There are enough armor tests conducted and several Army officers have admitted both off the record and on it, that the Arjun is a more heavily armored tank than the T-90. Just because you are ignorant, and abusively so, does not make your Russian fanboy'ism any less ignorant.
And fools like you should learn how to debate before opening your mouth. The Army refers to the T-90 as a medium weight MBT and the Arjun as a heavy MBT. So does the developer. Indian Parliamentary records likewise, as audited by experts from the user and developer. Understood? We really dont care what you fools in Poland call your tanks..
What?
Yes, I should believe you. The same Russian standards that mean that almost half the Russian equipment we have inducted so far, whether it be AGLs, or night scopes or tanks or krasnopol shells or smerch units have failed in Indian conditions. Clearly, you know nothing of the Indian Army and Indian operational conditions, and how they radically differ from what Russia faces. If you did, you'd think twice before opening your mouth.
Who is we? You and your kiddy brigade? When was the last time you even saw an Arjun or even understood its armor layout with armor professionals versus requirements or even what it was tested against.Yes we are aware of armor placement.
More rubbish. India has access to & has used several best of class systems for the Arjun sourced from worldwide OEMs and even developed others locally. Your silliness speaks for itself when you assume that India did not iteratively develop the Arjun.Yes, and the rest of world just stop their development and waited for India?
Again, vapid ignorance disguised as sarcasm. If you were even remotely aware about tank ammunition development, you'd know that India has had several offers to codevelop 120 mm tank ammunition for its Arjun, rifled & there is no magic required there. Just a bit of engineering to adapt existing technology and product lines.Really so explain me, how You will manufacture ammunition that can't be fired from Rifled gun? Because all 120mm ammo is for smoothbore guns and British ammunition for rifled guns is 3 piece ammunition. So how You would do that?
DRDO does not need to show you diddly squat. Its primary customer is the Indian Army. They show what they can & cannot do to the Army & its the latter which decides what meets it requirements. Folks like you may posture about what Russian mil-porn shows & does not show. The reality as is evident from Indian imports and long experience of using these systems is different.So where are these improved variants? Oh wait, let me guess, DRDO afraid to show them?
LOL at my comment. I remember where I saw this name. It is in this forum, in this thread some 10-15 pages back.
Dunno if that's the same guy though.The mythical space is there and the mythical round, actually rounds were in tests in 2009 AFAIK. BTW, you yourself said DRDO has been asked by the Army to create new rounds for T-90. So, we have some mythical plans as well. So, give it sometime and we will have mythical weapons in our hands.
Whichever is the latest in production. The Indian Army does not use the BM42 designation but an inhouse one which I dont have my notes now to crosscheck. The in series production round (offered by Russia with all T-90s) is deemed inferior to Israeli rounds. The problem was that there is no option but to procure both as Russia refused to accomodate other rounds without extra expense (citing IP with Ballistic Computer)
Thanks for the links but what I'd add is please be a bit more skeptical about Russian claims. 90% of these are engineering prototypes awaiting funding to translate to series production. When India was offered many of these "options" most of these turn out to be "fund us, and it will be available one day" sort of stuff. The result is that we are looking more and more towards Israel and Europe to series upgrade our armour, apart from local systems. Latest is 300 TISAS upgrade for T-72s, as versus claims of "best systems from Russia" which were widely advertised for Indian T-72 upgrade.
What space? Have you seen it? Where are the series tanks with such "space" which make it equivalent to current tanks? What happens to the carousel loader? These talk of tests apart, even today, the Army is dissatisfied with Russian rounds!
Wrong!The Armys plans are not mythical. They have asked DRDO to develop rounds for existing T series tanks. There is no plan to radically reengineer the T-90 to some uber new standard unlike what the opening post of this thread (based on fantasies from the fertile imagination blessed Prasun Sengupta) claims! They simply want a reliable, long term sustainable source of 125mm ammo!
You are just talking out of your hat here. The Army does not rely on Israeli rounds because they are cheaper, they require them because they are better and won in competitive trials. That is when local production was agreed to!
Boss, face the facts! The T-90s came with ready packages of weaponry. We had no option but to accept them as is! The Russians even refused to provide BC codes to incorporate third party weaponry!
Replying to your ridiculous claims is not trolling! And no, the 3BM42M is NOT better than the Israeli rounds!
What 740 mm shell and what rubbish are you spouting now? The 3BM42M or whatever you want to call it, or the latest Russian round available to India is NOT equivalent to what we get from Israel off the shelf. Before bleating about trolling, get off your butt sometimes, and actually go talk to procurement guys at open expos and the like. You'll learn far more than fervently believing in Russian brochures!
ROTFL
Sarcasm is well placed here.
1) maybe in hull. Not in Turret, becouse this is shitty in Ajrun MK.1. It's look like rejected turret project Leoparda2A0 from the mid-1970s.
It's simple really. If a T-90 can fire the 3BM42M then it has been modified to fire the 42M. It is 740mm long. That's all there is to it. So, your talk of mythical space and weapons have already been busted.
Even I don't care about Sengupta's article. The T-90 is being radically engineered in Russia to be a better tank that what it actually is. Give it sometime. But there is no way of knowing today if we are getting the same upgrade as they claim it can be.
Are you kidding me? The last time you said we even use Arjun's BC on T-90. So, why change the colour now? The last I heard we finished up the Russian rounds and bought more.
You claimed the additional space is mythical and so is the round. I came back saying the additional space is there and mythical weapon you were referring to has already been in existence for over 15 years. Hence you were trolling.
Do you have the specs of the Israeli rounds? The new ones which are supposed to be better than the BM42M, not the IMI Mk1 and Mk2, we already have those.
I wan't see a proof that Arjun is better armored than T-90 with welded turret, we used photographs to show armor placement on Arjun, it was far from western standard.
The MBT's are called MBT's only worldwide You ignorant, so on the other hand world don't cares how You call MBT's in India... but think twice who is more experienced with MBT's and their terminology, world or India alone?
Read what, You can't read?
Proofs, give me comparabale trails results!
Ah, do You know what means armor layout, armor layout is something different than protection requirements and armor ballistic tests.
What busted? Whats the use of this 740mm if the BM42M or whatever you want to call it cannot meet the latest Israeli rounds. Look beyond brochure claims sometimes.
Give it sometime, yes the same time that was given to the uber T-95 super tank and what not which ended up being cancelled. Heres an update. Russia has very limited funds to spend on such projects & its ground forces have been lagging in terms of modernization, meaning pretty brochures with imaginary CAD pics (and lacking any detailed prototyping) are given to customers like India. Saying fund, fund! The point is this super T-90 may never enter series production anytime soon!
I cant help it if you are obtuse! The Arjun's BC is being reengineered to fit the T-90, so as to use other rounds! That does not mean the T90 already has the Arjun's BC en masse! Testing is a laborious process & TATA SED will have to jump through every hoop for meeting Army requirements for direct and indirect fire, especially when they dont have access to original BC source codes and gunnery algos.
Just because you said something does not make it true or even germane! All it shows is that you still cant understand what is being talked about! If the 740 mm round does not meet the performance of the current gen Israeli rounds all it shows is the Russians are lagging and more development is required!
There are no Russian rounds available for export right now which match the latest israeli rounds. Its a sad fact of life. Supposed to better is not = in production.
Yeah, I read Fofanovs site as well. But its not really germane to the discussion. What matters is absolute performance and Russia is lagging there. APFSDS production is a pain.
1) maybe in hull. Not in Turret, becouse this is shitty in Ajrun MK.1. It's look like rejected turret project Leoparda2A0 from the mid-1970s.
As I said - this "latest israeli rounds" is SHITTY. As many other weapons form Israeli.
All these rounds are pre 1985 rounds. And no they are not better than a round inducted in 1996. If you were referring to the Israeli rounds as being superior to the old 3BM42 then you are right. It is an old round and the propellant is older. It has a tungsten penetrator with a steel casing which makes it weaker than the all tungsten penetrator in the IMI shells.
That's not Russian fault. This would be DRDO's work. How on earth is Indian FSDS "imported?" If propellant leaked, we introduced the tear in the seams, not the propellant.
Perhaps we simply have not negotiated for the 3BM42M rounds properly. This shell is 15 years old, maybe more.
The Russian electronics is lacking. But we are talking about gun, shell and armour. We are planning on using Russian guns, armour, hull, chassis, engine and turret with western electronics, quite similar to the French kits the Russians use on their T-90s.
Whatever can be indigenized is good for us.
The first batch was Polish.
None of this matter with the real discussion at hand.
Even the Russians are choosing European partners for development of their technologies.
So trying to disguise your ignorance and initial silliness regarding your abusive behaviour, eh? If you don't know or care what MBTs are called in India and how they are classified, why are you discussing Indian Armour with the attitude of knowing all about it? And as regards experience with armour, suffice to say India has more experience with armour operations, than most nations.The MBT's are called MBT's only worldwide You ignorant, so on the other hand world don't cares how You call MBT's in India... but think twice who is more experienced with MBT's and their terminology, world or India alone?
Rather late in the day after your brazen display of abuse earlier.No offence to India and our Indian collegues.
Can you?
Yes, give you "proofs" after which you claim India releases too many results whereas beloved Russia does not, hence latter is right!Proofs, give me comparabale trails results!
Thanks for telling us all what we already knew.
Boss, first understand this. The Arjuns armour layout is per IA requirements developed per close coop with the developers and international agencies like KMW. Their experience counts for far more than finger pointing on the net going by brochures and arrows here and there.We know armor layout from photographs, it is simple, we still don't know correct protection level it offers but we have some idea.
Wrong, wrong, wrong! All these are rounds from the 1990s and beyond!!
DRDO's "work" when it has nothing to do with the round in question beyond providing MK1 design to the OFB! You again misconstrue what was written because of lack of awareness! The propellant was imported from Russia (which said it would work fine) and combined with DRDO FSDS by OFB! The propellant leaked in Indian heat, it had NOTHING to do with "tear in the seams" or some such thing! Go see an actual 125mm round sometime, its a CCC round, and if the propellant composition is not optimal for local conditions, it will leak out of the casing, making the entire round dangerous to use! Which is what happened!
What perhaps? Why are you not understanding, that the Russians supplied the T-90s with their latest rounds but these rounds are not equal in performance to the latest israeli ones? This is why I am saying dont get fixated on designations beyond a point, look at what the end result was.
We are not even using Russian armour across the board. The OFB & DRDO packages are already supplanting raw materials and packages on the T-90. The problem is the overall T-90 platform has 67% commonality with the baseline T-72M. This was what was sold as a plus. But its also a negative as the base technology used has not been significantly modified, and it was limited to begin with. Plus we got shellacked in having to import what we could locally make.
Yes
No dropped. DRAWA-T flopped in trials and was replaced with TISAS.
?
They have to. They are so behind in several areas, its not even funny.
The T-90 is a reworked T-72. Even the Army says so.
What brochure claims? Penetration can be calculated. Brochures are only guides for the said calculation. Calculate it anyway you want. There is one thing I have concluded with our discussions, you know as much as a media guy does on the Arjun, but you have limited knowledge on anything outside. The Israeli shells are all less than 600mm long, the 3BM44M is somewhere else.
The T-95 cancellation reasons are not completely known. But you are giving blind reasons on why "India has surpassed Russian armour." Funding is not the only aspect of armour. It is clear you haven't read the earlier pages, even if you did then you have not understood what we have been discussing about.
Simple math shows the 740mm shell with newer propellant will obviously surpass older, smaller rod shells made in Israel.
So, stop embarrassing yourself. You are making one mistake after the other.
It is very clear you haven't been reading. Some of Fofanov's claims have been rubbished. So, some of your information from Fofanov may also be discrepant. At the very least start off from where Andrei makes an appearance in page 60s or something in this thread. Then you will have a gist of what's happening here.
Attempts to use english would be appreciated.
No, why don't you? Do you expect to be spoonfed about an Indian project, which is going to a frontline battlefield on the internet? Do you expect that any statements about ammuniton development and its status will be given to you on a platter to win an argument? Go use your brains sometime, instead of sarcasm and think of other systems on the Arjun and you'll have your answer.
More rubbish. The Army tested the Arjun turret in a variety of live fire tests & found it able to resist whatever was thrown against it. And what do you base your "understanding" on? External appearance, without a clue of the actual armour arrays and how its stacked up. Says it all.
Hello - what you are saying about Israeli tech applies to Russian tech as well. It did not work for us in India time and again, till we made it work! Point is you run down the Israeli teething troubles and ignore the Russian dubious vaporware!
Good for Poland.
And our experience with some Russian items has been far worse.
All you have pointed out so far is that Israel was not ideal. Which is hardly the point if Russia was worse. You guys need to use some of the latest land systems tech from Russia sometime & see the "teething troubles" than come back and talk.So writing that clone 125 mm IMI is better than 3BM44M looks rubbish. In Poland, we tested these "Jewish miracle" - sorry, we prefer to cooperate with the Germans.
New Polish cores are copies of those from Germany - of course adapted to the shorter cartridges, and not as new as DM53/63. But it was enough to achieve more than 600mm (~ 600-610) of 125mm cartridge.
The oldest ones (120 and 125mm sabots/rods
Old "pronit" and New APFSDS. On the photo is only "old" PRONIT. New sabot is in the table of course photo should be not placed in internet, so sorry ;-)
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