Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[p2prada]

T-90A, or yours T-90SA.

Erly T-90 (or yours erly T-90) is more, more simmilar to the T-72B - it's more weak then T-80UD. T-90A have welded turret - smillar to the Ob.187 (probably it is the same turret?) with biger LOS + other.

We have the welded turret version. Our T-90 is based on the T-90A. Our indigenous T-90 will have Kanchan inserts though.

As I now, it's myth Of course I haven't idea what is the typical range of fire on India.
In Poland it is under 1500m in 95%, in Fulda Gap (Germany) - 1300m in more then 90%. That is reason why GLATGM not have been developed in the West - Refleks, Refleks-M, Kobra, Invar, are usles when fire range is under 1500-2000m. Sabot is faster.
And GLATGM HEAT warhed is (propably) to weak to penetrated Leo2/M1A1HA frontally (turret).

Yeah Missiles are good for where the gun range becomes useless. I guess we are the same as the Polish. Arjun was claimed to have a 2m accuracy at 2000m at 90%.

of course we have many other factors affecting the accuracy, but Greek trial test shows that westren tanks are preety good.

When it comes to the gun and ammo, yes west tech is more advanced.

Yes... Total lenght of new APFSDS is ~740mm.
About penetration.

Propably "new" APFSDS will be ave about 650-700mm RHA for 2000m no more, but writing about it is a great speculation.

These are old shells.

Polish 125mm "Pronit" and his modernization have penetration about 500-610mm RHA, so propably new Russian APFSDS wil be have about 650-700mm.

Pretty good for the subcontinent I guess. Even IA has asked DRDO to develop newer indigenous shells for T-90. Our older shells won't cut it anymore.

If You want, I can post more infos about modern ammo.

Yes Please. Do you have something for French and Israeli ammo? I heard Israel is also making shells for 125mm smoothbore guns, any info on that would be great.

 

[plugwater]

@militarysta

Sir please dont update your old posts with new valuable informations. please post it separately. thanks

 

[militarysta]

Damian...try to by more polite. Second remov... :-/

Ajrun is quite good as afirst home-made indian tank. It's far from perfect, but it's first. Nex "Ajrun" will by mucht better - propably with T-90SA technology, or with licenses from other countries.
Fist self-made tank always will be imperfect.

Should I remember polish PT-91? (copy T-72M1) - the same problem.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You don't understand idea behind composite armor do You Kunal?

Ok I try as simplest as possible, there is no space for composite armor cavity on hull sides in Arjun, there is no composite armor over turret sides in Arjun, simple as that, because there is no space for composite armor cavieties there.
Depends, it is not that simple.

For that u need to get inside it, It is been told that it is protected all around, that place is also important, From outside its more or less 10cm to the hatch, Now does their a buldge from inside the tank ?, The manufactures did said so and i take their words for it.

That place is vulnerable indeed like most tanks, Also their are lot of factors like angel and place of round hit on the side specifically on that place..

 

[Damian]

It is been told that it is protected all around,

Someone lie, this is definetly lie, because it is just impossible to use composite armor all around tank... unless You wan't something that will weight more than 100 metric tons...

The manufactures did said so and i take their words for it.

I don't belive them, I don't belive them because I have enough knowledge to know what I see on photographs, so they are liers.

That place is vulnerable indeed like most tanks, Also their are lot of factors like angel and place of round hit on the side specifically on that place..

Yes, but the point is that Arjun don't have composite armor over turret sides, end of discussion, this is a fact prooved by photographs provided by You own goverment.

Damian...try to by more polite. Second remov... :-/

I'am polite, You know me, and You know when I'm not polite.

 

[p2prada]

Polish dates for oldest one for "my" 10Tk Bde (leopard-2):

You can speak to the mods for a Military professional rank. :thumb:

We have two shells of our own. One is 125mm and the other 120mm.

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/26.htm

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/lc/23.htm

The performance figures are not known. The 120mm is as long as the M829A3, but the projectile is not as heavy or effective. I would effectively place the ammo to be above the DM-53 due to the weight and length of the projectile. But the DM53 is fired from the L-55 compared to Arjun's rifled gun. So, overall performance reduces. No idea where it would stand though.

 

[Damian]

The 120mm is as long as the M829A3, but the projectile is not as heavy or effective.

Projectile is, penetrator is much more shorter, and the penetrator lenght and diameter is important, not whole projectile.

This 120mm round is not even as close to M829A3 or DM53 as You probably wish it to be.

Not to mention materials technology.

I would effectively place the ammo to be above the DM-53 due to the weight and length of the projectile.

You are very courage person to make such statements, I would be very, very carefoul You know, NATO countries or Russia have much greater experience in designing tanks, their armaments and ammunition than India, so explain me please... how the hell Indian goverment and people expect that from zero they designed something comparabale? But please, when You explain something, use logic.

But the DM53 is fired from the L-55 compared to Arjun's rifled gun.

If I would be You I would ask goverment who made such stupid demand for rifled gun, outdated technology for even more outdated ammunition like HESH where for smoothbore guns there are allready more effective rounds like Israeli Kalanit HE round with programmabale fuze (3 or 4 different fuze settings made automatically by FCS).

So, overall performance reduces. No idea where it would stand though.

Arjun is on early 1980's level, so it;s ammunition is probably also somewhere there. Maybe Arjun Mk2 will be somewhere near current standards.

The only right decision made in development stage of Arjun Mk1 was used suspension, externally mounted hydrogas suspension is much better than torsion bar suspension.

 

[militarysta]

Yes Please. Do you have something for French and Israeli ammo? I heard Israel is also making shells for 125mm smoothbore guns, any info on that would be great.

OK, Israeli.

Polish Pronit is IMI 125mm APFSDS licence.

Well the most funny think is how popular is IMI 125mm APFSDS:

(it's about BS like: "mysterious Chinese with 800mm RHA penetration" - it's total fake)


We can find IMI rods (125mm) in APFSDS ammo in:
1) Poland (pronit)
2) Slovakia (konstrukta)
3) China
4) Pakistan (from China)

About 120mm IMI ammo:





About rest ammo.
There is big problem about sources.
example:
3BM42M (3BM44M):

~630mm RHA for "0m" (milit. instr.)
~510mm RHA for 2500m (military instr.)
~650mm RHA for 2000m (other)
sure: 600-650mm RHA for 2000m (btvt)
up to: 650mm RHA for 2000m (btvt)
~500mm RHA for 2000m (Mariusza Magiera "Współczesna amunicja czołgowa")
~600-650mm RHA for 2000m ( Tank Protection Levels)
~600-650mm (wikipedia)
~600-650mm RHA for 2000m (Vasiliy Fofanov's Modern Russian Armour Page)

As You see - it's difficult, but I try.

French:

OLF 120 F1 DU sabot

left - 90mm next 4 - 105mm, last - 120mm





trening (sabot):


OFL 120 F1 have about ~560mm RHA for 2000m
OFL 120 F2 have about >640mm RHA for 2000m

next:


pfdfy z WITU:

My own comparison for APFSDS:

Dates for DM-13 are incorrect!


My own comparison for HEAT:



for btvt -russian APFSDS:


Mariusza Magiera, Nowa Technika Wojskowa 4/2002 r "Współczesna amunicja czołgowa".

You can speak to the mods for a Military professional rank

I worked for polish MoD, but I'm not tank crew member. I just have meny friend from polish 10 Tk Bde, I worked with them, and sometimes I have access to the very interesting things, but I'm not in military service Sorry.

Our indigenous T-90 will have Kanchan inserts though.

Are you sure? It sounds a little weird? The Russians did not give license to "filler"? Or Kanchan is based on russian solution for T-90A??

The performance figures are not known. The 120mm is as long as the M829A3, but the projectile is not as heavy or effective. I would effectively place the ammo to be above the DM-53 due to the weight and length of the projectile. But the DM53 is fired from the L-55 compared to Arjun's rifled gun. So, overall performance reduces. No idea where it would stand though.

Well, I don't think so...

DM-53 for L-55 propaby have 750-810mm RHA for 2000m (propably it's OPSPEC, but they are some rumors...)
Dm-63 is beter for that reson:

And both of them (DM-53/DM-63) were designed to destroy russian/ukrainian tanks after hevy ERA - Kontakt-5/Relikt, maybe "Nóż" (Nosh).

 

[ace009]

View attachment Arjun MBT-Special-Report-23.pdf

In some discussions I read that Russian ammo is two piece, due to technological limitations, and is not as strong as current NATO once piece ammo. Also due to the autoloader size requirements, typical Russian ammo penetration rods are shorter than current NATO penetration rods.
What do you know about this? Can you illuminate?
I am attaching a semi-pro defense journo article about Arjun here ...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Someone lie, this is definetly lie, because it is just impossible to use composite armor all around tank... unless You wan't something that will weight more than 100 metric tons...

Yes, but the point is that Arjun don't have composite armor over turret sides, end of discussion, this is a fact prooved by photographs provided by You own goverment.

Yes, I assume you right on that part, That place is not protected by Composite Armour but calling it side Armour entirely is wrong, Arjun sides are more thicker than Leoa4 on certain place..

And yes it same on most tanks..

 

[p2prada]

Projectile is, penetrator is much more shorter, and the penetrator lenght and diameter is important, not whole projectile.

This 120mm round is not even as close to M829A3 or DM53 as You probably wish it to be.

Not to mention materials technology.

Yeah. The length and diameter of the projectile is not known, but we can estimate the weight of the projectile to be 4.8Kg if we can give the weight of the sabot to be 2Kg.

You are very courage person to make such statements, I would be very, very carefoul You know, NATO countries or Russia have much greater experience in designing tanks, their armaments and ammunition than India, so explain me please... how the hell Indian goverment and people expect that from zero they designed something comparabale? But please, when You explain something, use logic.

You misunderstood. I did not mean capability, I only meant size and weight of the shell. For all we know, it could be a rip off of an Israeli or German shell rather than our own design.

If I would be You I would ask goverment who made such stupid demand for rifled gun, outdated technology for even more outdated ammunition like HESH where for smoothbore guns there are allready more effective rounds like Israeli Kalanit HE round with programmabale fuze (3 or 4 different fuze settings made automatically by FCS).

I do not know much about Israeli shells. But I was the first guy on this forum to claim the Arjun gun "sucks." I have been ostracized many times for it. Lucky for me the mods here have more sense or I would have been banned many times on equivalent forums for going against indigenous products.

I always claimed HEAT is superior to HESH as well.

Arjun is on early 1980's level, so it;s ammunition is probably also somewhere there. Maybe Arjun Mk2 will be somewhere near current standards.

The only right decision made in development stage of Arjun Mk1 was used suspension, externally mounted hydrogas suspension is much better than torsion bar suspension.

The Arjun requirement was generated in 1985. Before that it was at the level of a M-60 or Merkava Mk1. A possible Pakistani induction of the Abrams made us change requirement to the current version of the Arjun. The 120mm rifled bore was also something from 1985, by 1992 it was too late to change the gun to a more modern gun. We did not have access to much of western technology at the time.

Seeing the Army wants a new tank, I don't expect to see radical changes in the Arjun in armour or gun beyond what we will see in Arjun Mk2.

 

[sayareakd]

Arjun tank is meant for regular tank war fighting, tanks going together in war, therefore it given protection based on this thinking. Portion which is expose to enemy is heavily protected.

 

[p2prada]

OK, Israeli.

We can find IMI rods (125mm) in APFSDS ammo in:
1) Poland (pronit)
2) Slovakia (konstrukta)
3) China
4) Pakistan (from China)

Surprising that Pakistan uses Israeli tech as well.

OFL 120 F1 have about ~560mm RHA for 2000m
OFL 120 F2 have about >640mm RHA for 2000m

Do they also use DM rounds or only their own?

My own comparison for HEAT:

You have placed the 9M119M1 higher than Lahat. Quite impressive. I always thought it was the other way round.

I worked for polish MoD, but I'm not tank crew member. I just have meny friend from polish 10 Tk Bde, I worked with them, and sometimes I have access to the very interesting things, but I'm not in military service Sorry.

Knowledge has no boundaries.

Are you sure? It sounds a little weird? The Russians did not give license to "filler"? Or Kanchan is based on russian solution for T-90A??

Yes. Ordinance Factory Board(OFB) had the T-90 designed to place our composite armour in the T-90. They openly said they have successfully added 130mm Kanchan inserts into the T-90.

The Russians have no problems with that.

In early 2000s the Russians delayed handing over ToT for the 2A46M-2, we made our own version of the gun using our own materials too. OFB said they were not as good as the Russian ones. After 2008 all ToT issues were sorted out according to what articles have to say about it. The Russians do not want to give away armour ToT so we used our own instead.

DM-53 for L-55 propaby have 750-810mm RHA for 2000m (propably it's OPSPEC, but they are some rumors...)

The capabilities of the OFB ammo is unknown. We don't have equivalent open source test figures for the same. It is the same for the 125mm ammo as well. Or at least I am not aware of them.

 

[p2prada]

Been looking for some figures for Indian shells.

Couldn't find much but here goes,
Tank Protection Levels

Indian T-2 125mm tungsten 500mm at 2km (1997) (appears similar to ChiCom 125mm round)

Indian 120mm tungsten 650mm at 2km

I don't know what is the T-2 version but we do manufacture IMI's 125mm MK1 shells.
http://www.cag.gov.in/html/reports/defence/2010-11_15PA-OF/chap3.pdf

A contract agreement was signed between OFB and IMI Israel in September 2004
for supply of 15,000 units MK-I FSAPDS 125mm anti-tank ammunition in two
phases. The first batch assembled in India was subjected to proof test in May 2005.
Controller of Quality Assurance (Ammunition) did not accord Bulk Production
Clearance as it failed in the proof test. Meanwhile, in the Target Fixation meeting for
2005-06 held in January 2005, it was decided that OFB would supply further 30,000
of the ammunition during 2005-06 (cumulative 45,000). Though the consignment of
15,000 units was awaiting Bulk Production Clearance from inspectorate authority,
OFB imported further 30,000 units in September 2005 valuing Rs 99.34 crore (US$
22 million) at the Phase-I rate. 45,000 units valuing Rs 141 crore were still lying idle
as of May, 2010.

 

[militarysta]

View attachment 4048

In some discussions I read that Russian ammo is two piece, due to technological limitations, and is not as strong as current NATO once piece ammo. Also due to the autoloader size requirements, typical Russian ammo penetration rods are shorter than current NATO penetration rods.
What do you know about this? Can you illuminate?

In some way it's true, during cold war russian APFSDS amo have simmilar penetration - usually lower by about ~50mm. It was caused by the simmilar penetrator(rod) length.
But in the end of 80. (since M829) western tank ammo start to increase the length of penetrator(rod). More space in the cartridge, lighter sabot, etc. And so began a big difference in penetrating. Estern ammo stopped at about ~600mm RHA for 2000m in 1990', and western increased to: ~650 (M829A1, OLF F-2, DM-53 L-44) and more then 700-750mm in the end of 90' (DM-53 L-55, M829A3; DM-63). Now the difference for the best design (west-east) is 150-200mm. It's big value.

So, it's not suprise that Russian till T-90A increase the length of the cassettes for amunition (autolader) in Korzina-A. And now in T-90M we have confirmation that max. lenght is 740mm.

BTW: remeber that russian standard penetration is more acute than the western. In NATO You should have 50% perforation to have "guaranteed performance", in Russia it's 80% perforation in study group rounds.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If I would be You I would ask goverment who made such stupid demand for rifled gun, outdated technology for even more outdated ammunition like HESH where for smoothbore guns there are allready more effective rounds like Israeli Kalanit HE round with programmabale fuze (3 or 4 different fuze settings made automatically by FCS).

Arjun is on early 1980's level, so it;s ammunition is probably also somewhere there. Maybe Arjun Mk2 will be somewhere near current standards.The only right decision made in development stage of Arjun Mk1 was used suspension, externally mounted hydrogas suspension is much better than torsion bar suspension.

Rifled Gun and Hesh requirements were since 80s or before as the ammo and the gun both are doing the job well, their was no complains..

HE round is good, But does it deliver same performance as hesh against bunkers ?, Heat was never considered coz it lack the explosive power against Infantry on open..


Arjun is 80s deign not tech, Also its been improved during the time so it cant be called purely 80s deign..

Arjun2 is deign as per today`s needs of IA so does then ArjunMK1 in old days..



Arjun dont use torsion bar suspension, though i agree abt Hydro gas as it dont make any hole on the hull..

 

[militarysta]

Surprising that Pakistan uses Israeli tech as well.

rather, Chinese, which is the licensed of IMI in some parts.

Do they also use DM rounds or only their own?

Yes.

You have placed the 9M119M1 higher than Lahat. Quite impressive. I always thought it was the other way round.

Well, the data is given for BTVT. If there are just as "accurate" as in the articles of Leopard-2 we should be careful.

Yes. Ordinance Factory Board(OFB) had the T-90 designed to place our composite armour in the T-90. They openly said they have successfully added 130mm Kanchan inserts into the T-90.

You sure that value? LOS thickness for T-90A is ~620-650mm (perpendicular to the surface of the "cheek"), it's really interesting. Then I'll write why. But please make sure that this value and not, say twice ..

The Russians do not want to give away armour ToT so we used our own instead.

So, the Russians do not want to give license fot russian "specjal armour" but it was placed in Indian T-90 (imported from factories in russia), or they sold T-90A without "specjal armour" and Indian industry had to develop they own "specjal armour"?

. Or at least I am not aware of them.

You should. T-80UD is very well protected. But for destruction, poor clones T-55 T-59 T-72A/M1 even ~550mm should be enough

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You sure that value? LOS thickness for T-90A is ~620-650mm (perpendicular to the surface of the "cheek"), it's really interesting. Then I'll write why. But please make sure that this value and not, say twice ..

So, the Russians do not want to give license fot russian "specjal armour" but it was placed in Indian T-90 (imported from factories in russia), or they sold T-90A without "specjal armour" and Indian industry had to develop they own "specjal armour"?

You should. T-80UD is very well protected. But for destruction, poor clones T-55 T-59 T-72A/M1 even ~550mm should be enough

It is said abt further production of T-90S which will feature a APU and a AC, Its been told that Armour module on T-90S have tot problem also its expensive, Where as Kanchan Armour is tested and proven in country as well as cheap compare to Russian Module..
It is been rumored that Kanchan armour lighter and more harder varient was used on Tank-ex aka Karna prototype will be used in home made T-90S tanks..


How much the amount is not know as it will be in tons..


T-80ud are good tanks, But Indian T-72M1 'Ajaya mk1' to updated for this purpose, They are not good as T-80UDs but good enough..

Lots of Product like FCS and Gun are changed, PT-91 FCS is been Installed on many T-72s with ERA cover, BMS and other hardware are also on the list..

 

[p2prada]

rather, Chinese, which is the licensed of IMI in some parts.

A lot of Israeli tech in Chinese military. AWACS, radars, ammunition etc.

You sure that value? LOS thickness for T-90A is ~620-650mm (perpendicular to the surface of the "cheek"), it's really interesting. Then I'll write why. But please make sure that this value and not, say twice ..

The Hindu : Tamil Nadu / Chennai News : First indigenously built T-90 S rolls out

The indigenisation of the tank marks a significant phase in the production of the state-of-the-art tanks in India. HVF took up manufacture of T-90 tanks in collaboration with Russia. Till now, semi-knocked down and fully knocked down tanks imported from Russia were being assembled at the facility on the outskirts of the city. The first assembled tank rolled out of the facility in January 2004..The process of indigenisation was set rolling after HVF gained experience in assembling the tanks and, pursuant to an agreement between the Indian and Russian governments. There were problems along the way. "We had some problems with the turret – the 130-mm armour plate," said Mr. Chandrasekar.Chairman, OFB, Saroj Vinayek, spoke about the "challenge to manufacturers."

The Russians declined to part with the technology for the turret and the gun, claiming it was not part of the original agreement. This led to protracted, but barely fruitful negotiations, and delay in the indigenisation schedule. OFB officials said they fabricated the turret under extremely difficult circumstances as technological inputs from Russia were not forthcoming.

This was the first article. This was followed by another where OFB officials are quoted saying they were successful with replacing the Russian armour with Kanchan 130mm inserts. They talk about the gun in the same article as well. Unfortunately cannot find it. Will post it whenever it shows itself again.

If officials say 130mm, then it could very well be 130mm.

So, the Russians do not want to give license fot russian "specjal armour" but it was placed in Indian T-90 (imported from factories in russia), or they sold T-90A without "specjal armour" and Indian industry had to develop they own "specjal armour"?

The Russians sold it in the form of kits. The first batch of 700 odd tanks have the Russian armour. The indigenous batch will have Kanchan. They sold their armour first and we will make our version with our armour. No ToT.

You should. T-80UD is very well protected. But for destruction, poor clones T-55 T-59 T-72A/M1 even ~550mm should be enough

Yes. The Al-Khalid I and II based on the Chinese Type-90 also seem to be well protected. Lucky for us they have only 300 odd T-80s from Ukraine. They have some 500 Type 85s as well. The rest are T-55,59 type tanks. Dunno if the Al Khalid autoloader is modified like it is in the T-90.

 

[p2prada]

It is been rumored that Kanchan armour lighter and more harder varient was used on Tank-ex aka Karna prototype will be used in home made T-90S tanks..

Karna uses the Arjuns turret. It's design is different from the T-90s.

Lots of Product like FCS and Gun are changed, PT-91 FCS is been Installed on many T-72s with ERA cover, BMS and other hardware are also on the list..

Drawa-T FCS, Israeli TI(forgot the name), Indian radios, navigation and LWS etc. Then we have K-5 ERA over that. 1000 odd tanks will have a similar upgrade in few years. IA may be looking at other alternatives from Russia and Israel for more upgrades.

Polish firm to upgrade India’s T-72 battle tanks - Express India