Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[sayareakd]

I think Arjun tank need PSO version for urban warfare.

 

[Damian]

The Blue are the Bulge of Extra Armour which is not present on LEO2A4, These Extra Buldge on both sides gives the total width of 3.2 meters, Without these Arjun may had same Leo2a4 Turret Width of 2.5m..

On this place Arjun have more Armour..

Oh god, You don't understand anything, It don't have more armor, these bulges thickness is similiar to Leo2 side turret armor thickness. Overall turret width don't have anything to armor thickness but to space inside turret.

Look, it even seems that I overestimated frontal turret protection in Arjun!




Are there more good quality photos from outside and inside? And some good drawings, maybe I and Militarysta can do some armor estimations.

I think Arjun tank need PSO version for urban warfare.

More needed is completely new better designed turret, not that crap currently manufactured.




Oh and look, it seems that indeed, I have right, thickness of these bulges on Arjun is similiar to the side turret armor of Leopard 2.

I allways have right... well allmost.

 

[militarysta]

I allways have right... well allmost.

And modest as always ....

 

[Damian]

Yeah, I'm know, I'am na asshole and gruff person, and pain in the ass... but still I have right!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

these bulges thickness is similiar to Leo2 side turret armor thickness. Overall turret width don't have anything to armor thickness but to space inside turret.

Look, it even seems that I overestimated frontal turret protection in Arjun!





Oh and look, it seems that indeed, I have right, thickness of these bulges on Arjun is similiar to the side turret armor of Leopard 2.

I allways have right... well allmost.

Dont twist it..

So your logic is the tank have more space inside the turret so manufacture decrease the Armour also this increase width of the turret but somehow its same Leoa4 turret`s width !?

It doesn't make any sense..




Those extras on side increase the Armour more than LEOA4 without any doubt, But LEOA4 overall Side Armour is better placed than Arjun..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I think Arjun tank need PSO version for urban warfare.

The best way to counter Arjun`s faults in degin is to update it with addon armour specially on sides and front of chasis also turret, With 1.5 tons of regular DRDO era..

1500Hp engine will take care of extra weight..



Also Sir, This addon Armour can be mounted on regiment workshop on field, Its not permanent and can be dismount when needed..

Beside Germans, Swedish manufacture such addons, If requested they can work on Arjun`s Addon Armour..

 

[Damian]

So your logic is the tank have more space inside the turret so manufacture decrease the Armour also this increase width of the turret but somehow its same Leoa4 turret`s width !?

Armor thickness over these bulges have nothing to do with width of turret. Width of turret depends on space inside it. Leo2 have more crapmed turret interior but armor thickness over sides is similiar.

Christ it is so hard to understand? The proof is even that photo of Arjun turret interior! Just look at the damn photo.

It doesn't make any sense..

It have sense, only You Kunal need to educate on tanks design issues.

Those extras on side increase the Armour more than LEOA4 without any doubt, But LEOA4 overall Side Armour is better placed than Arjun..

Your opinion contradicts with reality and proofs, like photographs!

Oh please Kunal, I know You are inteligent person, just admit that You are wrong, because You are, there are proofs, these photos, made by Your own goverment authorities!

 

[militarysta]

So your logic is the tank have more space inside the turret so manufacture decrease the Armour also this increase width of the turret but somehow its same Leoa4 turret`s width !?

It doesn't make any sense..

1. Leoaprd2A4 turret is less wide then Ajrun (Leo2A4 is less wide even T-72B )
2. this has no effect on armour thickness, becouse in leo2A4 designed quite "thin" the interval of the crew. Simply the INNER width of the turret is small. So armour can be thicker then in other tanks with more space inside turret.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Armor thickness over these bulges have nothing to do with width of turret. Width of turret depends on space inside it. Leo2 have more crapmed turret interior but armor thickness over sides is similiar.

My Friend, For that you need to witness on first handed, I did and also i have been inside T-72 as well as T-90, Leo a4 turret insides are good compare to both..

Leopard 2A4 tank :: 360 :: Panorama

Christ it is so hard to understand? The proof is even that photo of Arjun turret interior! Just look at the damn photo.

I have seen it, Its no different from LEO2A4, Except Arjun height is far lower than LEOA4..

It have sense, only You Kunal need to educate on tanks design issues.

Eduction is always there and learning is through out life, Same for you..

Your opinion contradicts with reality and proofs, like photographs!

Oh please Kunal, I know You are inteligent person, just admit that You are wrong, because You are, there are proofs, these photos, made by Your own goverment authorities!

These Pics are from Expo, I too took pics of that tank only..

And you dont want to admit the reality of the pics and detail i gave you..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

1. Leoaprd2A4 turret is less wide then Ajrun (Leo2A4 is less wide even T-72B )
2. this has no effect on armour thickness, becouse in leo2A4 designed quite "thin" the interval of the crew. Simply the INNER width of the turret is small. So armour can be thicker then in other tanks with more space inside turret.

In that sense, Arjun still have more Armour, the inside of leoa4 is same as Arjun, height is lower in Arjun though..

On the other part as you said LEOA4 have better side Armour, It should be LEOA4 have better placement of Side Armour than Arjun and I do completely agree on that part..

 

[sayareakd]

The best way to counter Arjun`s faults in degin is to update it with addon armour specially on sides and front of chasis also turret, With 1.5 tons of regular DRDO era..

1500Hp engine will take care of extra weight..



Also Sir, This addon Armour can be mounted on regiment workshop on field, Its not permanent and can be dismount when needed..

Beside Germans, Swedish manufacture such addons, If requested they can work on Arjun`s Addon Armour..

Sir, the idea behind arjun tank armour is not hit avoidance, but survivability, therefore it was made for survivability, some would say that avoidance would result in survivability, but design is different for both.

Tank is made as per GSQR.

 

[sayareakd]

why are we discussing Arjun in T90 thread ???

Arjun tank has separate thread.

 

[Damian]

This is what Militarysta have in mind, the over all width of turret don't say us anything, but when we compare turret width, armor cavity thickness and internal pics we see how it looks in reality.

Kunal for You Arjun bulges are thicker than on Leopard 2 side armor, but in reality thickness is same, just compare the three things, turret width, armor cavity thickness and interior of turret.

 

[militarysta]

In that sense, Arjun still have more Armour, the inside of leoa4 is same as Arjun, height is lower in Arjun though..

On the other part as you said LEOA4 have better side Armour, It should be LEOA4 have better placement of Side Armour than Arjun and I do completely agree on that part..

first:


I really can't understand

Im my opinnion there is no one LOS thickness thicker in Ajrun then Leopard2A4.
turret sides in Ajrun are not protected by "special armour". Photos was given. OK, I am not infallible but I have really experience in estimation of certain things.

Can you give my one sure measurement on Ajrun tower? gun mantle (mask) or something?


ps. Damian - You bloody bastard! You desacralized my beauty drawning! Shame on You! ;-)
pps. You still signify bad EMES-15 gap

 

[Storm shadow]

From the pictures it's clear that the side bulges on the Arjun turret are definately thicker than the Leopard 2A4 but the rear portion is thinner.But here we are forgetting one crucial thing.That is,the Leo 2A4 was introduced in the late 70's and the armor tech has come a long way from then.On the other hand the final version of Kanchan composite armor came only in 2004.So definately the Kanchan is more advanced than the Leo2A4 armor and it does not mean that the Arjun mk1 has weaker armor than the Leo 2A4 which is no less than 30 years older.

 

[militarysta]

So definately the Kanchan is more advanced than the Leo2A4 armor and it does not mean that the Arjun mk1 has weaker armor than the Leo 2A4 which is no less than 30 years older.

Sorry Sir, but definatly not.

first:
So, acording to You thinking - new Nortk Korea tank must be better then M1A1HA from 1988?
Or Polish PT-91MZ from 2003 should be better then Leopard-2A5 for 1994? Or Leo2A4 for 1988?
Sorry but newly manufactured thing does not mean "modern".




second:
Armour in Leopard-2 was changed

between Leo2A0 and Leo2A3 in ~1983
between Leo2A3/A4(erly) and Leo2A4(late) in 1986
beetwen Leo2A4 and Leo2A5
now: beetween Leo2A6 and Leo2A7.

 

[Damian]

From the pictures it's clear that the side bulges on the Arjun turret are definately thicker than the Leopard 2A4 but the rear portion is thinner.

It is rather obvious that You don't have even smallest clue where armor is placed on both tanks... Christ I'am a Pole and I know more about Arjun armor placement than Indian citizens!

Side bulges on Arjun have same thickness as side turret armor on Leopard 2A4.

But here we are forgetting one crucial thing.That is,the Leo 2A4 was introduced in the late 70's and the armor tech has come a long way from then.On the other hand the final version of Kanchan composite armor came only in 2004.So definately the Kanchan is more advanced than the Leo2A4 armor and it does not mean that the Arjun mk1 has weaker armor than the Leo 2A4 which is no less than 30 years older.

Leopard 2A4 was introduced in second half of 1980's, it is not Leopard 2/Leopard 2A1 from 1979... This is the first thing, second Leopard 2/A1 have different armor than Leopard 2A4, and early Leo2A4's have weaker armor than late production Leo2A4's!

And how the hell nation that just recently builded it's own tank + it's own composite armor, so why India suddenly is better than Germany or any other big tank producer? What experience You designers have? What Data? Any real combat expereience with modern MBT's? Any reliabale tests?

Maybe more humility, not that "we are superpower" talk style.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

three things, turret width, armor cavity thickness and interior of turret.

Turret width = Done given you the details.
Armour cavity = Same as Leo2 A4 degin except the extras. ( Look at the pic of interior (Arjun ) and you already been Leo2a4 i assume.)
Interior = More or less same as Arjun MK1.


As i said, You need to see it first handed, I dont think u realized its size compare to LEOA4, I already shown you insides its same also height is much lower..

 

[Damian]

Kunal... You just prooved my point, side bulges on Arjun side front turret face have same thickness as side turret armor of Leopard 2 (~300-330mm at 90 degrees from turret center line)... Just look at what Militarysta posted, that photo from factory with drawings showing how to see where armor is placed.

As i said, You need to see it first handed

Nope, I don't, photos are good enough. Size of vehicle doesen't say anything about it's armor protection.

I dont think u realized its size compare to LEOA4, I already shown you insides its same also height is much lower..

But this doesen't mean anything, You arguments are pointless because You don't understand how armor is placed and how to messure it's thickness.

 

[militarysta]

Why not leave this issue for now?


It will by good idea.