LOC, LAC & International Border skirmishs

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Bornubus

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I think we can no longer assume that Pakistan is not a threat to India even in terms of conventional forces. For all intents and purposes, a war with Pak is a war with China. We need to fix our procurement and weapon development programs.
Lol if Pak armed forces was not a threat India would've used military options against Pak long ago so I ain't assuming Pakistan is not a threat. Pak armed forces is more than a threat to India both conventionally and unconventionally let alone in a 2 front war involving China.

Whatever disparity they have against Indian they compensate with their proxies, irregulars and better procurement to some extent.
 

Tarun Kumar

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Lol if Pak armed forces was not a threat inferior India would've used military options against Pak long ago so I ain't assuming Pakistan is not a threat. Pak armed forces is more than a threat to India both conventionally and unconventionally let alone in a 2 front war involving China.

Whatever disparity they have against Indian they compensate with their proxies, irregulars and better procurement to some extent.
I agree, our approach is to move in a slow but sure way which is perfect in an ideal world but does not work in real life. Take for example artillery, user trials of Dhanush were completed in April itself, rather than deploying them on LOC and ironing out any deficiencies, army went for another round of trial . Our whole system works in a textbookish way whereas Pakis quickly adapt to superior Indian firepower despite a much smaller budget. I blame the army leadership more than bureaucrats as they could not get a better deal than Modi. They are responsible for delay in artillery and assault rifle induction. Anyways I hope our army leadership responds and responds hard to this provocation.
 

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Lol if Pak armed forces was not a threat India would've used military options against Pak long ago so I ain't assuming Pakistan is not a threat. Pak armed forces is more than a threat to India both conventionally and unconventionally let alone in a 2 front war involving China.
By not a threat, I mean in an offensive way. They have a long time ago managed to get the numbers and equipment to give India a good fight in a scenario where India is the aggressor. However, with China giving them unconditional support, investing in their country and doing joint patrols and exercises, I think we might be faced with Kargil 2.0 but this time with a Pakistani Army that is much better equipped logistically and equipment wise bolstered with Chinese support in the international diplomatic arena.
 

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India needs another 10-15 years of build up and development to face both China and Pakis at once. There's no need to start a conventional war at present because it will be fought with imported expensive weapons only. A war will definitely push Indian development back by a decade.
 

Bornubus

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I agree, our approach is to move in a slow but sure way which is perfect in an ideal world but does not work in real life. Take for example artillery, user trials of Dhanush were completed in April itself, rather than deploying them on LOC and ironing out any deficiencies, army went for another round of trial . Our whole system works in a textbookish way whereas Pakis quickly adapt to superior Indian firepower despite a much smaller budget. I blame the army leadership more than bureaucrats as they could not get a better deal than Modi. They are responsible for delay in artillery and assault rifle induction. Anyways I hope our army leadership responds and responds hard to this provocation.
1984 Pak Army already inducted snow clothing for Siachen when Indian was still inviting quotation but still occupied Siachen by preempting Pak due to the luck and strong determination.


George Fernandes (3 dozen visits on Glacier) use to punish such Babus as he know the hardship of soldiers by experiencing it firsthand. Once he was told by the troops the urgent need of Snowmobiles the requisition of which submitted by the army long back but no progress.


He immediatly enquired that Babus were responsible for the delay so he ordered them to visit Siachen as punishment.
 

Bornubus

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They have a long time ago managed to get the numbers and equipment to give India a good fight in a scenario where India is the aggressor.

India is not an aggressor more any India is fighting a defensive war for a long time. As for kargil 2 even during kargil war Pak army equipped with force multipliers such as Arty location Radar that India inducted much later. Many war veterans of kargil acknowledge it's importance.

FB_IMG_1494861934714.jpg
 

Suryavanshi

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India is not an aggressor more any India is fighting a defensive war for a long time. As for kargil 2 even during kargil war Pak army equipped with force multipliers such as Arty location Radar that India inducted much later. Many war veterans of kargil acknowledge it's importance.

View attachment 17659
And nothing has changed since then :doh:
 

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Kashmir: Forces taste success, outfits frustrated

  • Over 100 terrorists killed till Tuesday this year, as compared to 150 in the whole of 2016
  • 33 Lashkar-e-Taiba and 23 Hizbul-Mujahideen terrorists eliminated this year
  • 57 terrorists killed in joint operations, 43 killed while infiltrating from Pakistan
  • About 150 terrorists, including 40-50 who infiltrated from Pakistan, still present in south Kashmir


NEW DELHI: There was no specific intelligence about Monday's attack on Amarnath pilgrims in Anantnag but primary analysis by agencies suggests that it could be the result of frustration among terrorists who are on the run due to the aggressive line of security forces.

According to official figures, Army, CRPF and Jammu & Kashmir Police are literally hunting down terrorists in the Valley with over 100 killed till Tuesday this year as compared to 150 in the whole of 2016. Officials said out of the 100 terrorists killed in major joint operations this year, 33 belonged to Lashkar-e-Taiba and 23 to Hizbul-Mujahideen.

Sources said some of the big names gunned down in the last months included LeT's district commander Basir Lashkari (who was listed among A++ category of wanted terrorists in the valley); another top commander of Pakistan-based outfit Abu Haris; outfit's divisional commander Abu Musaib; and Hizbul commanders Sabzar Ahmad Bhat, Aquib Ahmad Bhat, Abu Hamza and Gulzar Ahmad Lone.

According to a senior official who coordinates joint operations with army, CRPF and J&K police's SOG, most of the terrorists have been neutralised in Budgam, Kupwara, Kulgam, Baramulla, Anantnag, Bandipore and Pulwama. He said while 57 terrorists have been killed in joint operations, 43 were killed while infiltrating from Pakistan

"Specific intelligence is being gathered on terrorists hidings in villages and they are being targeted as part of coordinated operations. For example, three terrorists - Javid Ahmed, Sheikh Dawood Ahmed and Aaquib Gul - were neutralised in Budgam on Tuesday night after security forces zeroed in on the house where they were holed up," said an official who didn't wish to be named.

"Specific intelligence is being gathered on terrorists hidings in villages and they are being targeted as part of coordinated operations. For example, three terrorists - Javid Ahmed, Sheikh Dawood Ahmed and Aaquib Gul - were neutralised in Budgam on Tuesday night after security forces zeroed in on the house where they were holed up," said an official who didn't wish to be named.

The officials are, however, concerned about 150 terrorists, including 40-50 who infiltrated from Pakistan, who are still present in south Kashmir.

Monday's attack though didn't dampen the spirit of yatris. According to the data of Amarnath Shrine Board, a day after the attack, 10926 yatris travelled from Pahalgam and Baltal.



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...s-outfits-frustrated/articleshow/59570076.cms
 

Mikesingh

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Get another three divisions into the Valley to hunt down all the terrorists and destroy their hideouts in concerted 24X7 ops for about three months. If not, it will take perhaps a couple of years to sort out these buggers. And that's too long!
 

Tarun Kumar

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India needs another 10-15 years of build up and development to face both China and Pakis at once. There's no need to start a conventional war at present because it will be fought with imported expensive weapons only. A war will definitely push Indian development back by a decade.
I agree. the skirmish on LOC shows that we are simply not ready for 2 front war. Last year we killed 27 Paki soldiers and lost 18 of our own. Pakis evened the score by launching nagrota where we lost 7 troops. This year casualty count again is 25:10 in our favour but they are responding by killing 1-2 of our soldiers like yesterday. Unless you have overwhelming superiority in artillery against Pakis and balance against China, any limited war will be a stalemate and push back India by a decade. So we must build up our firepower and respond to any provocation by more and more targeted firing especially by artillery.
 

sorcerer

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Six Expert Views on How India Should Look at the Latest Border Stand-Off With China
China and India have been engaged in a standoff in the Doklam area near the Bhutan tri-junction for about 20 days now after a Chinese army’s construction party came to build a road. While the Chinese have asked India to withdraw its troops from the area as a pre-condition for any resolution, India has accused the Chinese of directly violating an agreement between the two countries.

The Wire contacted experts on China who have either dealt directly with the relationship or are prominent academics. Most agree that the Chinese action is aimed at changing the status quo at the tri-junction, a point indicated in the official Indian statement. At the same time, there is also consensus on the need to carefully handle the situation, since it involves Bhutan, India’s closest ally in the neighbourhood.

‘Good relations can only be maintained on the basis of mutual sensitivity’


Nirupama Rao. Credit: Reuters

Nirupama Rao
Former foreign secretary and
former Indian ambassador to China


§

Was a major border incident between India and China expected?

The last few months have exposed the fragilities and strains in the India-China relationship. The equilibrium is already pitched at a low level. There has been no visible attempt to defuse tensions as the temperature has risen steadily. India has some genuine grievances which China has shown little understanding of. The Chinese handling of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor issue is one example. Another is the Masood Azhar UN listing. These are issues that affect us in a very real and tangible way. Good relations can only be maintained on the basis of mutual sensitivity.

Why has China roped in Bhutan into its dispute with India?

The dispute in the Doklam area is known. It is not a new phenomenon. But China’s road construction is a deliberate move to trigger a response from Bhutan and from India. Through its actions, China seeks to impose its own definition of the tri-junction point of the boundary between Bhutan, China and India (Sikkim). The move has serious security ramifications for both Bhutan and India’s defence interests.

With Bhutan now part of the India-China stand-off, how should India handle Bhutanese sensitivities?

Bhutan and India enjoy the closest relationship of mutual trust and confidence and enduring friendship. There is absolutely no controversy about military-to-military cooperation and understanding between our two countries. India holds Bhutanese sovereignty as sacred and inviolable. Article 2 of the Friendship Treaty signed by India and Bhutan in 2007 states: “In keeping with the abiding ties of close friendship and cooperation between Bhutan and India, the Government of the Kingdom of Bhutan and the Government of the Republic of India shall cooperate closely with each other on issues relating to their national interests.”

India and Bhutan have a common perception of their strategic concerns and cooperate closely on defence and security issues and border management including in capacity building and training of Bhutanese personnel.

Does the reference to the 1890 Anglo-Chinese treaty by China portend a more difficult situation with regard to Sikkim?

My own impression is that the present stand-off has more to do with the Doklam plateau and with Chinese moves to alter the tri-junction point. But tensions of this sort must be managed and defused carefully. Otherwise, they tend to spread to other disputed pockets of the border and this is obviously not beneficial for the overall bilateral relationship.


Can we assume that border incidents are sanctioned directly from Beijing?


Local PLA commanders work according to the template handed down by their superiors in terms of definition of what areas are disputed. In the Doklam area it is difficult to believe that they are behaving thus on their own initiative. There is a structure and pattern to Chinese military activity especially when it comes to these sensitive border pockets. The commandments are handed down, in my view.


Are there domestic motivations for China escalating the issue this time?

China’s assertiveness and muscular behaviour on territorial questions today draws strength from its newfound economic and military capabilities and its imaging as a near-superpower. The leadership and the party have kept memories of past “humiliations” at the hand of foreign powers in previous centuries alive in the minds of the population, and this in turn triggers hyper-nationalistic reactions that make it all the more difficult to work for reasonable and fair solutions to border problems with neighbours.

As China has consolidated its hold on peripheral areas like Tibet, its approach to old border disputes has only grown more rigid and unyielding. In the early years of the People’s Republic, I believe that Chinese leaders were less rigid in their approach since this was still an active phase of nation-building and China was inclined to take a more realistic and pragmatic position on the issue of border settlements. Unfortunately for us, we did not read sufficiently between the lines in that formative period of our bilateral relations. The rest is history.

‘The Chinese are unilaterally changing the tri-junction point’


Ashok Kantha. Credit: Institute of Chinese Studies

Ashok KanthaDirector of the Institute of Chinese Studies and former Indian ambassador to China (2014-2016)


§

Was a major border incident between India and China expected?


We can only speculate on the Chinese motives. However, China’s action in the Doklam plateau can be seen as part of its assertive behaviour of pursuing its contested territorial claims through muscular action. You can see a certain pattern in what is happening in the South China Sea, East China Sea and elsewhere, in Chinese pronouncements that it will not surrender an inch of its territory and its characterisation of those territorial claims as its core interests. The Chinese are stating that their claims over Doklam plateau are ‘indisputable’, though they are fully aware that Bhutan believes that this area belongs to them. We should look at the Chinese action in this light, rather than merely ascribing it to other developments in India-China relations, though those developments do provide the context.

Why has China roped Bhutan into its dispute with India?

China has certain territorial claims in Bhutan. There have been creeping encroachments since 1988. But there is no permanent presence of the PLA or of Chinese graziers in Doklam. For the first time, the Chinese are constructing a motorable road from Dokola towards the Bhutan army camp at Zompelri. It might be their assessment that Bhutan would not be able to resist. Clearly, the Bhutanese are not in position to make the PLA troops stop construction, even though they have conveyed to the Chinese side, both on the ground and through diplomatic channels, that the construction of the road inside Bhutanese territory was in violation of earlier agreements. The Chinese might also have assessed that India will not step into this situation. They want to change the facts on the ground through unilateral action, which they have done elsewhere as well.

For us, there are two other issues which cause direct concern to India. The Chinese are unilaterally changing the tri-junction point. This is in violation of the understanding we have reached with them in 2012. As the MEA statement has noted, the construction of the road will involve a significant change of status quo with serious security implications for India.

With Bhutan now part of the India-China stand-off, how should India handle Bhutanese sensitivities?

The Bhutanese government has made it clear, through the démarche made by the Bhutanese ambassador in New Delhi, their communications on the ground and then the statement issued by the Royal Government of Bhutan on June 29, that what the Chinese are doing by constructing a road inside Bhutanese territory is in direct violation of the agreements of 1988 and 1998, which required China to maintain the status quo as before March 1959, pending a final boundary settlement. They have also expressed the hope that China will restore the status quo ante of June 16, 2017. The Bhutanese position is very clear.


On our side, we have a military presence in Bhutan through
IMTRAT, etc. This is under bilateral understandings between India and Bhutan. It is not new. Second, there is very close coordination and consultation between India and Bhutan on the current issue.

At the same time, you would have noticed that the tone and contents of the MEA statement are very measured and balanced. I believe it takes into account Bhutan’s sensitivities as a small country which does not want to take on its giant northern neighbour. The government of India is seeking amicable resolution of the present stand-off situation, eschewing any polemics. This is despite the strong language of statements emanating from the Chinese Foreign Office and Ministry of Defence and China’s decision to expand differences by suspending the Kailash-Mansarovar yatra through Nathu La, even though they are aware of how the issue of yatra resonates at the popular level.

Does the reference to the 1890 Anglo-Chinese treaty by China portend a more difficult situation with regard to Sikkim?

India and China are broadly in agreement on the boundary in the Sikkim sector. We agree on the basis of alignment, which is the highest watershed in the area, but both sides are fully aware that more negotiations are required among the special representatives to fix the alignment of the boundary on maps and also demarcate it on the ground. The Chinese side is cognizant of significant differences with regard to the tri-junction point, as can also be seen from the maps of India, China and Bhutan. As the MEA statement has pointed out, the Chinese have specifically agreed that the tri-junction point will be finalised through consultations among the concerned countries. There are also differences on interpreting the watershed boundary between India and China in the Sikkim sector. There have been incidents in the past due to different interpretations of the boundary in northern and eastern Sikkim.

Are there domestic motivations for China escalating the issue this time?

I would not like to speculate on the motives behind this specific event, but we can look at patterns and drivers of behaviour in general. Nationalism has clearly emerged as a strong force in both the domestic politics of China and its external behaviour. In domestic polity, it is one of the main planks giving legitimacy to the Communist Party of China. In the external domain, I have earlier referred to the narrative of not giving up a single inch of territory.

I am hopeful that the stand-off situation will be resolved, though I do not know how long it will take. Look at Depsang in 2013 and Chumar and Demchok in 2014, we did manage to sort out tricky situations. It took some three-four weeks, but a solution was found. The present situation is, of course, different as it also involves a third country, Bhutan. China should pay heed to Bhutan’s request to restore the status quo as before June 16, 2017 and seek to find a solution through dialogue.

I believe that the Chinese are also interested in maintaining peace and tranquillity in the border areas. So they would not like to escalate the situation beyond a point. The Indian side has no desire to engage in polemics or step up tension. There are a number of mechanisms available – border personnel meetings and continuous and fairly close dialogue at the diplomatic level. So there is no communication gap. Hopefully, it can be resolved at the working level. I believe bilateral talks are underway between India and China, Bhutan and China and India and Bhutan.

With regard to Chinese statement demanding Indian troop withdrawal in exchange for talks, I will put that as an opening gambit. Dialogue is already going on.

‘Main Chinese motive seems to be to drive a wedge between India and Bhutan’



R. S. Kalha. Credit: Twitter

R.S. KalhaFormer secretary (West), MEA


§

Was a major border incident between India and China expected?

I do not think that there is a link between the present incident and our other issues with China on which we have differences, sometimes rather acute; although it must be admitted that these other differences do vitiate the atmosphere and foster general distrust.

Why has China roped Bhutan into its border dispute with India?


We have an understanding with Bhutan that any attack on Bhutanese sovereignty will be considered as an attack on India. Indian troops in Bhutan are basically on a training mission. Naturally, we have to be careful to respect Bhutanese sentiments and its sensitivities. Small countries have to be treated with extra care.


With Bhutan now part of the India-China stand-off, how should India handle Bhutanese sensitivities?

Bhutan is a small country sandwiched between two giants. It cannot sustain or withstand Chinese pressure alone. The main motive of the Chinese seems to be to drive a wedge between India and Bhutan, with whom we have excellent bilateral relations. Do recall Bhutan was the only South Asian country that stood by India when we decided to boycott the BRI summit in Beijing. From time to time, Bhutan has received Chinese blandishments to de-link from India and thus receive not only extensive economic help but also a better deal on the Sino-Bhutan boundary. Bhutan has steadfastly refused.

Does reference to 1890 Anglo-Chinese treaty by China portend a more difficult situation with regard to Sikkim?

Way back on March 22, 1959, (Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal) Nehru wrote to (Chinese Premier) Zhou Enlai that some parts of the Sino-Indian boundary was settled by the treaty. He cited the 1890 Anglo-Chinese Convention on the Sikkim-Tibet boundary as an example and urged the Chinese to honour it. Zhou in reply on September 8 refused to discuss the Sikkim-Tibet boundary, saying that it was outside the scope of present discussions. Subsequently, the Chinese in a note on December 26, 1959 confirmed the validity of the 1890 convention and stated that there was no dispute in this sector.

Can we always assume that border incidents are sanctioned directly from Beijing?

In my experience of dealing with the Chinese for over 15 years, including leading the Indian side for the crucial boundary sub group, I have never experienced a situation where the Chinese PLA takes steps without approval.

Are there domestic motivations for China escalating the issue this time?

I am sure that there would be someone within the party who would question why a small country like Bhutan or even India is still not accepting China’s version of the border. If you have adopted the platform of nationalism, then there will always be the temptation to make others toe your line by taking a tougher stance.

‘China misjudged India’s response to road building at Doklam’


Claude Arpi. Credit: Twitter

Claude Arpi,India-based French expert on India, China and Tibet


§

Was a major border incident between India and China expected?


China just ‘tried her luck’ and started building a road on a territory which is disputed, thinking that India would not defend Bhutan. It was a wrong judgment from Beijing’s part.


Why has China roped Bhutan into its border dispute with India?


It is not a border dispute with India. It is the dispute between Bhutan and China for which 24 rounds of talks have already been conducted. Joint surveys have been done. China broke her undertaking not to change the status quo.


With Bhutan now part of the India-China stand-off, how should India protect Bhutanese sensitivities?


What is the problem of Bhutan seeking India’s help to stop China to change the status quo? The entry of Indian troops was done in consultation with the Bhutanese government. For India, it had too important strategic implications to let go.


Does the reference to the 1890 Anglo-Chinese treaty by China portend a more difficult situation with regard to Sikkim?


The 1890 was an ‘unequal treaty’. It dealt with the borders of Tibet and Bhutan who were not even informed that the issue was discussed. It was the time of the Great Game, China conveniently forgets that treaties/discussions/correspondence since then.


Can we automatically assume now that border incidents are sanctioned directly by Beijing and not the stand-alone actions of border commanders?

Perhaps it happened in Chumar in 2014, but not this time. The decision to enter in a disputed territory came from Beijing.

Are there domestic motivations for China escalating the issue this time?


Yes, (Chinese President) Xi is visiting Hong Kong, and the 19th Congress is coming (and the 90th anniversary of the PLA on August 1 in between). The declarations of the spokespersons of Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Ministry of National Defence show that it was for national consumption.
Why to insult the Indian army chief because he spoke of two-and-a-half fronts, which is a fact. China too has an ‘Indian front’ which is being reinforced, i.e. new tanks north of the Chumbi Valley.

https://thewire.in/154449/expert-gyan-india-china-bhutan/
 

indiatester

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Six Expert Views on How India Should Look at the Latest Border Stand-Off With China
China and India have been engaged in a standoff in the Doklam area near the Bhutan tri-junction for about 20 days now after a Chinese army’s construction party came to build a road. While the Chinese have asked India to withdraw its troops from the area as a pre-condition for any resolution, India has accused the Chinese of directly violating an agreement between the two countries.

The Wire contacted experts on China who have either dealt directly with the relationship or are prominent academics. Most agree that the Chinese action is aimed at changing the status quo at the tri-junction, a point indicated in the official Indian statement. At the same time, there is also consensus on the need to carefully handle the situation, since it involves Bhutan, India’s closest ally in the neighbourhood.

‘Good relations can only be maintained on the basis of mutual sensitivity’


Nirupama Rao. Credit: Reuters

Nirupama Rao
Former foreign secretary and
former Indian ambassador to China


§

Was a major border incident between India and China expected?

The last few months have exposed the fragilities and strains in the India-China relationship. The equilibrium is already pitched at a low level. There has been no visible attempt to defuse tensions as the temperature has risen steadily. India has some genuine grievances which China has shown little understanding of. The Chinese handling of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor issue is one example. Another is the Masood Azhar UN listing. These are issues that affect us in a very real and tangible way. Good relations can only be maintained on the basis of mutual sensitivity.

Why has China roped in Bhutan into its dispute with India?

The dispute in the Doklam area is known. It is not a new phenomenon. But China’s road construction is a deliberate move to trigger a response from Bhutan and from India. Through its actions, China seeks to impose its own definition of the tri-junction point of the boundary between Bhutan, China and India (Sikkim). The move has serious security ramifications for both Bhutan and India’s defence interests.

With Bhutan now part of the India-China stand-off, how should India handle Bhutanese sensitivities?

Bhutan and India enjoy the closest relationship of mutual trust and confidence and enduring friendship. There is absolutely no controversy about military-to-military cooperation and understanding between our two countries. India holds Bhutanese sovereignty as sacred and inviolable. Article 2 of the Friendship Treaty signed by India and Bhutan in 2007 states: “In keeping with the abiding ties of close friendship and cooperation between Bhutan and India, the Government of the Kingdom of Bhutan and the Government of the Republic of India shall cooperate closely with each other on issues relating to their national interests.”

India and Bhutan have a common perception of their strategic concerns and cooperate closely on defence and security issues and border management including in capacity building and training of Bhutanese personnel.

Does the reference to the 1890 Anglo-Chinese treaty by China portend a more difficult situation with regard to Sikkim?

My own impression is that the present stand-off has more to do with the Doklam plateau and with Chinese moves to alter the tri-junction point. But tensions of this sort must be managed and defused carefully. Otherwise, they tend to spread to other disputed pockets of the border and this is obviously not beneficial for the overall bilateral relationship.


Can we assume that border incidents are sanctioned directly from Beijing?


Local PLA commanders work according to the template handed down by their superiors in terms of definition of what areas are disputed. In the Doklam area it is difficult to believe that they are behaving thus on their own initiative. There is a structure and pattern to Chinese military activity especially when it comes to these sensitive border pockets. The commandments are handed down, in my view.


Are there domestic motivations for China escalating the issue this time?

China’s assertiveness and muscular behaviour on territorial questions today draws strength from its newfound economic and military capabilities and its imaging as a near-superpower. The leadership and the party have kept memories of past “humiliations” at the hand of foreign powers in previous centuries alive in the minds of the population, and this in turn triggers hyper-nationalistic reactions that make it all the more difficult to work for reasonable and fair solutions to border problems with neighbours.

As China has consolidated its hold on peripheral areas like Tibet, its approach to old border disputes has only grown more rigid and unyielding. In the early years of the People’s Republic, I believe that Chinese leaders were less rigid in their approach since this was still an active phase of nation-building and China was inclined to take a more realistic and pragmatic position on the issue of border settlements. Unfortunately for us, we did not read sufficiently between the lines in that formative period of our bilateral relations. The rest is history.

‘The Chinese are unilaterally changing the tri-junction point’


Ashok Kantha. Credit: Institute of Chinese Studies

Ashok KanthaDirector of the Institute of Chinese Studies and former Indian ambassador to China (2014-2016)


§

Was a major border incident between India and China expected?


We can only speculate on the Chinese motives. However, China’s action in the Doklam plateau can be seen as part of its assertive behaviour of pursuing its contested territorial claims through muscular action. You can see a certain pattern in what is happening in the South China Sea, East China Sea and elsewhere, in Chinese pronouncements that it will not surrender an inch of its territory and its characterisation of those territorial claims as its core interests. The Chinese are stating that their claims over Doklam plateau are ‘indisputable’, though they are fully aware that Bhutan believes that this area belongs to them. We should look at the Chinese action in this light, rather than merely ascribing it to other developments in India-China relations, though those developments do provide the context.

Why has China roped Bhutan into its dispute with India?

China has certain territorial claims in Bhutan. There have been creeping encroachments since 1988. But there is no permanent presence of the PLA or of Chinese graziers in Doklam. For the first time, the Chinese are constructing a motorable road from Dokola towards the Bhutan army camp at Zompelri. It might be their assessment that Bhutan would not be able to resist. Clearly, the Bhutanese are not in position to make the PLA troops stop construction, even though they have conveyed to the Chinese side, both on the ground and through diplomatic channels, that the construction of the road inside Bhutanese territory was in violation of earlier agreements. The Chinese might also have assessed that India will not step into this situation. They want to change the facts on the ground through unilateral action, which they have done elsewhere as well.

For us, there are two other issues which cause direct concern to India. The Chinese are unilaterally changing the tri-junction point. This is in violation of the understanding we have reached with them in 2012. As the MEA statement has noted, the construction of the road will involve a significant change of status quo with serious security implications for India.

With Bhutan now part of the India-China stand-off, how should India handle Bhutanese sensitivities?

The Bhutanese government has made it clear, through the démarche made by the Bhutanese ambassador in New Delhi, their communications on the ground and then the statement issued by the Royal Government of Bhutan on June 29, that what the Chinese are doing by constructing a road inside Bhutanese territory is in direct violation of the agreements of 1988 and 1998, which required China to maintain the status quo as before March 1959, pending a final boundary settlement. They have also expressed the hope that China will restore the status quo ante of June 16, 2017. The Bhutanese position is very clear.


On our side, we have a military presence in Bhutan through
IMTRAT, etc. This is under bilateral understandings between India and Bhutan. It is not new. Second, there is very close coordination and consultation between India and Bhutan on the current issue.

At the same time, you would have noticed that the tone and contents of the MEA statement are very measured and balanced. I believe it takes into account Bhutan’s sensitivities as a small country which does not want to take on its giant northern neighbour. The government of India is seeking amicable resolution of the present stand-off situation, eschewing any polemics. This is despite the strong language of statements emanating from the Chinese Foreign Office and Ministry of Defence and China’s decision to expand differences by suspending the Kailash-Mansarovar yatra through Nathu La, even though they are aware of how the issue of yatra resonates at the popular level.

Does the reference to the 1890 Anglo-Chinese treaty by China portend a more difficult situation with regard to Sikkim?

India and China are broadly in agreement on the boundary in the Sikkim sector. We agree on the basis of alignment, which is the highest watershed in the area, but both sides are fully aware that more negotiations are required among the special representatives to fix the alignment of the boundary on maps and also demarcate it on the ground. The Chinese side is cognizant of significant differences with regard to the tri-junction point, as can also be seen from the maps of India, China and Bhutan. As the MEA statement has pointed out, the Chinese have specifically agreed that the tri-junction point will be finalised through consultations among the concerned countries. There are also differences on interpreting the watershed boundary between India and China in the Sikkim sector. There have been incidents in the past due to different interpretations of the boundary in northern and eastern Sikkim.

Are there domestic motivations for China escalating the issue this time?

I would not like to speculate on the motives behind this specific event, but we can look at patterns and drivers of behaviour in general. Nationalism has clearly emerged as a strong force in both the domestic politics of China and its external behaviour. In domestic polity, it is one of the main planks giving legitimacy to the Communist Party of China. In the external domain, I have earlier referred to the narrative of not giving up a single inch of territory.

I am hopeful that the stand-off situation will be resolved, though I do not know how long it will take. Look at Depsang in 2013 and Chumar and Demchok in 2014, we did manage to sort out tricky situations. It took some three-four weeks, but a solution was found. The present situation is, of course, different as it also involves a third country, Bhutan. China should pay heed to Bhutan’s request to restore the status quo as before June 16, 2017 and seek to find a solution through dialogue.

I believe that the Chinese are also interested in maintaining peace and tranquillity in the border areas. So they would not like to escalate the situation beyond a point. The Indian side has no desire to engage in polemics or step up tension. There are a number of mechanisms available – border personnel meetings and continuous and fairly close dialogue at the diplomatic level. So there is no communication gap. Hopefully, it can be resolved at the working level. I believe bilateral talks are underway between India and China, Bhutan and China and India and Bhutan.

With regard to Chinese statement demanding Indian troop withdrawal in exchange for talks, I will put that as an opening gambit. Dialogue is already going on.

‘Main Chinese motive seems to be to drive a wedge between India and Bhutan’



R. S. Kalha. Credit: Twitter

R.S. KalhaFormer secretary (West), MEA


§

Was a major border incident between India and China expected?

I do not think that there is a link between the present incident and our other issues with China on which we have differences, sometimes rather acute; although it must be admitted that these other differences do vitiate the atmosphere and foster general distrust.

Why has China roped Bhutan into its border dispute with India?


We have an understanding with Bhutan that any attack on Bhutanese sovereignty will be considered as an attack on India. Indian troops in Bhutan are basically on a training mission. Naturally, we have to be careful to respect Bhutanese sentiments and its sensitivities. Small countries have to be treated with extra care.


With Bhutan now part of the India-China stand-off, how should India handle Bhutanese sensitivities?

Bhutan is a small country sandwiched between two giants. It cannot sustain or withstand Chinese pressure alone. The main motive of the Chinese seems to be to drive a wedge between India and Bhutan, with whom we have excellent bilateral relations. Do recall Bhutan was the only South Asian country that stood by India when we decided to boycott the BRI summit in Beijing. From time to time, Bhutan has received Chinese blandishments to de-link from India and thus receive not only extensive economic help but also a better deal on the Sino-Bhutan boundary. Bhutan has steadfastly refused.

Does reference to 1890 Anglo-Chinese treaty by China portend a more difficult situation with regard to Sikkim?

Way back on March 22, 1959, (Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal) Nehru wrote to (Chinese Premier) Zhou Enlai that some parts of the Sino-Indian boundary was settled by the treaty. He cited the 1890 Anglo-Chinese Convention on the Sikkim-Tibet boundary as an example and urged the Chinese to honour it. Zhou in reply on September 8 refused to discuss the Sikkim-Tibet boundary, saying that it was outside the scope of present discussions. Subsequently, the Chinese in a note on December 26, 1959 confirmed the validity of the 1890 convention and stated that there was no dispute in this sector.

Can we always assume that border incidents are sanctioned directly from Beijing?

In my experience of dealing with the Chinese for over 15 years, including leading the Indian side for the crucial boundary sub group, I have never experienced a situation where the Chinese PLA takes steps without approval.

Are there domestic motivations for China escalating the issue this time?

I am sure that there would be someone within the party who would question why a small country like Bhutan or even India is still not accepting China’s version of the border. If you have adopted the platform of nationalism, then there will always be the temptation to make others toe your line by taking a tougher stance.

‘China misjudged India’s response to road building at Doklam’


Claude Arpi. Credit: Twitter

Claude Arpi,India-based French expert on India, China and Tibet


§

Was a major border incident between India and China expected?


China just ‘tried her luck’ and started building a road on a territory which is disputed, thinking that India would not defend Bhutan. It was a wrong judgment from Beijing’s part.


Why has China roped Bhutan into its border dispute with India?


It is not a border dispute with India. It is the dispute between Bhutan and China for which 24 rounds of talks have already been conducted. Joint surveys have been done. China broke her undertaking not to change the status quo.


With Bhutan now part of the India-China stand-off, how should India protect Bhutanese sensitivities?


What is the problem of Bhutan seeking India’s help to stop China to change the status quo? The entry of Indian troops was done in consultation with the Bhutanese government. For India, it had too important strategic implications to let go.


Does the reference to the 1890 Anglo-Chinese treaty by China portend a more difficult situation with regard to Sikkim?


The 1890 was an ‘unequal treaty’. It dealt with the borders of Tibet and Bhutan who were not even informed that the issue was discussed. It was the time of the Great Game, China conveniently forgets that treaties/discussions/correspondence since then.


Can we automatically assume now that border incidents are sanctioned directly by Beijing and not the stand-alone actions of border commanders?

Perhaps it happened in Chumar in 2014, but not this time. The decision to enter in a disputed territory came from Beijing.

Are there domestic motivations for China escalating the issue this time?


Yes, (Chinese President) Xi is visiting Hong Kong, and the 19th Congress is coming (and the 90th anniversary of the PLA on August 1 in between). The declarations of the spokespersons of Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Ministry of National Defence show that it was for national consumption.
Why to insult the Indian army chief because he spoke of two-and-a-half fronts, which is a fact. China too has an ‘Indian front’ which is being reinforced, i.e. new tanks north of the Chumbi Valley.

https://thewire.in/154449/expert-gyan-india-china-bhutan/
A surprisingly Indian view from thewire. I would have not be surprised to see a few anti Modi rants.
 

sorcerer

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A surprisingly Indian view from thewire. I would have not be surprised to see a few anti Modi rants.

Actually I have not posted the way the WIRE ended it.
It was all pro chinese with some chinese think tanks towards the end of the article.
The funny part was the last part in the last part of article has all questions and confusion.
The usual wire tactic.

Just like WIRE did..I extracted what was necessary from wire..the glorious part before they pitch in the propaganda and posted it here..
Anyway those who want to read propaganda can click the link and read it.

Wire started the article with prominent people and ended it with "think tanks". :D
We just want prominent views which suits our national interest.

Consume the healthy part and discard the dirty part for wire editor for his wet dream.
 

hit&run

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By not a threat, I mean in an offensive way. They have a long time ago managed to get the numbers and equipment to give India a good fight in a scenario where India is the aggressor. However, with China giving them unconditional support, investing in their country and doing joint patrols and exercises, I think we might be faced with Kargil 2.0 but this time with a Pakistani Army that is much better equipped logistically and equipment wise bolstered with Chinese support in the international diplomatic arena.
Veer, What was the end result and who had the last laugh in Kargil ? There is post by Shiv Sir, @bennedose at BRF where he has explained how PAF having all the best (generation ahead) fighter planes couldn't do a diddly squat.

Knowing few names of weapons and remembering the caliber of different guns do not make one a good soldier let alone an expert who understand war.

Today Pakistan is lending its sovereignty to highest bidder, is almost a failed state. They are maintaining a parity at the cost of its people where India for all good reasons is doing hard balancing. As of now India is the only country who is spending more on infrastructure than defence.

With such a large force the luxury of having latest weapons becomes a matter of hard negotiations and takes unusually long time to come. The corruption we all know won't go away regardless of any Government in power.

[I remember many years ago visiting one place where some people were unloading fuel drums, on asking the guy told me that my Taiya Ji's Sala is in Navy they always send us spare fuel to run our generators. On another instance I was shown a room where officers seal purchased apparel for army in a room. What they they after when officers are gone remove the whole wall including the door to change it with cheap quality of cloth and sell better quality to someone else. (Hiding Names and Place)]In my understanding the losses due corruptions are calculated in budget. So the picture is not that grim :tongue2:

Coming back to main point. India is lacking offencive doctrine that relies on preemption and war making. Unlike buying weapons which current government is spending far more better and faster than previous government the offencive doctrine require plenty of political resolve and changes in constitution as well. You will be surprised to know that India can not even put a bounty on any of these Pakistani terrorists neither can assign death because there is no such provision in constitution or special law.

Our intelligentsia and media has normalized terrorism so much that they do not see it as a step of escalation ladder to full scale war. Any sane nation would see a terrorist attack as strategic attack but from COAS to NSA they call for tactical response.

Even if we think Terrorism should be dealt with terrorism the old fashioned way when we were teaching them a lesson for their support to Punjab insurgency, the current government for some strange reasons is not able replicate the same and the result is visible to us in Kashmir. Today we are fighting the war on our grounds, when the enemy is operating from its safe havens.

Again, weapons can be bought and made but we need dedicated war making military think Tank given more powers and resources. Doval is already looking fatigued, is more busy sorting things politically for PM
 
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indiatester

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Actually I have not posted the way the WIRE ended it.
It was all pro chinese with some chinese think tanks towards the end of the article.
The funny part was the last part in the last part of article has all questions and confusion.
The usual wire tactic.

Just like WIRE did..I extracted what was necessary from wire..the glorious part before they pitch in the propaganda and posted it here..
Anyway those who want to read propaganda can click the link and read it.

Wire started the article with prominent people and ended it with "think tanks". :D
We just want prominent views which suits our national interest.

Consume the healthy part and discard the dirty part for wire editor for his wet dream.
Ah that explains it. I was very surprised by what was posted.
I would have expected even Nirupama Rao to have had some pro Chinese bent, but she surprised me first. So I thought, even thewire had some decent folks with patriotism in them. Then you explained the editing :)
 
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