LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[rohit b3]

For 73 Mark 1A + 10 trainers, at ₹250c-₹275c per unit, about 25000crores for the aircraft & rest for separate "support package". They better ensure 70-80% availability... 75% of Arjun tanks got grounded for lack of spares.

They already wasted months to reduce overall price from 50kcrores to 45kcrores.
Orders to be placed within the next few weeks, then they will deliver after 36 months that is 2023.
Delivery of 16FOC+8trainers should end by 2020 (... maybe 2021), then what?

It will be delivered at 8 a year starting 2020(or Dec 2019 at most) followed by 2021 and then 2022.
They wont ramp up production knowing they would lie idle for a year or 2.

 

[Bleh]

But I realize lately IAF doesn't want a smaller airframe in huge numbers and has selected mwf as the optimum size for backbone of airforce.

Well, their "optimal fighter" isn't coming until 2025. In 2023, Mark 1A will start production & Mark 2 will have first flight (atleast 2025 until LSP induction).

Another squadron or two of FOC Tejas wouldn't hurt for the time being... it's better than anything in IAF inventory, other than Rafales & Super Sukhoi, in almost every way.

It will be delivered at 8 a year starting 2020(or Dec 2019 at most) followed by 2021 and then 2022.
They wont ramp up production knowing they would lie idle for a year or 2.

...not if they mane to bag an order, domestic or foreign.
HAL once mentioned they'd alter the hawk line to Tejas line by March 2020.

 

[lcafanboy]

It will be delivered at 8 a year starting 2020(or Dec 2019 at most) followed by 2021 and then 2022.
They wont ramp up production knowing they would lie idle for a year or 2.

Wrong.
They are going to deliver16 by March 2020 or till June 2020 all foc standards, 16 by March 2021 and so on. The production rate has stabilized at 16/yr now. Rest all 18 are trainers after which Mk1A will start rolling out from early 2023 at 19/yr. If we get any export order then Nasik su30mki line will be converted into LCA line and simultaneously it will be ramped up to pump out 40+ Tejas/yr in various configurations Mk1A, trainers, sports, MWF, naval MWF...

 

[Indibomber]

Which base is this? Got tired of searching in GE./

Hindon base I used Tom Tom maps

 

[Bhurki]

Another squadron or two of FOC Tejas wouldn't hurt for the time being... it's better than anything in IAF inventory, other than Rafales & Super Sukhoi, in almost every way.

I'm afraid IAF doesn't think so. If it did, it wouldn't have bought 21 mig 29 upg from russia and rather would've invested that money into tejas since the program for 1a is now almost formally contracted

 

[Bleh]

I'm afraid IAF doesn't think so. If it did, it wouldn't have bought 21 mig 29 upg from russia and rather would've invested that money into tejas since the program for 1a is now almost formally contracted

Although I'm not sure what they're thinking, I am pretty sure that's not what they're thinking... Derby/Python armed Tejas has low enough RCS to take out any Mig-29 (maybe even Su-30) carrying R77 before WVR range, even after which is it'll be quite 50:50 due to Tejas's superior HMD.

The buying of mothballed Mig-29 for discounted price is a very good move & will be another source of filling the IAF hangers quickly.
But it should be alongside Tejas induction, not an either-or with the Tejas. Let's wait & see what happens.

 

[Bhurki]

The buying of mothballed Mig-29 for discounted price is a very good move & will be another source of filling the IAF hangers quickly.

How's it a good move when you get a less capable aircraft( your assumption) and move close to a billion $ away from India for a unit price not that different from intended tejas? That too when we need more and more numbers of tejas in order to amortize the high fixed costs of the production line.(without curtailing production speed which again increases the costs)
Certainly there's something in mig29 upg that tejas coudn't offer.

 

[Armand2REP]

I'm afraid IAF doesn't think so. If it did, it wouldn't have bought 21 mig 29 upg from russia and rather would've invested that money into tejas since the program for 1a is now almost formally contracted

IAF didn't buy 21 UPG from Russia, it is negotiating for Cold War scrap to part out for spares to the current fleet.

 

[Bhurki]

IAF didn't buy 21 UPG from Russia, it is negotiating for Cold War scrap to part out for spares to the current fleet.

https://www.aninews.in/news/nationa...9-sukhoi-30-fighter-jets20190829172451/?amp=1
"As per plans, the MiG-29s on offer would be of the latest upgraded MiG-29s which are already in service with the IAF. The radars and other equipment on the planes would also be of the latest standards."

I don't think IAF would like to cannibalize any airframes with 0 flying hours which are upgraded to standards that are operational at present.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

IAF didn't buy 21 UPG from Russia, it is negotiating for Cold War scrap to part out for spares to the current fleet.

The second lot of 13 Mig-29s offered to India in addition to the 21 basic air frames slated above reportedly were manufactured in 2008 and it is believed by many in India that it was part of the Algerian MiG-export fiasco which was supplied in 2007 and returned by the customer in 2008 after Algeria complained that 15 supplied MiG-29 SMT air superiority jet fighters were of “inferior quality.”

Russia finally agreed to take back all fully manufactured 15 MiG’s that had been delivered to Algeria and remaining 21 air frame fuselage structures which were already manufactured by Mikoyan in order to fulfill the Algerian order of 34 MiG-29SMT/UBTs worth $1.3 billion, were later kept in storage. While Russian media later claimed that all 34 MiG-29SMT/UBTs will be absolved into the Russian air force but it looks like it never happened and this excessive Mig-29s in storage from 2008 onwards are the same ones that have been offered to India as a stop-gap emergency purchase for its falling squadron levels



*the frames are good manufactured recently. It's engines and old parts willl be replaced. In cheap it's a good deal. IAF will these jets.

 

[Bhurki]

*the frames are good manufactured recently. It's engines and old parts willl be replaced. In cheap it's a good deal. IAF will these jets.

I never said its a bad deal. I am for this deal.
I just intended to get the fact across to the gentleman saying tejas is the best aircraft barring MKI and rafale that mig29 upg is actually a much better aircraft than tejas for the same price, since it an entirely different weight class (medium vs light), provides higher grade of capabilities ( higher bomb load for more range and endurance) and fits well into the already established MRO facilites for this aircraft in IAF.
Note: I am not considering the strategic autonomy of tejas production in this comparison.

 

[Pazhassiraja]

Is there a proposal to upgrade LCA Mark 1 to Mark 1A standards some time down the line? Technically is it feasible?

 

[IndianHawk]

Is there a proposal to upgrade LCA Mark 1 to Mark 1A standards some time down the line? Technically is it feasible?

Afaik all mk1 will be converted to mk1a during mid life upgrade. It is technically solid because airframe of mk1 and mk1a are same.

Only differences are in internal.

 

[IndianHawk]

Btw I read on BRF that a tender is out for pylon based Maws for mk1a. So it seems mk1a itself will have both spj and Maws increasing its survivability multifold.

 

[Bhurki]

Is there a proposal to upgrade LCA Mark 1 to Mark 1A standards some time down the line? Technically is it feasible?

Other than adding inflight refueling probe, it requires minimal work. Elta to Aesa. Addition of SPJ.

 

[IndianHawk]

Other than adding inflight refueling probe, it requires minimal work. Elta to Aesa. Addition of SPJ.

In-flight probe is already there in FOC mk1.

 

[Bhurki]

Btw I read on BRF that a tender is out for pylon based Maws for mk1a. So it seems mk1a itself will have both spj and Maws increasing its survivability multifold.

Whoa.. Didn't know tejas FOC doesn't have maws. Wonder how they were planning to counter passive guidance seeking missiles.

 

[Bhurki]

In-flight probe is already there in FOC mk1.

Did it occur to you i was thinking otherwise?

 

[Bleh]

IAF didn't buy 21 UPG from Russia, it is negotiating for Cold War scrap to part out for spares to the current fleet.

Oh, they are going to buy them all right... & not for scraps.

How's it a good move when you get a less capable aircraft( your assumption) and move close to a billion $ away from India for a unit price not that different from intended tejas? That too when we need more and more numbers of tejas in order to amortize the high fixed costs of the production line.(without curtailing production speed which again increases the costs)
Certainly there's something in mig29 upg that tejas coudn't offer.

I just said why... They'd be getting Mig-29 UPG, from Russia simultaneously as HAL delivers Tejas.
India need to bolster is numbers quickly, but was talking about post-2021 when the Tejas orders (16 FOC & 8 trainers) could be completed.

Techwise it's of comparable quality to Paki F-16 or Jf-17 Block2. It holds advantage over Tejas in top-speed/rate-of-climb while Tejas has 1000kg higher payload for 2 less hardpoints, have much lower maintenance cost & expected to have much higher availability. UPG has 300km more range (internal fuel) but only 1 wet hardpoint, making both their ferry range 2100km.
Also IAF started with 80 in the '80s & they created themselves to 62 now, IN isn't too happy either.

Otherwise it holds avatars in range & speed

 

[Bhurki]

I just said why... They'd be getting Mig-29 UPG, from Russia simultaneously as HAL delivers Tejas.

I like your emphasis on simultaneously, but you see, we're kind of underfunded at IAF, and so out of options to branch out on various fighter lines.
Any funds that you allot to a comparable aircraft directly takes a bite out of tejas program. So if you're to allow tejas to become successful( low cost, high numbers) you need to divert max attention, funds to it. The fact that IAF chose any new Migs at all means they see way more value in it than we do from our pov.
Also ( unrelated to main line of discussion)
Some tech spec comparison -
Tejas at the payload you say ( assuming 5500 kg ) has only 1500 kg left for fuel and results in about 200 km combat range.
Also at that payload its t/w ratio of just 0.65 .
Mig29 upg has the same payload capacity ( not a ton less) while combat range of about 500 km while carrying all of it. Also at mtow it has t/w of 0.85.