Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Damian]

More and better pics of Object-187 are in one number of NTW - Nowa Technika Wojskowa magazine, there are also rumors that these prototypes will be repaired and shown in Kubinka museum.

Rare Pic..

Frontal armour penetration on turret..

Any more info, Is it with K5 or without one, Is it RPG-29 ?

Frontal armor penetration yes, but probably not perforated (projectile did not get inside vehicle at this place).

Tank was definetly tested with Kontakt-5 mounted, there are ERA cassettes still mounted on turret roof and cassettes elements are still visible in hull front armor.



This is one of Object-187 prototypes, not T-90A, but turret is more or less same, so I pointed where and how thick is special armor cavity.

 

[militarysta]

Rare Pic..

Frontal armour penetration on turret..

Any more info, Is it with K5 or without one, Is it RPG-29 ?

Well, it's not suprise that smth. penetrated frontal armor. But if "it" don't perforate armour - all is OK

You propably know taht about 90% texts on the internet about Russian hevy ERA is rubbish. Internet is full BS like "K-5 give +180-200-bla bla bla mm vs APFSDS". Only good tekst are from btvt in that thema.

But marketing have 'their RULES" and there is no information about the defects contained hevy ERA.

Ex - Ukrainian Nóż(Nosh) is very very good, in ideal world it should work like this:


But in reality may occur such a situation:

And You have not 90% effectiveness, but rather like for K-5
What's more -designers probably foresaw such a situation, and on Oplot turret (according to what they write on their forums Russians) There are two layers of "Knife" arranged in a checkerboard with a layer of lightweight filler-absorber between them.

Like this:

[][][][][][][]
########
.[][][][][][][]


Efficacy of heavy ERA depends on many factors: angle at which hits penetrator, its diameter, length, material of which it is made"‹"‹, the speed, etc.

 

[Damian]

Only small correction from me, Nóż (Polish) or нож/ніж (Russian/Ukrainian) means Knife in English.



Knife cassettes placement on T-84M Oplot-M glacis plate.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Not exactly, look at the pics.
Tank-Ex

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Arjun

It's been redesigned, but not to the point where it needs specific armour modifications. The LOS would be very similar to Arjun's turret.

Very cleaver choice of Pictures..



Here Arjun MK-1 Front and sides..

Frontal part of the turret is 3.2m wide..

Side of Arjun,.

Weight 58.5 tonnes (57.6 long tons; 64.5 short tons) Length 10.638 metres (34 ft 10.8 in) Width 3.864 metres (12 ft 8.1 in) Height 2.32 metres (7 ft 7 in) Crew 4 (commander, gunner, loader and driver)




KARNA MBT aka Tank-ex..

Frontal part of turret max width 2.8m same as LEO A4

Side of KARANA

Weight 47 tons Length 9.19 metres Width 3.37 metres Height 2.93 metres Crew 4 (Commander, Gunner, Loader and Driver)





The difference turret deign is clearly viable, Arjun turret ring is bigger compare to T-72s, And not longer cahssis compare to Arjun, Result is EX Turret is smaller compare to ARJUN`s at front also from sides..

Also Arjun turret is 20ton heavy, EX turret is light with lighter and harder kanchan module which ultimately reduce the total weight of the whole tank till 47 tons, Other wise it would have been 50+ tons..

And i know you know abt the difference between T-72 turret and Arjun /Karna turret, As no one yet ask u abt it yet..

 

[Damian]

Blue is armor panel or storage box, I don't know, red are definetly storage boxes. So this photo actually prooves my words about that Arjun have very weak side turret protection, weaker than on any other tank designed in western style.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Blue is armor panel or storage box, I don't know, red are definetly storage boxes. So this photo actually prooves my words about that Arjun have very weak side turret protection, weaker than on any other tank designed in western style.

Damian, Pal..

This was made by me, And i provided u first, This proved you are PARTIALLY right, The side Armour Of arjun is more than A4 coz of the bulge of Heavy Armour from sides, The part u pointed out is weak Indeed like most tanks, As per modern tanks T-90S have lesser Armour here..

 

[militarysta]

I have better:



Red - armour, or armour cavity.
Blue - non armored space (man gun sight, boxes for smth, etc..)

Well it's far far from the western III gen. tanks.

 

[Damian]

Yup, Arjun have less protection over turret sides than any NATO IIIrd generation MBT.

Interesting, look at Ukrainian 6TD engines family:

As per modern tanks T-90S have lesser Armour here..

Protection on T-90S at turret sides is comparabale to Arjun, RHA plate ~70-80mm thick, but T-90S turret design philosphy make this weakness a smaller problem.

 

[militarysta]

Damian, Pal..

.

Have You "clear" photo of that Ajrun turret form factory? Without any marks on it? I can do something with it

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Yup, Arjun have less protection over turret sides than any NATO IIIrd generation MBT.


Protection on T-90S at turret sides is comparabale to Arjun, RHA plate ~70-80mm thick, but T-90S turret design philosphy make this weakness a smaller problem.

I read some where that LEO-A4 turret width is 2.5 meters, Where i measured is 3.2 meters width of Arjun MBT turret..

Thats why it have more protected from sides, Except the part Damian indicated..


Its Russian text..

Its in the theory, But an shell impact to side armour of Arjun and T-90S is same given the thickness of Armour of both tanks..

Have You "clear" photo of that Ajrun turret form factory? Without any marks on it? I can do something with it

I am not getting that pic now.. when find will send u via PM..

 

[Damian]

I read some where that LEO-A4 turret width is 2.5 meters, Where i measured is 3.2 meters width of Arjun MBT turret..

Thats why it have more protected from sides, Except the part Damian indicated..

Turret width doesen't have anything to side turret protection. Messure side armor cavity not whole turret width.

So no, Arjun don't have more protection.

Its in the theory, But an shell impact to side armour of Arjun and T-90S is same given the thickness of Armour of both tanks..

It depends on hit angle, at +/- 30 degrees from turret center line, in T-90S side turret armor is impossible to hit, while in Arjun it is, because of turret geometry.

 

[militarysta]

I read some where that LEO-A4 turret width is 2.5 meters, Where i measured is 3.2 meters width of Arjun MBT turret..

Thats why it have more protected from sides, Except the part Damian indicated..

Ok, which box is better protected from side?:


Of course box "B" - though it have a smaller overall width.

The same about Leo2A4 and Ajrun Mk.1.

Side for leo2A4 is ~330mm.
Side for Ajrun is ~80-120mm thick.
For me is obvious.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Ok, which box is better protected from side?:

Of course box "B" - though it have a smaller overall width.

The same about Leo2A4 and Ajrun Mk.1.
Side for leo2A4 is ~330mm.
Side for Ajrun is ~80-120mm thick.
For me is obvious.

Overall armour on side of Leo is good and better than Arjun..

What i said is the buldge on forefront is more than Leo which gives it additional length..

More place more armour..




Also 120mm thick Arjun where Leo a4 is 330mm ?

 

[Damian]

What i said is the buldge on forefront is more than Leo which gives it additional length..

What bulge, that on the sides? That bulge have nothing to do with side protection. In fact side armor over that bulge is look more or less like this:



Very similiar to Leopard 2.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Turret width doesen't have anything to side turret protection. Messure side armor cavity not whole turret width.

So no, Arjun don't have more protection.

It depends on hit angle, at +/- 30 degrees from turret center line, in T-90S side turret armor is impossible to hit, while in Arjun it is, because of turret geometry.

Width represent the more Armour, Overall side Armour is good in leo2a4 but where i pointed u know already ..

Even hit at sloped angled 50mm Armour can deflect tank shells ?




For that you need to go to field, see how the operate, From any tank at sides or back that place is vulnerable..

 

[militarysta]

What i said is the buldge on forefront is more than Leo which gives it additional length..

???
I beg Your pardon?

Also 120mm thick Arjun where Leo a4 is 330mm ?

Im my opinnion less then 80mm for Ajrun. 120mm is max value looking for edge of the hatch, or "technological holes".
I'don't mesure Ajrun, but im preety sure that is around ~ 80mm.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

What bulge, that on the sides? That bulge have nothing to do with side protection. In fact side armor over that bulge is look more or less like this:

Leo dont have the bulge, these Extra plates gives additional protections that`s why the width is 3.2 m,

In simple words more Armour on side, Not overall but that place for sure..


Also the red block is more..

 

[Damian]

Better pic, I draw lines where armor is.

Width represent the more Armour,

Nope, sorry Kunal, but it seems that You don't know how to search on photo where armor is.

Even hit at sloped angled 50mm Armour can deflect tank shells ?

Depends on angle of plate, angle of hit and type of ammunition.

For that you need to go to field, see how the operate, From any tank at sides or back that place is vulnerable..

Do You know what is safe manouvering angles principle? In T-90S or any Russian and Ukrainian tank, under safe manouvering angles this means +/- 0-30 degrees from turret center line over frontal arc, it is impossible to hit side turret armor that is indeed thin, 70-80mm max thick RHA or CHA element.

On NATO tanks problem was solved differently, they just placed over turret sides thick composite armor, no less than 300mm thick, at +/- 30 degrees from turret center line, 300mm thick composite armor will be at least 1-2 times thicker for projectile attacking at such angle.

Leo dont have the bulge, these Extra plates gives additional protections that`s why the width is 3.2 m,

In simple words more Armour on side, Not overall but that place for sure..

Eh, You don't understand what You see.







Please explain me, how on Arjun that place can be better armored? And it don't even protect crew, only cover from side front armor cavity.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

???
I beg Your pardon?

but im preety sure that is around ~ 80mm.

The Blue are the Bulge of Extra Armour which is not present on LEO2A4, These Extra Buldge on both sides gives the total width of 3.2 meters, Without these Arjun may had same Leo2a4 Turret Width of 2.5m..

On this place Arjun have more Armour..

 

[militarysta]

In T-90S or any Russian and Ukrainian tank, under safe manouvering angles this means +/- 0-30 degrees from turret center line over frontal arc, it is impossible to hit side turret armor that is indeed thin, 70-80mm max thick RHA or CHA element.

example:





On the other hand - western sides for 30. have about 660 - 700mm LOS so they are thicker then "cheek" Russian tanks (about 600mm).