Arjun. They want a new tank after 2020. Plenty of pressure from media criticizing the army's decision for rejecting Arjun. It is falsely believed the Arjun is equal to western tanks and better than T-90. Army had no civilian support until I came along.

I am typing using my mobile or I could have said more.