Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

Daredevil

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Damian,

There was Arjun Vs T-90 trial by Indian Army (which was not in favour of Arjun initially) to determine which came out trumps. Here is a report by Ajai Shukla an ex-tanker himself.

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90

India's home-built Arjun tank has emerged a conclusive winner from its showdown with the Russian T-90. A week of comparative trials, conducted by the army at the Mahajan Ranges, near Bikaner in Rajasthan, has ended; the results are still officially secret. But Business Standard has learned from multiple sources who were involved in the trials that the Arjun tank has outperformed the T-90 on every crucial parameter.


The trial pitted one squadron (14 tanks) of Arjuns against an equal number of T-90s. Each squadron was given three tactical tasks; each involved driving across 50 kilometers of desert terrain and then shooting at a set of targets. Each tank had to fire at least ten rounds, stationary and on the move, with each hit being carefully logged. In total, each tank drove 150 kilometres and fired between 30-50 rounds. The trials also checked the tanks' ability to drive through a water channel 5-6 feet deep.


The Arjun tanks, the observers all agreed, performed superbly. Whether driving cross-country over rugged sand-dunes; detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets; or accurately hitting targets, both stationery and moving, with pinpoint gunnery; the Arjun demonstrated a clear superiority over the vaunted T-90.


"The Arjun could have performed even better, had it been operated by experienced crewmen", says an officer who has worked on the Arjun. "As the army's tank regiments gather experience on the Arjun, they will learn to exploit its capabilities."


With the trial report still being compiled --- it is expected to reach Army Headquarters after a fortnight --- neither the army, nor the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), which developed the Arjun tank in Chennai at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), are willing to comment officially about the trials.


The importance of this comparative trial can be gauged from a list of those who attended. Witnessing the Arjun in action were most of the army's senior tank generals, including the Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj; strike corps commander, Lt Gen Anil Chait; Army Commander South, Lt Gen Pradeep Khanna; and Deputy Chief of the Army Staff, Lt Gen JP Singh. The Director General of Military Operations, Lt Gen AS Sekhon also attended the trials.


Over the last four months, the army had systematically signalled that it did not want to buy more Arjuns. The message from senior officers was: 124 Arjun tanks have been bought already; no more would be ordered for the army's fleet of 4000 tanks. The comparative trial, or so went the message, was merely to evaluate what operational role could be given to the army's handful of Arjuns.


"The senior officers who attended the trials were taken aback by the Arjun's strong performance", an army officer who was present through the trials frankly stated. "But they were also pleased that the Arjun had finally come of age."


The army's Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which has bitterly opposed buying more Arjuns, will now find it difficult to sustain that opposition. In keeping out the Arjun, the DGMF has opted to retain the already obsolescent T-72 tank in service for another two decades, spending thousands of crores in upgrading its vintage systems.


Now, confronted with the Arjun's demonstrated capability, the army will face growing pressure to order more Arjuns.


The current order of 124 Arjuns is equipping the army's 140 Armoured Brigade in Jaisalmer. With that order almost completed, the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, near Chennai, needs more orders urgently. The Rs 50 crore facility can churn out 50 Arjuns annually. That would allow for the addition of close to one Arjun regiment each year (a regiment is authorised 62 tanks).


Tank experts point out that conducting trials only in Mahajan does not square with the army's assertion that they are evaluating a role for the Arjun. Says Major General HM Singh, who oversaw the Arjun's development for decades, "If they were evaluating where the Arjun should be deployed, they should have conducted the trials in different types of terrain: desert, semi-desert, plains and riverine. It seems as if the army has already decided to employ the Arjun in the desert."


The Arjun's sterling performance in the desert raises another far-reaching question: should the Arjun --- with its proven mobility, firepower and armour protection --- be restricted to a defensive role or should it equip the army's strike corps for performing a tank's most devastating (and glamorous) role: attacking deep into enemy territory during war? Each strike corps has 8-9 tank regiments. If the army recommends the Arjun for a strike role, that would mean an additional order of about 500 Arjuns.


But Business Standard has learned that senior officers are hesitant to induct the Arjun into strike corps. Sources say that the Arjun will be kept out of strike formations on the grounds that it is incompatible with other strike corps equipment, e.g. assault bridges that cannot bear the 60-tonne weight of the Arjun.

Also a comparison of Arjun with other Tanks of the world.

 

Damian

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Again,what else can be expected from an armchair general like you who pretends to know every thing but knows nothing.
Yes of course my master, but You knows everything, and You perfectly use insults to other people without any arguments backed up by logic.

Yes my master I humbly admits that You are master of insults. :)

For instant,the Rheinmetal L/55 smoothbore gun has a mussel velocity of 1750 meter/sec with DM 53 rounds and 1650 meter/sec with DM 63 rounds.On the other hand the ARDE L/52 rifled gun has a mussel velocity of 1700 meter/sec with rod weight of 8 kg at only 600 mpa bore pressure as per official website.So it can be very easily seen that the performance of the ARDE L/52 rifled is slightly(read very very)inferior to the german L/55 smoothbore which is even longer.
Ahhh, yes, so explain me why M829A2 with muzzle velocity of 1,680 m/s have smaller penetration capability than M829A3 with 1,555 m/s muzzle velocity?

Why? Why my master, please explain me, please oh enlightened one!

So how the indian gun becomes 'crap'??Oh wait!I know,I know....because it's Indian!Simple!!
No, not because it is Indian, stop this nationalistic crap You moron. I hate racists.

@Daredevil, sorry, these informations are.. well they smell fishy, I do not belive them. And that comparrision table... how the hell heavier tank like Arjun with weaker engine is more mobile on road than Leclerc? This is complete BS.

Or that "integrated stabilized sight system" and "Computer Based fire control system"... all modern FCS systems are computer based... who made that table? A child?
 
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militarysta

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Yeah,I don't have the rod length,it's classified.That's why I don't speculate things like you do.[/qutoe]

Does anyone have a photo Indian "crown" ammunition? (this part after schooting)


But again,why comparing the rounds?
Damian explained that.

In the AUCRT trials in 2008 the gun was tested with 1000 firings with not a single incident of barrel burst.That should answer the longivity of the gun barrel.
BS...
longivity depends on the type of ammunition...
ex:for Rh120 L-55 is:
DM53 ~150
DM63 ~400-600
HEAT: 700-1200
traning - >1400

It has a mussel velocity comparable to a longer barreled smoothbore gun,which proves the 'rifle gun having less energy and velocity than a smoothbore gun' to be a 'myth'.So,I proved my point that the rifled gun on Arjun is contemporary.
Without good APFSDS?
Forget.
 

militarysta

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So how the indian gun becomes 'crap'??Oh wait!I know,I know....because it's Indian!Simple!!
the word "fatal" was in the context of the large width of the mask and the associated with it complications, end yes - mantle in Ajrun Mk.I is huge. Because of this "wonderful" gun.
 

p2prada

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People open your eyes and look at the big picture. Your ideals are detrimental to our military and our country. The Arjun isn't even close to a good tank. It is just a project to get us started. Wake up to that reality. Even Lt Gen Bharadwaj said the same. The Arjun is a good tank but not yet a great tank and this was only a public statement.

The Arjun gun is obsolete. The Armour is weak. The technology used in near obsolescence, both materials and electronics. The Arjun Mk2 will fare a great deal better than the Mk1, but the simple reality is if we induct the Arjun in large numbers instead of the T-90s then Pakistan will have a superior armour force compared to Indian Army in technology, capability as well as reliability. That is the simple truth of the matter.

The success of a tank design is even lesser than an aircraft design. It is really hard to make a successful design and requires years of proving before it can be called a great tank. There is the F-15, F-16, F-18 and F-14 but only 1 Abrams over the same duration of time. All the Teens are being replaced with Raptors and Lightnings, but there is still only 1 Abrams and will continue to be so for quite some time.

These guys, Damian and Militarysta, are giving you a very decent picture of where the Arjun stands in the entire scheme of things. They are not even your own countrymen. Give them the respect they deserve and see this as a good learning experience so you can make a better judgement of where our military stands today and also tomorrow. I have learnt a lot and I am sure you will too. If you want to discuss then do so with maturity instead of lame azz name calling and hubris.

At people discussing Arjun's gun and ammo. We ripped of the Rifled L-30 and applied our own design to the same. That's all there is to it. It wasn't some golden chalice we found by accident. The gun was made according to specs and it worked. It's a whole different point that it is currently obsolete. The army has been tried to get rid of Arjun and even came close in the early 90s. After 1985 no new requirement changes were made until Arjun Mk2 and even those are just to complete the tank project. So, smoothbore gun wasn't a requirement as that would delay the project by another decade. We don't have access to any 120mm smoothbore guns from anywhere, not even Israel. The ammo may be ripped off from older designs of western projectiles. Sure it may be a long rod, but it does not mean the same capability as the western designs. The Army wants smoothbore guns and you will know soon enough by this year once FMBT requirements are out.

When we are happy to openly ridicule the Chinese inventions, we forget that we are in the same boat as they are. Even the Chinese have built a tank of their own and are still standardizing on older Russian T-"Type" ripoffs.
 

p2prada

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Found this picture from BR. Hope it helps;



Not sure if it is official though. So, not sure if dimensions match the real tank. No actual diagrams released AFAIK.

Also, found some other details of ammo;


Nothing much is known about the ammo though. Weight, length and diameter of penetrator is unknown. I am expecting a 4.8 to 5Kg penetrator. Looking at the size of the shell, at 944mm. If we give 70% to the penetrator then that would make it at least 650mm. Compares favourably with western projectiles in dimensions. Propellant details cannot be estimated. Bursting charge could be 0.15-0.2Kg. Make note that except for the 944mm figure all other figures are estimates by me done by looking at other figures in the brochure.
 

Damian

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Nothing much is known about the ammo though. Weight, length and diameter of penetrator is unknown. I am expecting a 4.8 to 5Kg penetrator. Looking at the size of the shell, at 944mm. If we give 70% to the penetrator then that would make it at least 650mm. Compares favourably with western projectiles in dimensions. Propellant details cannot be estimated. Bursting charge could be 0.15-0.2Kg. Make note that except for the 944mm figure all other figures are estimates by me done by looking at other figures in the brochure.
Nah, Penetrator is shorter, it more resassembles M829 or DM13/DM33 in lenght. Find different APFSDS rounds photos and compare sabots, the longer rounds have longer sabots.

but the simple reality is if we induct the Arjun in large numbers instead of the T-90s then Pakistan will have a superior armour force compared to Indian Army in technology, capability as well as reliability.
This is a bit overestimaed about Pakistani forces, the only really good tanks they have are ~320 T-80UD's, Al Khalid is just Chinese tank made on licence, and belive me, Chinese designers also don't have even a smallest clue how properly design a tank.

The success of a tank design is even lesser than an aircraft design. It is really hard to make a successful design and requires years of proving before it can be called a great tank. There is the F-15, F-16, F-18 and F-14 but only 1 Abrams over the same duration of time. All the Teens are being replaced with Raptors and Lightnings, but there is still only 1 Abrams and will continue to be so for quite some time.
Well, I partially agree, however in US problem with new tanks is just strictly political and financial. I have a photos and at least one document about the MBT Block III vel M1A3 prototypes and tch demonstrators, Yanks had ideas way ahead of times when these vehicls were made, the only comparabale countries at that time were Germany and Soviet Union, and still even if these designs were not fielded, gathered data and experience will be usefull in future.

We ripped of the Rifled L-30 and applied our own design to the same.
You sure? L30 120mm rifled gun is an L55 long, how long is Arjun gun? From what I see it have nothing common with L11 and L30 series. Besides this L11 and L30 guns fires two piece ammo... well in reality it is even three piece ammunition, Arjun gun use one piece ammo.

We don't have access to any 120mm smoothbore guns from anywhere, not even Israel.
Really? No RH-M-120/L44-L55 and other guns from it's family (US, Israeli, South Korean, Japanese)? And French CN120-26/L52?

When we are happy to openly ridicule the Chinese inventions, we forget that we are in the same boat as they are. Even the Chinese have built a tank of their own and are still standardizing on older Russian T-"Type" ripoffs.
Actually they made many more design mistakes than Indian engeneeres.
 

Blood+

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Oh!!p2p!!you again!!By the way,how did you know that Arjun's armor is weak??Care to elaborate......................................................Mr armchair general??
 

sayareakd

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Oh!!p2p!!you again!!By the way,how did you know that Arjun's armor is weak??Care to elaborate......................................................Mr armchair general??
may be he has examine it................ why you think in negative manner, BTW i did some examining Arjun tank and found it worth it.
 

Damian

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How do You know that Arjun armor is strong by current standards? ;)

What ammunition types were used when armor was tested, I wan't to know their designation names, then we can say if it was indeed tested against modern ammunition, and I say modern, this means something comparabale to DM53/63 or M829A2, M829A3, rest types of ammunition are just outdated, far from mentioned rounds capabilities.
 

Damian

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BTW, all modern MBT's from west don't use heavy ERA, because their armor don't need so support, why Arjun suddenly needs heavy ERA?

I would think about that, Russians and Ukrainins need ERA because it is light and effective and cheap, and they have restrictive weight limitations, so they can't use really thick armor with heavy metal alloy modules.
 

sayareakd

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BTW, all modern MBT's from west don't use heavy ERA, because their armor don't need so support, why Arjun suddenly needs heavy ERA?
our problem is that when Arjun MK-I didnt had ERA people complaint, it does not have ERA, how it is going to have ERA,

People still complain about it :frusty::frusty::frusty:
 

Damian

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Didn't Arjun Mk2 and later upgraded Arjun Mk1's will have ERA?

ERA is actually good idea when You need weight limitations, because ERA is light, effective and cheap.
 

Damian

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It would definetly improve top protection, however there also disadvantages of such solution.
 

Damian

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Sure, but it also depends what ERA You will use. In fact if I would Indian MoD, I would buy Ukrainian Knife ERA, it have some nice features don't present in more classic ERA.
 

Blood+

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@Damian,in 2004 the new version of Kanchan composite armor was tested defeated ARDE Mk2 rounds from a 2A46M3 L/52 gun from few hundred meters away.Now obviously they are not close to DM 63 because simply the carousel can't hold such a long round.That's why I told that the lanchan is strong enough.Heck,it even defeated Korndt atgms.
 

militarysta

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My, favorite Forum is alive as I see :) - good :)

@Blood
the ARDE L/52 rifled gun has a mussel velocity of 1700 meter/sec with rod weight of 8 kg at only 600 mpa bore pressure as per official website.
8kg for sabot + rod (penetrator)
or
8kg for rod (penetrator)

It's big difference.

By the way,how did you know that Arjun's armor is weak??
Becouse Ajrun Mk.I have enormous, impossible to shield, weak areas. In other tanks there is no such thing. Even old Leo2A4 have smaller and better protected weak areas.

@p2prada

please compare this:


Germany:



USA:



India:





As You can see - Indian 120mm AFSDS have smaller L-D ratio. Rather like in DM-33 or at best variant like in M829.
Even if the pressure in the chamber is bigger performance will not be great.
Rather like in Dm-33 or M829 (470-550mm RHA for 2000m) - per analogy to other known projectiles.

It's to little to kill T-80UD "face to face"
 

militarysta

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@Damian,in 2004 the new version of Kanchan composite armor was tested defeated ARDE Mk2 rounds from a 2A46M3 L/52 gun from few hundred meters away.Now obviously they are not close to DM 63 because simply the carousel can't hold such a long round.That's why I told that the lanchan is strong enough.Heck,it even defeated Korndt atgms.
Oh, greate:




This have about 500-580mm RHA for 2000m. Like all IMI clones...
It's 1985' level.

btw: In new T-90M you have 724mm long places in auto. For a new russian APFSDS. Think why...
 

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