LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Bleh]

@Indx TechStyle @IndianHawk @porky_kicker
Can Tejas, now or in future, fire R-77 or Novator KS-172 (what even happened to that project) or A2G missiles like KH-59?
Some pages show that they can, but i haven't found any concrete confirmation.

 

[uoftotaku]

R-77 not planned for Tejas. Original idea was for Astra but IAF seems to have fixed its eyes on i-Derby-ER instead

KS-172 was only ever planned for SU-30 (its a massive missile) but project has long been shelved..never got past drawing board.

KH-59 is in service in very limited numbers and only integrated with SU-30. No plans to have broader implementation in the fleet. Performance is not as advertised and interface is clunky so never bought in numbers

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Original idea was for Astra but IAF seems to have fixed its eyes on i-Derby-ER instead

Not to you but everybody who is concerned with progress of india made weapons.....
This Seems to be DAIIIIIILLLLLY STORY OF OOOOUUUR ARMED FORCES.
Any new news on astra mk-2?
Or are we waiting for derby-er or ir or whatever induction? And then again putting astra mk-2 or 3 or 4 family development and MORE IMPORTANTLY INDUCTION in cold storage just like arjun tank family was destroyed.
But astra is getting inducted so derby-ir or er or whatever is to fulfill the roll of r-27 series missiles for tejas.... I think.
But then go for derby-ir because it's range is higher.
Why inducting astra mk-1? toooo many support things and counter things I can write here but don't want to write it (lazy attitude).
But my final conclusion is this, Astra mk-2 and sfdr is the future of missiles but PLEASE GOD SAVE INDIA from any similar future derby or r series missiles.

 

[uoftotaku]

Not to you but everybody who is concerned with progress of india made weapons.....
This Seems to be DAIIIIIILLLLLY STORY OF OOOOUUUR ARMED FORCES.
Any new news on astra mk-2?
Or are we waiting for derby-er or ir or whatever induction? And then again putting astra mk-2 or 3 or 4 family development and MORE IMPORTANTLY INDUCTION in cold storage just like arjun tank family was destroyed.
But astra is getting inducted so derby-ir or er or whatever is to fulfill the roll of r-27 series missiles for tejas.... I think.
But then go for derby-ir because it's range is higher.
Why inducting astra mk-1? toooo many support things and counter things I can write here but don't want to write it (lazy attitude).
But my final conclusion is this, Astra mk-2 and sfdr is the future of missiles but PLEASE GOD SAVE INDIA from any similar future derby or r series missiles.

Govt has already made it clear that Astra program is the long term future BVR AAM for the IAF. No two ways about it. However it remains a fact that Astra is incompatible with the current Tejas fire control system and radar combination. Derby is only an option for now due to selection of the Elta radar and its accompanying jammer suite. Once Uttam and desi SPG / MAWS becomes the default, Astra follows.

It is in DRDO's court now to ensure that the program is taken down the right development path in a timely manner. For now they seem to be doing fine on the missile front but there are concurrent programs like Uttam which need to speed up to ensure that there are no gaps.

 

[porky_kicker]

@Indx TechStyle @IndianHawk @porky_kicker
Can Tejas, now or in future, fire R-77 or Novator KS-172 (what even happened to that project) or A2G missiles like KH-59?
Some pages show that they can, but i haven't found any concrete confirmation.

That would require the permission of the OEMs of both the missile and the onboard radar and their subsequent cooperation towards integration.

And also provided that the missile is aerodynamically compatible with the aircraft in the first place.

 

[Bleh]

...............,...................

 

[IndianHawk]

@Indx TechStyle @IndianHawk @porky_kicker
Can Tejas, now or in future, fire R-77 or Novator KS-172 (what even happened to that project) or A2G missiles like KH-59?
Some pages show that they can, but i haven't found any concrete confirmation.

Tejas doesn't need r77 as it will be integrated with I derby ER and astra. Both outrange r77.

KS-172 I have no info. But rvv BD is a new version which we might see on su30 MKI as AWACS killer.
It will probably not go to lca.

A2G since lca can carry bramhos NG (1500KG)
So it can carry any A2G missile weighing less than 1500 kg.

Lca is our own platform. Even with Israeli radar we have all integration source code. So we can integrate any weaponary with it. No issues there.

If IAF wants all Russian weaponry can be integrated ( bramhos Ng will anyway be there so will sfdr in future). All Israeli kit is a given including derby ER , spice , ew pod , LDP etc.

European weapons can be integrated in they allow.
We have no issues on integration.

 

[IndianHawk]

Govt has already made it clear that Astra program is the long term future BVR AAM for the IAF. No two ways about it. However it remains a fact that Astra is incompatible with the current Tejas fire control system and radar combination. Derby is only an option for now due to selection of the Elta radar and its accompanying jammer suite. Once Uttam and desi SPG / MAWS becomes the default, Astra follows.

It is in DRDO's court now to ensure that the program is taken down the right development path in a timely manner. For now they seem to be doing fine on the missile front but there are concurrent programs like Uttam which need to speed up to ensure that there are no gaps.

Astra is not incompatible with elta radars. It doesn't depend on Uttam either.

In su30mki Astra is integrated with bars radars . So it has open interface and can be integrated and will be integrated with lca mk1/mk1a.

But it will take time integration followed by testing. 2-3 years minimum before it becomes an operational missile for lca.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Nobody buys aircraft listening to rumours. They check it , test it and fly it. And lca excells at that.

The point about domestic orders is true. Without mass output price will remain high .

MK1 A will be a good improvement in terms of Weight, Maneuverity, Electronics and network centric capabilities and A to A engagements. It will have lower RCS as well.

 

[uoftotaku]

Astra is not incompatible with elta radars. It doesn't depend on Uttam either.

In su30mki Astra is integrated with bars radars . So it has open interface and can be integrated and will be integrated with lca mk1/mk1a.

But it will take time integration followed by testing. 2-3 years minimum before it becomes an operational missile for lca.

Currently as far as I know, there are no plans to try integration with the Elta suite on Tejas. It was integrated initially with the SU-30 because the original test kits had the Ukrainian sourced seekers which were easier to mate with the Bars. The indigenous seeker versions do have open interface but will definitely require a lot of time to integrate as you point out.

Elta suite being only an interim solution (for now) for a limited number of Mk.1 and Mk.1A birds, IAF brass has vetoed the suggestion as it will (in their view) take too long while Derby is available immediately. Astra will only get on the Tejas once Uttam is ready in their estimation. Which is probably only when Mk.II / MWF comes online (if they allow it to see light of day that is)

We will likely only see Astra go primarily on the SU-30 fleet for now, replacing the legacy R-77 stocks as they expire.

 

[Bleh]

And also provided that the missile is aerodynamically compatible with the aircraft in the first place.

Tejas doesn't need r77 as it will be integrated with I derby ER and astra. Both outrange r77.

KS-172 I have no info. But rvv BD is a new version which we might see on su30 MKI as AWACS killer.
It will probably not go to lca.

A2G since lca can carry bramhos NG (1500KG)
So it can carry any A2G missile weighing less than 1500 kg.

Lca is our own platform. Even with Israeli radar we have all integration source code. So we can integrate any weaponary with it. No issues there.

If IAF wants all Russian weaponry can be integrated ( bramhos Ng will anyway be there so will sfdr in future). All Israeli kit is a given including derby ER , spice , ew pod , LDP etc.

European weapons can be integrated in they allow.
We have no issues on integration.

Speaking of aerodynamics... Do you, or anyone else, knows the difference between performance of the

The unlike Mirage-2000 or Mig-21, the train-seater version of Tejas has the tandem seat raised quote a bit, like Su-27 & Su-30. What sort of drag or vortex it creates & what's its overall effects on the design?

 

[IndianHawk]

Not to you but everybody who is concerned with progress of india made weapons.....
This Seems to be DAIIIIIILLLLLY STORY OF OOOOUUUR ARMED FORCES.
Any new news on astra mk-2?
Or are we waiting for derby-er or ir or whatever induction? And then again putting astra mk-2 or 3 or 4 family development and MORE IMPORTANTLY INDUCTION in cold storage just like arjun tank family was destroyed.
But astra is getting inducted so derby-ir or er or whatever is to fulfill the roll of r-27 series missiles for tejas.... I think.
But then go for derby-ir because it's range is higher.
Why inducting astra mk-1? toooo many support things and counter things I can write here but don't want to write it (lazy attitude).
But my final conclusion is this, Astra mk-2 and sfdr is the future of missiles but PLEASE GOD SAVE INDIA from any similar future derby or r series missiles.

It's all very straightforward.

Astra mk1 almost ready in limited production will be integrated with lca . Range 100km+ .
But single motor . So nez is less ( comparable to aim120c7 ).

Derby ER . Operational now with Israel and Columbian airforce. Already interfaced with elta 2052 aesa. Dual motors range classified but may be 130-160km ( as dual motors go)
Since second motor kicks in near target its nez is much better than aim 120 c5/c7 almost comparable to aim120d. Still less than meteor though).

So debry ER is in different class to Astra. Hence both are needed for lca. Astra to make numbers , derby ER to give an edge against Porkistan even if porky get aim120c7 or 120d in future.

Now enter Astra mk2 which is Indian derby ER equivalent. It will have dual pulse motor which will take its range to 140-160km with nez superior to aim120c7.
But it is under development and will be ready only by 2023 or 2025. Hence derby ER purchase .

SFDR is solid fuel ramjet project which will deliver meteor level missile by 2027-28. With ranges 250km+ and nez of almost 60-70km+ .

But it will be very costly. Hence airforce will operate a combo of ramjet missile + dual pulse+ single motor missile.

In future single motor missiles will be phased out and it will be combo of ramjet for edge and dual pulse for numbers.

 

[IndianHawk]

Currently as far as I know, there are no plans to try integration with the Elta suite on Tejas. It was integrated initially with the SU-30 because the original test kits had the Ukrainian sourced seekers which were easier to mate with the Bars. The indigenous seeker versions do have open interface but will definitely require a lot of time to integrate as you point out.

Elta suite being only an interim solution (for now) for a limited number of Mk.1 and Mk.1A birds, IAF brass has vetoed the suggestion as it will (in their view) take too long while Derby is available immediately. Astra will only get on the Tejas once Uttam is ready in their estimation. Which is probably only when Mk.II / MWF comes online (if they allow it to see light of day that is)

We will likely only see Astra go primarily on the SU-30 fleet for now, replacing the legacy R-77 stocks as they expire.

The whole point of having indegenios seeker is so that we can integrate it to which ever system we desire. Initial seeker was agat ( Russian?).
But Indian seeker is flying since 2017 and is well integrated with bars.

Also IAF is on record saying that Astra will be integrated with lca. Now it takes both time and money to execute so it can be delayed but it will happen. Not just that Astra will go on even mig29 and mirages too.

All weaponry can be integrated with modern radars given OEM of missile and radars are willing. We have integration related codes of both bars and elta radars.

Examples are numerous . Russian missile worked with our mirage. Our jaguars which have elta radar also have American harpoon missile.

Su30mki with Russian radar has Astra. And so on.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Kaveri as of now is a decent first attempt, but F404-IN20 is far better... best in its weight class for the thrust produced.

Indigenous content of the Tejas was 59.7% by value and 75.5% by number of line replaceable units in 2016. So, let India concentrate on the 70-119kn class engine for MWF & AMCA. Mark 1/A ia going to have limited orders anyway.

When we designed Kaveri, we did not have certain technologies. So we designed kaveri accordingly. Now we have much better blade technology and thermal barrier technology so definitely we can design engine with much more efficiency, i.e with higher temperature and high compression ratio. so definitely, it is the time to redesign kaveri and make HTFE 35 for Jaguar. I would always prefer to go with Rolls Royce EJ series which powers Eurofighter. Next variant will have power of 72 KN dry with 103 Kn afterburner, It can power AMCA as well. So my preference shall always be Rolls Royce. Even if we try our own, We can get a good engine in decade time. This is the time to pursue it fast.

 

[uoftotaku]

The whole point of having indegenios seeker is so that we can integrate it to which ever system we desire. Initial seeker was agat ( Russian?).
But Indian seeker is flying since 2017 and is well integrated with bars.

Also IAF is on record saying that Astra will be integrated with lca. Now it takes both time and money to execute so it can be delayed but it will happen. Not just that Astra will go on even mig29 and mirages too.

All weaponry can be integrated with modern radars given OEM of missile and radars are willing. We have integration related codes of both bars and elta radars.

Examples are numerous . Russian missile worked with our mirage. Our jaguars which have elta radar also have American harpoon missile.

Su30mki with Russian radar has Astra. And so on.

Original Agat seeker is Ukrainian, in fact its the same seeker thats on the legacy R-77 (which is also made by Ukrainian OEM Vympel)

Anyway, you have already pointed out in your earlier post, the whole idea right now is to do incremental steps. Astra will come in some years, Derby goes on for now since its immediately available. Astra Mk.II is however much closer to reality than believed, DRDO learned a lot from the dual-pulse motor it makes for the Barak-8

 

[IndianHawk]

Original Agat seeker is Ukrainian, in fact its the same seeker thats on the legacy R-77 (which is also made by Ukrainian OEM Vympel)

Anyway, you have already pointed out in your earlier post, the whole idea right now is to do incremental steps. Astra will come in some years, Derby goes on for now since its immediately available. Astra Mk.II is however much closer to reality than believed, DRDO learned a lot from the dual-pulse motor it makes for the Barak-8

Even better ngram developed by DRDO has dual pulse motor also which has already been tested from su30mki. So even air launched dual pulse motors are ready . Just need to mate Astra airframe with these motors.

 

[IndianHawk]

When we designed Kaveri, we did not have certain technologies. So we designed kaveri accordingly. Now we have much better blade technology and thermal barrier technology so definitely we can design engine with much more efficiency, i.e with higher temperature and high compression ratio. so definitely, it is the time to redesign kaveri and make HTFE 35 for Jaguar. I would always prefer to go with Rolls Royce EJ series which powers Eurofighter. Next variant will have power of 72 KN dry with 103 Kn afterburner, It can power AMCA as well. So my preference shall always be Rolls Royce. Even if we try our own, We can get a good engine in decade time. This is the time to pursue it fast.

Is that RR variant confirmed ? What is the timeline.

 

[Bleh]

When we designed Kaveri, we did not have certain technologies. So we designed kaveri accordingly. Now we have much better blade technology and thermal barrier technology so definitely we can design engine with much more efficiency, i.e with higher temperature and high compression ratio. so definitely, it is the time to redesign kaveri and make HTFE 35 for Jaguar. I would always prefer to go with Rolls Royce EJ series which powers Eurofighter. Next variant will have power of 72 KN dry with 103 Kn afterburner, It can power AMCA as well. So my preference shall always be Rolls Royce. Even if we try our own, We can get a good engine in decade time. This is the time to pursue it fast.

Kaveri is already 52-82kN... against F404-GE-IN20 at 53.5-89kN. If they can push it to 55kN dry them it can power LCA Mark1. What's the present progress?

 

[vishnugupt]

Kaveri is already 52-82kN... against F404-GE-IN20 at 53.5-89kN. If they can push it to 55kN dry them it can power LCA Mark1. What's the present progress?

We all love and emotionally attached with indigenous projects but truth is, Kaveri is dead now. 52-82kN was produced during some points of testing but can't sustain it for long due to many reasons. We need to start a fresh engine project for future applications. if Kaveri is producing sustainable power of 52-82kN then there are still plenty of uses other than for Tejas

 

[Defcon 1]

Kaveri is already 52-82kN... against F404-GE-IN20 at 53.5-89kN. If they can push it to 55kN dry them it can power LCA Mark1. What's the present progress?

Its not 82 KN dude. Wet thrust is around 75 KN.