Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[sayareakd]

Please understand that Arjun tank is made as per GSQR and our tank doctrine, keeping in mind our future enemies and area of operation. Dont expect the tank to put on transport plane and ship across globe to fight in some other country or region.

hope it clears this. BTW for your info arjun tank was found to be better in the tank contest with T90S, not to forget whole host of things which where use to favor Russian T series tank including heavy Votka.

Thanks for your contribution here (this is T90 thread).

 

[militarysta]

What the fu**ing hell!!It seems I was right,I am indeed talking to a 10 year old silly kid.Ok,listen kiddo,the ARDE L/52 gun has a mussel velocity of 1700meter/sec at only 600 mpa bore pressure though the gun can withstand 900 mpa.So it is slightly inferior to the Rheinmettal L/55 smoothbore which has a mussel velocity of 1750 meter/sec.Besides, Arjun uses FSAPDS T rounds and not HESH rounds in anti tank role.The specs:
round weight-22 kg
rod weight-8 kg
round length-990mm.This comparable to most modern FSAPDS T rounds(offcourse except the Rheinmettal DM 63).
First get your facts clear kiddo and then we can have a conversation.

Second - are you Ok? Have you any idea about what are you talking?

o the Rheinmettal L/55 smoothbore which has a mussel velocity of 1750 meter/sec

For DM53LKEII is between 1550-1750 (depends on the temperature of the cartridge)
for DM63 is 1600-1650.

role.The specs:
round weight-22 kg
rod weight-8 kg
round length-990mm

What is "rod" (penetrator" lenght? It's most important.

This comparable to most modern FSAPDS T rounds(offcourse except the Rheinmettal DM 63).

In Your wet dream - maybe...

"muzzel velocity" no evidence of performance - slower M829A3 have better performance then mucht faster DM53 LKEII.

 

[Blood+]

Oh yes, I do not designed tank, but I'am educating my self about all tank designs, because I want to write about them, and I'm not hiding a fact that I'am not tank designers.

On the other hand I use arguments, I analise designs, I at least try to use proofs.

What are You using? Insults? Rage because someone have different opinion.

You are nothing more than a stupid teenager (mentaly, I don't care how old phisically You are).

Once again I ask moderators to do something with that person, he is doing nothing more than trolling.



Yeah, we see Your "knowledge" everywhere oh allmighty!

comparing a 80's era tank with a 2008 tank.Good,as I said,what else can be expected??How do you know that from then the armor technology of India has not been improved?Do you even know what components used?Have you ever been in that tank?Have you seen the gun performing?No....a big NO.Yet you claim that india's material tech is crap,gun is crap,uses HESH ammo in anti tank role,Arjun does not have electronic systems blah blah.The list just go on and on.All I see in your post is some assumption of your own mind and no fact.Especially regarding the gun.The ARDE L/52 rifled gun has almost the same mussel velocity of the super duper Rheinmettal L/55 smoothbore,it can withstand tremendous borepressure yet it's a 'crap' only because it came from India.

 

[Daredevil]

[hl]Blood, if you think other poster is wrong with his assumptions, please go ahead and quash their arguments with data and sources or you can refrain from discussion here. And no need to call others kids and insult members. All here are mature people and we expect mature discussion from you as well[/hl]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

And yes, gun is fatal because it is outdated technology, 99,99% of all MBT's are using smoothbore guns.

outdated HESH are used or designed for smoothbore guns.

And yes, Arjun is IIIrd generation MBT on their early 80's level, not on XXI century level.

Damian,
Why it is outdated, coz of rifled bore ?

As long as shells hits the target dead on, it is good !

And Hesh is good than HE considering the tech was available to us..

Hesh works better on Bunkers as well as infantry in open..


And what with the early 80s ?, Deign is per IA needs, 35-30cm gap is no joke, I assume their is more to that, It just no pic are their..

Electronics was updated as per 2008 Israeli Merkava3 standered..

Armour was improved throughout time, Not to mention we have we had help from both Russia and Germany and we improved it..

So does tested it against the Armour module..

I dont have to repeat IMI AP was defeated at point blank range ( -50m )..

And we have gone through this all..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Blood,

D & M both are good in Studying tanks, If you wish to question be polite, One cannot answer when hit the dead end..

 

[militarysta]

Deign is per IA needs, 35-30cm gap is no joke, I assume their is more to that, It just no pic are their..

No gap.
Mask is 114cm. You have obvious space on both sides mantle. All gives ~120-130cm. This is "weak" point like in all others tanks. But in western tank this "weak area" is 85-91cm. That means gun i Ajrun "spent" extra 30-35cm through its technical. And so much has to be wider turret then other tanks.

ps.have someone India 120mm APFSDS photos? I'll be grateful

 

[Blood+]

Second - are you Ok? Have you any idea about what are you talking?

For DM53LKEII is between 1550-1750 (depends on the temperature of the cartridge)
for DM63 is 1600-1650.

What is "rod" (penetrator" lenght? It's most important.


In Your wet dream - maybe...

"muzzel velocity" no evidence of performance - slower M829A3 have better performance then mucht faster DM53 LKEII.

Yeah,I meant to say penetrator by rod.I did not mention the length because it is not mentioned in the ofb website and I don't like to speculate.
Why are you comparing the M829A3,du round with the DM53 a tungsten round??Everybody knows the du rounds usually have greater penetration due to more density and less deformation of the nose upon impact than Tu rounds.
Besides,I compared the mussel velocity to show that the so called 'crappy' rifled gun of Arjun is no way inferior to a large extent to the so called great Rheinmettal L/55 smoothbore.Yeah,the rounds may be inferior and I am not denying that.But that was never the subject of discussion.It was the guns and that's why I compared the mussel velocity of both guns.

 

[militarysta]

I did not mention the length because it is not mentioned in the ofb website and I don't like to speculate.

So, You have nothing important about this ammo.

Everybody knows the du rounds usually have greater penetration due to more density and less deformation of the nose upon impact than Tu rounds.

Old myth. New Israeli and German ammo have difrent TU rods with self-sharpening abilities. This is result od years of testing long rods in Switzerland and Germany. But as I suspected - You don't know about that...

I compared the mussel velocity to show that the so called 'crappy' rifled gun of Arjun is no way inferior

muzzle vel. is only one of many many factors. Life time, strain ability, propagation of temperature in barrel, etc.

btw: according to You thinking:
this: http://tatanano.inservices.tatamotors.com/tatamotors/images/gallery/images/cam1b_colors_yellow.jpg
"is no way inferior" for this:
http://www.dayton.org.pl/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/BMW-M3.jpg

bacouse both of them have 4 wheel, engine, doors, lights, seats, etc

Do you notice how stupid is this thinking?

 

[Rahul Singh]

including the fatal gun,

I had never heard such comment about Arjun Gun being FATAL or OBSOLETE (as said by you later). In fact Army which did asked for hell lot of changes during entire development period did not ever asked for Gun to shift from recoiled to smooth-bore, even when they asked designers to shift from 105 mm to 120mm and i think they were right. Arjun scores over T-90S in accuracy and range (an advantage Recoiled Gun still has over smooth-bore) as well as first hit probability. And yes, since it is recoiled, it has lower muzzle velocity and uses less variety of shells but that does not stop it from being a killer in its assigned Hunter-Killer role. As long as Army doesn't asks there is absolutely no need to change the gun or even raise figure on its effectiveness and lethality.

 

[Damian]

Damian,
Why it is outdated, coz of rifled bore ?

As long as shells hits the target dead on, it is good !

And Hesh is good than HE considering the tech was available to us..

Hesh works better on Bunkers as well as infantry in open..

Rifling makes that tank gun have less life time, it is bad for APFSDS (smoothbore APFSDS have simple Sabot, rifled guns need complicated sabot designs), You can't use simple HEAT (another complicated design).

HESH is outdated, there are more as effective or even better ammunitions for anti structural and anti infantry or non armored targets, like M908 HE-OR, or IMI Kalanit programmabale HE ammunition, German DM11 with also programmabale fuze, M830A1 MPAT, or new US AMP round that is currently under development.

And what with the early 80s ?

This means that Arjun is on early 80's NATO 3rd generation MBT's level, while these NATO designs are currently on XXI century level.

Electronics was updated as per 2008 Israeli Merkava3 standered..

Any details? Do Arjun have autotracker?

Armour was improved throughout time, Not to mention we have we had help from both Russia and Germany and we improved it..

So does tested it against the Armour module..

I dont have to repeat IMI AP was defeated at point blank range ( -50m )..

So do Kanchan armor use dynamic elements? Heavy metal alloy modules? What ammunition was fired to that armor, I wan't their designation names, "IMI AP" don't tell me nothing.

 

[Damian]

Arjun scores over T-90S in accuracy and range (an advantage Recoiled Gun still has over smooth-bore) as well as first hit probability.

I wan't proove for that statement! But independent from Indian goverment or DRDO, they can't be trust.

Hah tanks with smoothbore guns like M1A2 or Leopard 2A6 defeated Challenger 2 with rifled gun in Greek tests.

(an advantage Recoiled Gun still has over smooth-bore)

Rifled gun, not recoiled, recoil is something else than rifling. And no, there is no advantage over smoothbore guns.

As long as Army doesn't asks there is absolutely no need to change the gun or even raise figure on its effectiveness and lethality.

Yeah right, even British Army says that smoothbore is better, and they used rifled guns for long period of time.

And I would rather question lethality against tanks of these gun, Pakistani T-80UD would be very hard if not impossible to be destroyed from frontal arc by Arjun... heh only tank in Indian Army inventory capabale to fight with T-80UD is... T-90S.

 

[militarysta]

I had never heard such comment about Arjun Gun being FATAL or OBSOLETE (as said by you later).

the word "fatal" was in the context of the large width of the mask and the associated with it complications.

 

[Damian]

Anyone have cutway photo of Arjun 120mm APFSDS or penetrator (rod) lenght data?

 

[Blood+]

So, You have nothing important about this ammo.

Old myth. New Israeli and German ammo have difrent TU rods with self-sharpening abilities. This is result od years of testing long rods in Switzerland and Germany. But as I suspected - You don't know about that...


muzzle vel. is only one of many many factors. Life time, strain ability, propagation of temperature in barrel, etc.

btw: according to You thinking:
this: http://tatanano.inservices.tatamotors.com/tatamotors/images/gallery/images/cam1b_colors_yellow.jpg
"is no way inferior" for this:
http://www.dayton.org.pl/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/BMW-M3.jpg

bacouse both of them have 4 wheel, engine, doors, lights, seats, etc

Do you notice how stupid is this thinking?

Yeah,I don't have the rod length,it's classified.That's why I don't speculate things like you do.
I know about the 'self sharpening' Tu rounds,even south korea has recently developed one such round.Even a hardened ballistic cap can solve the issue of nose deformation upon impact of the Tu rounds to a good extent.But again,why comparing the rounds?The discussion was related to the ARDE L/52 rifled gun being 'crap' or not.In the AUCRT trials in 2008 the gun was tested with 1000 firings with not a single incident of barrel burst.That should answer the longivity of the gun barrel.It has a mussel velocity comparable to a longer barreled smoothbore gun,which proves the 'rifle gun having less energy and velocity than a smoothbore gun' to be a 'myth'.So,I proved my point that the rifled gun on Arjun is contemporary.

 

[ace009]

Yeah, I'm know, I'am na asshole and gruff person, and pain in the ass... but still I have right!

You "are" right ... as in "I am right"
to have right means to be able to do something by Law.
So, at least in this case you are wrong.

 

[Damian]

But again,why comparing the rounds?The discussion was related to the ARDE L/52 rifled gun being 'crap' or not.

Because gun itself have little impact on penetration capabilities, more important is ammunition... pfff and You claimed You know something!

In the AUCRT trials in 2008 the gun was tested with 1000 firings with not a single incident of barrel burst.That should answer the longivity of the gun barrel.

What ammunition was used in these trails eh?

Do You here about problems with DM53 ammunition? How that ammunition increased wear of barrel in such high quality tank gun like RH-M-120/L55?

Take that in to consideration mr. professional.

So,I proved my point that the rifled gun on Arjun is contemporary.

It is not, even ammunition for that gun is far from being comparabale to state of the ar 120mm APFSDS ammunition.

Oh and hey, look at that, 120mm FSAPDS round cutway photo:

Older and newer photos shows us very similiar penetrators, if not the same.

Yeah, this is modern, very modern, compare to M829A3:

 

[Rahul Singh]

I wan't proove for that statement! But independent from Indian goverment or DRDO, they can't be trust.

Hah! Why don't you yourself invite some experts to get proof. As far as i am concerned, i know last test was carried under eyes of foreign experts (Israelis of course) and unofficial comments says " Arjun's Gun is an accidental find for India".

Hah tanks with smoothbore guns like M1A2 or Leopard 2A6 defeated Challenger 2 with rifled gun in Greek tests.

Hah in India Arjun riffled gun scored over T-90S's smooth-bore.

Rifled gun, not recoiled, recoil is something else than rifling. And no, there is no advantage over smoothbore guns.

Rifled gun is more accurate and have longer ranges and Arjun's gun can also fire armour-piercing fin-stabilized discarding sabot .

Arjun's APFSDS

Yeah right, even British Army says that smoothbore is better, and they used rifled guns for long period of time.

But not our Army which specifically asked for Riffled gun in Arjun.

And I would rather question lethality against tanks of these gun, Pakistani T-80UD would be very hard if not impossible to be destroyed from frontal arc by Arjun... heh only tank in Indian Army inventory capabale to fight with T-80UD is... T-90S.

T-90 capable of fighting T-80UDs and Arjun defeats T-90S squarely, explains a lot.

 

[Blood+]

I wan't proove for that statement! But independent from Indian goverment or DRDO, they can't be trust.

Hah tanks with smoothbore guns like M1A2 or Leopard 2A6 defeated Challenger 2 with rifled gun in Greek tests.

Rifled gun, not recoiled, recoil is something else than rifling. And no, there is no advantage over smoothbore guns.

Yeah right, even British Army says that smoothbore is better, and they used rifled guns for long period of time.

And I would rather question lethality against tanks of these gun, Pakistani T-80UD would be very hard if not impossible to be destroyed from frontal arc by Arjun... heh only tank in Indian Army inventory capabale to fight with T-80UD is... T-90S.

Again,what else can be expected from an armchair general like you who pretends to know every thing but knows nothing.For instant,the Rheinmetal L/55 smoothbore gun has a mussel velocity of 1750 meter/sec with DM 53 rounds and 1650 meter/sec with DM 63 rounds.On the other hand the ARDE L/52 rifled gun has a mussel velocity of 1700 meter/sec with rod weight of 8 kg at only 600 mpa bore pressure as per official website.So it can be very easily seen that the performance of the ARDE L/52 rifled is slightly(read very very)inferior to the german L/55 smoothbore which is even longer.So how the indian gun becomes 'crap'??Oh wait!I know,I know....because it's Indian!Simple!!
Again this shows how ignorant you are and you will tell anything bs out of your own mind to prove your point.What a great knowledgable person!!Good going pal.Keep it up. . . . .

 

[Damian]

Hah! Why don't you yourself invite some experts to get proof. As far as i am concerned, i know last test was carried under eyes of foreign experts (Israelis of course) and unofficial comments says " Arjun's Gun is an accidental find for India".

Israeli experts, what experts, any names? Why then all world use smoothbore guns if rifled guns are such better?

Hah in India Arjun riffled gun scored over T-90S's smooth-bore.

Why then Challenger 1 and Challenger 2 were inferior in gunnery trails to smoothbore guns armed tanks? Why these tanks beaten CR1 on CAT competitions if rifled is so good?

Why CR2 was beaten in Greek and Saudi Arabian tank trails? Why?!

Rifled gun is more accurate and have longer ranges and Arjun's gun can also fire armour-piercing fin-stabilized discarding sabot .

Not true, rifled gun have the same range as smoothbore gun, and accuracy stand on smoothbore gun side, as I pointed out earlier, why rifled tank guns were beaten on comparrision trails in Greece, Saudi Arabia, why actually all countries use smoothbore guns if they are inferior? Why?!

But not our Army which specifically asked for Riffled gun in Arjun.

Maybe then Indian Army should listen other armies with greater experience in real modern MBT's combat, all these armies use smoothbore guns.

T-90 capable of fighting T-80UDs and Arjun defeats T-90S squarely, explains a lot.

DRDO data from tests is not worth of trust.