Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Damian]

Do you have any idea on why the tanks seem to have different ERA? The tanks with desert camo seem to have wider ERA blocks compared to the green camo one.

Because some tanks have turret welded from RHA elements, these are newer version based on T-90A, and older tanks have turret welded from CHA elements, these are based on old T-90.

It is that simple.



Can some one explain me what designer was so "briliant" to design such stupid turret?

Side armor is a joke, ~70-80mm max, covered only by some storage boxes, this is complete design fail, do that "briliant" designer hear in his life about safe manouvering angles? This means that side turret armor must be thick enough to protect effectively from hits at +/- 30 degrees from turret center line, this means or thick multilayer laminate armor no less than 300mm thick like on NATO MBT's, or side armor angled in such way that it will be covered by frontal armor like on Russian and Ukrainian tanks.

I can say one thing, someone in India should make hard and difficult questions to design team, why they do so many mistakes, and someone should take responsibility for tank crews lifes.

 

[militarysta]

In T-90A thema.

It's very good tank. About LOS thickness - it's difficul.
LOS from Russian forums (otvaga etc) :

1-st variant:


2nd variant:



comparing with Leo2A4 (values for Leo2A4 are 100% correct, for T-90A they are from russian sites):




the last thing:





Turret mas for Leo2A4 is 16,5t, but "pure" armour mas is 8,9t.

So, turret is well protected. Worse thing is the storage of ammunition - all ex Soviet tanks have the same problem after perforation.

Hulls:

As we can see - T-72 family is a terribly dangerous after amrour perforation.


Tanks:

western:






the worst of Western tanks:




ex Soviet :






Here you can see the differences in design - in ex Sowiet tanks there is no ammo in turret, but hulls are full of them. One prforation and we have big problem. On the other hand - ex Soviet tanks have small turrets without ammunition - which favors their survival, becouse, on the battelfield, about 70-75% hits are in turrets. So small, vell armed turret without ammunition is good idea.
ex:

Here is hit distribution in Desert storm 1991

Based on the study of

- Т-55 (65% -51),

- Т-62 (17% - 13),

- Т-72 (18% - 14).

Destroyed by

SC - 70% - 51, (HEAT)

APFSDS - 20% - 16,

Other - 10% - 11.

77% (60) hits in the turret. Hull - 23% (18).

From Prof. M.Held. Warhead hit distribution on main battle tanks in the Gulf War.

 

[Damian]

Only one thing, in M1 series, hull ammo magazine is also isolated from the rest of tank, that magazine as turret magazines have sliding armored doors and blow off panels (two in hull roof and one in hull belly).

So it is safest of all mass produced MBT's.

On the other hand in Leo2, Arjun and possibly Leclerc it is easier to reload turret magazine from hull magazine.

 

[Damian]

BTW do Indian Army plans to develop for Arjun or other tanks similiar up-armor kit like TUSK?


[URL=http://img828.imageshack.us/i/m1a2septusk.jpg/]


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[militarysta]

On the other hand in Leo2, Arjun and possibly Leclerc it is easier to reload turret magazine from hull magazine.

Yeah...

Procedure for M1A2:

1. TK consists of the chair back and leave the tank
2. gunner moves the safety lever in position "secured safety"
3. gunner:
-opens the door to additional storage
-pulls out a cartridge and waits until the doors close
-opens the door to the ammunition bunker, loads the cartridge in the bracket, then waits until the doors will be close,
4. Repeat this action until the reloading of ammunition magazines

Procedure for Leopard2A4:

1. stabilization off the cannon and its blockade in a single location
2. rotate the tower in position 3
3. tower block in this position
4. protective grille opening, located at the bottom of the tower
5. remove the cartridge from the hull magazine
6. pressing the large button to open the bunker door of the tower, loads the cartridge in the bracket
Then - two options:
first- close bunker door and repeat this action until the reloading of ammunition magazines
second - keeping open the bunker door and faster reload the magazine

all takes less than 10minutes, and it is possible (but not recommended) during slow moving.

 

[p2prada]

@militarysta

Great comparisons. About the T-90 specs you posted right in the beginning, is that the T-90 or the T-90A?

One more point I would like to add, being the small tanks the T-90s are, they represent a smaller target on the battlefield and the well protected turret being a bigger target than the rest of the tank.

BTW do Indian Army plans to develop for Arjun or other tanks similiar up-armor kit like TUSK?
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The Mk2 version of the Arjun will be seeing ERA, Trophy system from Israel, ability to fire Lahat and some extras. No idea if the regular armour is being boosted though. But the numbers being inducted aren't very great to speak of compared to the strength of our armoured forces.

BTW, do any of you know anything about the T-90AM or any new rounds being made for the T-90? Any inputs from you would be valuable as access to Russian forums isn't exactly fun when you don't know the language.

 

[Damian]

There are some pics of T-90AM, wait a second I will post them.




Tank is equipped with new Relikt (4S23) ERA in turret front, hull front and hull side, turret side armor is protected by ERA that looks like 4S24 ERA.

 

[plugwater]

P2p, Arjun Mk2 will have Iron fist not trophy.

 

[Damian]

The Mk2 version of the Arjun will be seeing ERA,

And where that ERA will be placed?

No idea if the regular armour is being boosted though.

To boost basic protection of Arjun You need to develop completely new turret, the one used currently is total design fail.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

And where that ERA will be placed?

Their is a Heavy Era under development for this purpose and will be mounted on front..

And other areas will be protected by DRDO era tiles ..

To boost basic protection of Arjun You need to develop completely new turret, the one used currently is total design fail.

In that sence all countries using LEOA4 have same deign problems..

Things can be changed if MK2 will appear with modifications like on LEOA6

 

[Damian]

Their is a Heavy Era under development for this purpose and will be mounted on front..

And other 2nd gen era tiles will be all around like on T-72M1 ( DRDO era tiles ) in Indian Army..

It will be interesting to see how it will be arranged.

In that sence all countries using LEOA4 have same deign problems..

Yes, that is true.

Things can be changed if MK2 will appear with modifications like on LEOA6

Turret need to be completely redesigned on Arjun, not only differently placed main sight, but also side turret armor need to be increased and made from composite armor, not ~70-80mm max thick RHA plate covered by thin storage boxes.

 

[militarysta]

@militarysta

Great comparisons. About the T-90 specs you posted right in the beginning, is that the T-90 or the T-90A?

T-90A, or yours T-90SA.

Erly T-90 (or yours erly T-90) is more, more simmilar to the T-72B - it's more weak then T-80UD. T-90A have welded turret - smillar to the Ob.187 (probably it is the same turret?) with biger LOS + other.

One more point I would like to add, being the small tanks the T-90s are, they represent a smaller target on the battlefield

As I now, it's myth Of course I haven't idea what is the typical range of fire on India.
In Poland it is under 1500m in 95%, in Fulda Gap (Germany) - 1300m in more then 90%. That is reason why GLATGM not have been developed in the West - Refleks, Refleks-M, Kobra, Invar, are usles when fire range is under 1500-2000m. Sabot is faster.
And GLATGM HEAT warhed is (propably) to weak to penetrated Leo2/M1A1HA frontally (turret).

about accuracy:

example:
only gun stabilization error - affects the accuracy only during movement, and for good measure does not include errors viewfinder, SKO, vehicle vibration during movement and the effectiveness of the suspension, dispersion of ammunition, and many others.
It's look like this:

Leopard 2A4:





of course we have many other factors affecting the accuracy, but Greek trial test shows that westren tanks are preety good.

BTW, do any of you know anything about the T-90AM or any new rounds being made for the T-90? Any inputs from you would be valuable as access to Russian forums isn't exactly fun when you don't know the language.

Yes... Total lenght of new APFSDS is ~740mm.
About penetration.

Polish dates for oldest one for "my" 10Tk Bde (leopard-2):

3BM42 -P0:580 P2500:460
DM33 -P0:600 P2500:490
M829A1 -P0:700 P2500:560
3BM42M -P0:630 P2500:510
DM53(L44) -P0:670 P2500:560
M829A2 -P0:770 P2500:660
M829A3 -P0:920 P2500:810
PRONIT -P0:560 P2500:460

P0 - range 0m
P2500 - range 2500m


Propably "new" APFSDS will be ave about 650-700mm RHA for 2000m no more, but writing about it is a great speculation.
Polish 125mm "Pronit" and his modernization have penetration about 500-610mm RHA, so propably new Russian APFSDS wil be have about 650-700mm.

125mm PRONIT:




If You want, I can post more infos about modern ammo.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Turret need to be completely redesigned on Arjun, not only differently placed main sight, but also side turret armor need to be increased and made from composite armor, not ~70-80mm max thick RHA plate covered by thin storage boxes.

It is composite Armour, Side Armour on Arjun in length are more than 30cm when compare to RHA equivalent is good enough, With addition of ERA the protection will increase..

 

[Damian]

No Kunal, side armor of Arjun is only simple RHA plate covered by storage boxes.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/5705/arjunturretde.jpg

It is clearly seen on that pics, the one with completed tank in sand camouflage color shows us that that thing on side turret You think is armor, in reality are storage boxes.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

No Kunal, side armor of Arjun is only simple RHA plate covered by storage boxes.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/5705/arjunturretde.jpg

It is clearly seen on that pics, the one with completed tank in sand camouflage color shows us that that thing on side turret You think is armor, in reality are storage boxes.

Arjun is protected by all around composite Armour call kanchan..

Yes, Those are for carrying valuable equipment and other necessity things for tankers..

The place is at least 100mm thick, Though its lesser than LEOA4 on that part..

 

[Damian]

Arjun is protected by all around composite Armour call kanchan..

You can't use composite armor on every surface of tank, it can be used only on hull front, turret front and turret side surfaces, sometimes also turret top and hull side sponsons.

Yes, Those are for carrying valuable equipment and other necessity things for tankers..

So there is no Kanchan armor over turret sides.

The place is at least 100mm thick, Though its lesser than LEOA4 on that part..

I doubt that it is 100mm thick, and even 100mm thick RHA plate is nothing against even simple RPG-7.

 

[p2prada]

And where that ERA will be placed?

To boost basic protection of Arjun You need to develop completely new turret, the one used currently is total design fail.

We don't know. Currently the Mk2 is in tests in Pokhran. No pictures out as of today. Hopefully by September or October we will know.

There could be a new turret and gun, but that's wishing for a lot when numbers procured is too less and the Army wants a whole new MBT.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You can't use composite armor on every surface of tank, it can be used only on hull front, turret front and turret side surfaces, sometimes also turret top and hull side sponsons.
So there is no Kanchan armor over turret sides.
I doubt that it is 100mm thick, and even 100mm thick RHA plate is nothing against even simple RPG-7.

It is protected by Composite Armor on all around protection including sides ..

Yes, RPG - 7 warhead is deadly on side of Arjun so does most tanks without ERA or Addon armours..

 

[Damian]

It is protected by Composite Armor on all around protection including sides ..

You don't understand idea behind composite armor do You Kunal?

Ok I try as simplest as possible, there is no space for composite armor cavity on hull sides in Arjun, there is no composite armor over turret sides in Arjun, simple as that, because there is no space for composite armor cavieties there.

Yes, RPG - 7 warhead is deadly on side of Arjun so does most tanks without ERA or Addon armours..

Depends, it is not that simple.

 

[Damian]

It is protected by Composite Armor on all around protection including sides ..

Nope, it is just physically impossible. And there is no Kanchan over turret sides. Even child with minimum knowledge on modern MBT's will say same thing.