Know Your 'Rafale'

nitesh

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The Rafale : An Opportunity Towards Indigenous Aircraft Design And Manufacture | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses

While there is joy and great anticipation in several quarters about the entry of the Rafale into the IAF service, the issue of the strategic vulnerability that yet another foreign purchase of weaponry places upon the country tends to get easily overlooked.
It must be noted that only indigenously manufactured weaponry, backed by a robust industrial capability, would convey strategic independence and an independent national capability and power. Thus, the development of a robust and capable indigenous aircraft industry is a prime requirement for India in its pursuit of high growth, and the military capability needed to secure a sustained high growth trajectory.
Aircraft design and development is a very costly enterprise. The fixed costs involved in design and manufacture of new aircraft for the companies involved in design and manufacturing is very high. This is so even if the government carries some of the financial burden. However, despite the consequent reduction in cost, designing and building a modern state-of-the-art fighter aircraft such as the F-18 cost the design and manufacturing companies about US $ 5 billion in 1975.3 These costs remained much too high for manufacturers to bear, especially in the US system where the US Air Force (USAF) typically selected two manufacturers to design different aircraft to meet the same requirement, and the winner was decided in a fly-off of the prototypes [for example, the YF-16 vs. the YF-17, won by the YF-164 ; and the YF-22 vs. the YF-23, won by the YF-22].5 The losing company is thus unable to recoup its initial investment of several billion dollars. This is likely to have been a factor in the merger of erstwhile giants in the aircraft business with their erstwhile rivals—General Dynamics' aircraft division merged with Lockheed, as did Martin Marietta, to form Lockheed Martin6 and McDonnell Douglas, of the F-15 fame, merged with Boeing.7 In Europe, countries started to collaborate across borders to build modern aircraft. The Jaguar is an Anglo-French collaboration8 ; the Tornado was built by Britain, Italy, Germany and Spain; and, the Eurofighter Typhoon involves Britain, Italy, Germany and Spain.9

The above discussion clearly illustrates the high costs and risks involved in aircraft design and manufacture. The risks have been so great that large US companies with high net worth and annual turnover have found it tough to continue in the field. While private players may or may not operate in this field, it is clear that there needs to be some kind of support system to ensure that companies operating in the field are able to stay in business and achieve fair profitability.
The Indian Aircraft Industry is dominated by one big public sector player—Hindustan Aeronautics limited (HAL). Starting out as a private company, HAL was nationalised at the time of independence. It is involved in both designing and manufacturing aircraft. Alongside HAL, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is responsible for research and development (R&D). Until the economic reforms of 1991, private players were not allowed to operate in the aircraft industry in India. Since then, a few big businesses have expressed interest in entering into this field. A few more government owned and run organisations exist such as the National Aeronautics Laboratories (NAL) and the Aircraft Development Agency (ADA). Being government-owned and run as part of the Ministry of Defence (MoD), these organisations suffer from the ills of bureaucracy and reliance upon the government for funds and clearances for R&D. Moreover, projects are mostly undertaken only when a specific requirement is projected by the user to the government. This situation leads to difficulties in retention of expertise and lack of regular R&D in cutting-edge technologies. HAL and DRDO have had some success in the design and manufacture of trainers such as the HT-2 and HJT-16 both of which saw extensive service with the IAF. Fighter projects such as the HF-24 Marut did not meet full designed performance expectations due to the non-availability of engine. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, still under development towards achieving Final Operational Clearance (FOC), has also suffered from the lack of an indigenous engine. Tejas is currently behind schedule and has cost much more than the initially expected programme cost.

The dismal record of the indigenous aircraft industry in meeting IAF requirements brings out the pressing need to reform this industry in order to make it more effective. A possible way forward could be to borrow a few ideas from the Indian Navy (IN) in order to build a model suitable for the IAF and its specific requirements. For instance, the Navy, in co-operation with Indian shipyards, has, in the recent past, inducted several state-of-the-art warships designed and built in India. At Naval Headquarters in New Delhi, the IN has a department which deals primarily with warship design and development. This branch designs future warships in keeping with the IN's requirements and then co-ordinates with shipyards to build these designs. As a result of this system, the IN has warships built to its own specifications in India. Thus, the end user is fully involved in the process, from the initial design stage till the final induction stage. The companies that actually build the ships are, for the most part, public limited companies under government ownership. The lesson to be learnt here is that close co-ordination with the user from the initial design stage itself gives the user a buy-in and a sense of ownership of the project that bodes well for its eventual success. In contrast, the IAF headquarters limits itself to the preparation of Air Staff Requirements (ASRs) and then the case is pushed for these to be met by suppliers, either domestic or international. It is this author's opinion that the IAF would gain immensely from utilising its pool of highly-qualified aircraft engineers to form and man an aircraft design department at Air HQ to design new aircraft, and then to co-operate with aircraft building organisations to manufacture these. This model would have the advantage of user involvement from the inception phase to the induction phase of future aircraft projects. It is recommended that the IAF and

It is important for the MoD and the IAF to ensure that this opportunity does not go waste and that the offset investments in India are of a kind that can contribute to the development of the Indian Aircraft Industry.
It must be ensured that these players are able to upgrade their skills and capabilities in the future while making a fair profit, and thus staying in the aircraft building business with the aim that the Sixth Generation Fighter—which will be inducted into the IAF at some future date—is designed and built in India, and that Indian airlines too fly indigenously designed and built aircraft. While the offset clause of current large aircraft purchase deals could be leveraged to improve the technological state of Indian companies, keeping in mind the high costs involved in design and development, the government could continue to partially fund, at least, the design and development phases of new aircraft projects, be these in the private or public sector.
To conclude, while the Rafale may be the best aircraft for the IAF's current requirements in terms of capabilities and life-cycle cost, whether it also is the best aircraft for the Indian economy and India's overall long-term security is the question that begs an answer. For long-term benefits, the focus needs to be on domestic industrial capability enhancement using current purchases as the tool towards that end.
 

p2prada

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It looks like Dassault and BaE will collaborate in a future aircraft for Europe. Something to replace Rafale with. Dunno if it is manned or unmanned.
 

p2prada

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I hope this comes true.

Israeli systems in the new Indian fighter aircraft?
India wishes to equip its new fighter aircraft, the French Rafale, with Israeli-produced systems, but there is doubt that the French government will allow it. At this stage, it is known that India is primarily interested in Rafael's Litening pod, which is intended for navigation and locating ground targets.
More in the article....

The Litening is a better system than the Damocles. The French forced the Damocles for the Mirage-2000 upgrade as well.

They did not complain much during Kargil probably because India did not give a fck and that there was a possibility IAF would buy the production line.

The news seems to be quite true about the Derby missiles though. They are much better than the MICA.
 

Armand2REP

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Doubtful considering IAF went with MICA and Sukhoi is upgrading with Damocles.
 

p2prada

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Doubtful considering IAF went with MICA
Had no choice considering the Litening which was installed on the Mirage-2000 during Kargil has to be removed. IAF wanted the Litening on the M-2000, but Dassault did not allow it. It is very obvious any Israeli kit won't be allowed on the M-2000. Considering the MRCA deal is so big, foreign subsystems being used on the Rafale is a possibility.

Derby is an obvious choice over the Mica. It is so much better. The Tejas missile contract went to the Israelis over the French, Russians and the Americans in a tender. Performance was the criteria.

The Russians are selling a lot of missiles to us anyway. We have the R-27 and R-77 apart from ordering the RVV-MD, RVV-SD and K-100 in the thousands. It makes sense to diversify. The Americans contract comes with strings attached. The real competition was between Mica and Derby. Derby won.

and Sukhoi is upgrading with Damocles.
If you are talking about Malaysia, then Yes. If you are talking about Russia, then Maybe. If you are talking about India, then No.
 

Armand2REP

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Derby was selected for Tejas, yet no contract has been signed. Since then, a $1.2 billion order for MICA missiles is signed, so is a $2.4 billion upgrade of M2000H. Soon the biggest jet deal in history will be inked for $20 billion worth of Rafale. MICA is going to be the widest proliferated missile in IAF inventory. There also hasn't been any ink put down for Tejas MMR despite selection of ELTA. If IAF cares to save money, they will go with commonality over inferior Israeli products.
 

vanadium

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Fully agree with this text !.... but so , why the so leitmotiv about the so low or lower RCS of EFT compared with others (F-18, Rafale of course etc...)

I ask again the question : do you know where you can find LO design or features on EFT ?....no answer because there is not at all .
How can you with other EFT supporters maintain a so wrong affirmation.
Can you imagine a LO design even reduced RCS with these air inlets that go straight to the engines or overall with this wing fuselage-junction compared with all the LO design or only Rafale one for example .
So at the opposite have you looked at the pictures of the Rafale (everywhere not difficult to find) under grazzing light and you can see ram features in alll the trailing edges, in the main trap doors of the fuselage etc...

So another under-estimation about Rafale by "competitors" (or EFT over-estimation) or rather biaised propaganda.

So of course i agree with some members that for "classical airframe (without weapon bay)" when you put tanks, bombs the basic RCs is very affected but the gain you had at the beginning still exists even if it is lowered ; but again it increases as much as the aircraft has less payload, for example in A/A with one drop tank and missiles.

So speaking always of the so great/big radar of EFT EFT fanboys have to consider also in an A/A engagement (for example vs Rafale) the relative RCS.of the adversaries and the detection balance don't slope where you think.

UHHH also i've forgotten the Swiss evaluation have concluded that nominal EFT detection systems performances (againts references "foes" (may be their F-18)) were also under Rafale ones!
there is not also the radar but the ESM system, the IRST system, (MICA) missile sensors.... that play a major role in A/A engagement and overall the way there are merged (one of the main achieve of Rafale system is the complete data fusion that is presented to the pilot; no need like in a EFT to look at the different sensor views...)
but it is another topic...
My educated guess is that Rafale and Typhoon sport pretty similar RCS figures (I do not think I have ever stated anything different from this).

I would not get overexcited on this or that difference in designs. The main aim of LO design is to reduce the range at which you are detected. To bring down that range to tactically useful values you must reduce your RCS by a few order of magnitude, so what you are talking about will not result in a meaningful advantage.

By your own admission you do not know the Typhoon LO design and its LO features, so how can you fire all these criticisms? What is the value of a judgment which is based on admitted ignorance?

Even the little that you claim to know, such as the air inlet straight to the engine, is patently false, as the compressor face is behind a serpentine duct. And of course there are several other techniques to treat the inlet returns, which you should also bear in mind.
 

p2prada

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Derby was selected for Tejas, yet no contract has been signed. Since then, a $1.2 billion order for MICA missiles is signed, so is a $2.4 billion upgrade of M2000H. Soon the biggest jet deal in history will be inked for $20 billion worth of Rafale. MICA is going to be the widest proliferated missile in IAF inventory. There also hasn't been any ink put down for Tejas MMR despite selection of ELTA. If IAF cares to save money, they will go with commonality over inferior Israeli products.
That's because the LCA tender was recent news and contract negotiations are going on. In 6 months time, if some yank comes up to you and says that Rafale was selected but no contract has been signed, will you buy it? LCA needs to start flying in the first place. There have been major delays and weapons integration will not happen so quickly.

Mica may not be selected for Rafale. Meteor and Rafale have a similar induction time for India. This is 2012 and current news says it will be 48 months before the first Rafale makes it to India. So, why should the Mica be ordered when we may see the first Rafale a year after Meteor is operationalized.

ELTA's radar was never selected. We made our own radar and will be making our own AESA as well. AESA has been delinked from the LCA program. The current MMR uses an Israeli radar computer or maybe a radar processor. You can say Elta's radar is a backup if our design fails.
 

weg

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It looks like Dassault and BaE will collaborate in a future aircraft for Europe. Something to replace Rafale with. Dunno if it is manned or unmanned.
Its an unmanned. I doubt there is a future for manned aircraft.

BAE Systems and Dassault Join Forces for MALE UAS | UAS VISION


Or Maybe its development of BAE's Taranis, a long range stealth strike aircraft but I thought Dassult already had something very similar (nEUROn).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Taranis

I hazard a guess that its these two projects (nEUROn and Taranis) which will be combined into one. Probably using the cheap Anglo-French Adour engine.
 
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vanadium

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I wanted also to add something to this legend !
(of course agree with Armand p129)

DERA simulations so well known propaganda spread by UK & EFT team & US !

So why it was a UK MOD simulation where US agreed it was definitly the bible !
it didn't bother in the past everybody of this community to say that , although knowing so little about performances of Rafale (the way US & EFT fan boys are always surprised by performances ranking of Rafale in trials by every country, more, generally they don't believe the results) tells a lot about the total underestimation of Rafale performances/strentgh etc... especially about theses ones :
- detection means and fusion (my previous post) , plus package communications etc... so more: merged situation awareness into the package and the ability / easyness to use it share it to distribute the targets into the package
- manoeuvrability/agility during combat , yes yes even in BVR combat it is the way it turns (yes they turn!...) to be able to find the opportunity to fire.. (remember what said the Indian Air Force Chief of Staff after the downselection of EFT and Rafale, " .. Rafale demonstrated outstanding turn rate and agility..."

There are in Fr Mod and DA some A/A simulations and they don't gave at all the same results!

Care: EFT has also big strentgh (e.g : A/C performances in Swis eval) and is stronger that lot of competitors in some scenarios, especially in interception ;
In fact EFT is a very good interceptor..(climb rate, max speed.. . ) but only an interceptor with lack of sensor fusion and so valuable merged situation awareness into the package.

you know its very rare to be able (or to imagine) from a CAP or a QRA going to intercept some flying penetrator and firing missiles at max speed and distance on it because when air forces are not sure it is an enemy there are not sure it is not a friend ; the few friendly kills in previous air campaigns (ex YOUG US fighters on US Hels packages) have increased the constraints and the RoEs.

Really EFT for example has been built firstly to be an interceptor the cold war in mind (at this time the EFT Nations were using and for a long time for strike the Tornado they have just finished to build with so many difficulties)

So it is one of the reason (the first one i detail) for French Rafale side it is so incredible for us to listen/read all the time (thank you Vanadium and other EFT fan boys) that the "purely fighter" and more the best multirole fighter is the one that has the most powerful engines flies faster and higher!
You know we built in the past Mirage IIIC, Mirage IV that had ~ same levels of A/c performances, the Russians built Mig 25 (M2.7 until M.3.2 for one for test) , so do you think they still could be the best fighters of the world because of that , even with a big radar added?

At the end to go further the best way to go ahead is to stop being blind (your proper propaganda blinded you) , for example with all these recent informations it is time to accept for EFt community that there had truly some full right A/A combats in last few years : bet Rafale and EFT (IT, Ger) in Sicilia, Corsica etc.. in UAE (ATLC: EFT UK.) and they all began bet CAP in BVR and the results were always bet 4-0 to 3 -1 for Rafale even if it has been dismissed by these Air-Forces; but have you ever heard of someting in the other sense?

So have a goodnight
Your English looks like one of those Google translations which are convoluted and very hard to follow (see Armand posting on Ueli Maurer just above!)

If you stated that the RAND study, which quotes the DERA operational analysis results, is a piece of propaganda you might find some followers to that theory, as its purpose was to sustain the F-22 programme (under attack as usual) by raising the idea of a gray threat (not red!) from the new crop of fighters emerging from Europe. You would of course need to demonstrate why it is propaganda and not just state that it is propaganda! Even God give some explanations...

Stating that DERA operational analysis in support of the design iterations to define the Typhoon weapon system (including its armament) and the RAF CONOPS is propaganda is a bit far fetched, to say the least. Again just a blunt statement...and good night, everybody is gonna believe you.

I do not want to spend too much time, but just underline again the world standing of that governmental scientific organization and the fact that those exercises were an integral part of the design process and its verification. Marketing and export were still far away in the future.

O course if you have scientific arguments to debate those results, the simulation tool JOUST employed by DERA, the combat scenarios used and the data inputs fed to the mathematical model you are more than welcome. Not just by myself but, I would guess, by the wider fighter community. In such a debate we would certainly learn more and would be grateful. But to spit the word "propaganda" on such a world renown and respected scientific institute is very mean spirited, if not insulting.

It would also be useful to examine and debate any operational analysis work done by the French scientific institutes and compare notes.
 

vanadium

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Its an unmanned. I doubt there is a future for manned aircraft.

BAE Systems and Dassault Join Forces for MALE UAS | UAS VISION


Or Maybe its development of BAE's Taranis, a long range stealth strike aircraft but I thought Dassult already had something very similar (nEUROn).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Taranis

I hazard a guess that its these two projects (nEUROn and Taranis) which will be combined into one. Probably using the cheap Anglo-French Adour engine.
Future strike platforms will be unmanned. That´s an easy call. JSF? Too little, too late and against the trend.

Nuclear strike platforms will still require two crew members.

The next generation European fighter to replace Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen will be a manned platform, as air combat is a very dynamic and fast changing environment still requiring the very fast judgment capability of a human mind on board. My bet is that the nations behind those programmes--probably with the exception of the UK which is deeply ingrained with the US on some VLO technologies--will unite behind a single project. In-service date post-2030, I would say.
 

Armand2REP

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Brazil, UAE Might Follow India's Choice of Rafale; Debate Over Swiss Choice Continues


Denied an export order for years, the Dassault Rafale may soon clinch three of them. (Photo: Dassault)

February 17, 2012, 11:00 AM
The French Rafale is reportedly well placed to triumph in the long-running fighter jet contest in Brazil, and also to secure the elusive order from the UAE, following the type's success in India. Speaking at the Singapore Airshow, Indian air force commander ACM N.A.K. Browne told AIN that his country would not accept a revised bid from the losing Eurofighter camp for the 126-aircraft MMRCA requirement. British politicians had earlier suggested this possibility, but it emerged that the Dassault Rafale was the clear winner on acquisition and life-cycle costs. Negotiations to conclude a firm contract will start on March 5, Browne said.

Dassault's prospects for securing an order from Brazil for at least 36 Rafales brightened when Reuters reported from São Paolo that President Dilma Rousseff favors the French warplane, especially after India's choice. Moreover, the Brazilians have requested access to India's selection procedures for the MMRCA, which will be granted, Browne confirmed.

French media outlet La Tribune reported that the long-awaited sale of 60 Rafales to the UAE might soon be concluded, despite last November's dramatic declaration by the Emiratis at the Dubai Air Show that the price was not right. La Tribune said that Dassault chief Charles Edelstenne returned to Abu Dhabi some days after the show to repair relations. There was a positive outcome, and now French President Nicolas Sarkozy is planning to visit the UAE at the end of March to seal the deal, La Tribune continued.

In Switzerland, Defense Minister Ueli Maurier called a press conference to counter the leak of the Swiss Air Force (SAF) technical evaluation for the new fighter aircraft. This showed the Rafale as the clear winner, the Eurofighter second and the Saab Gripen last.

Brazil, UAE Might Follow India's Choice of Rafale; Debate Over Swiss Choice Continues | Aviation International News
 

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Rafale/Typhoon RC & Detection system performances

Your English looks like one of those Google translations which are convoluted and very hard to follow (see Armand posting on Ueli Maurer just above!)

If you stated that the RAND study, which quotes the DERA operational analysis results, is a piece of propaganda you might find some followers to that theory, as its purpose was to sustain the F-22 programme (under attack as usual) by raising the idea of a gray threat (not red!) from the new crop of fighters emerging from Europe. You would of course need to demonstrate why it is propaganda and not just state that it is propaganda! Even God give some explanations...

Stating that DERA operational analysis in support of the design iterations to define the Typhoon weapon system (including its armament) and the RAF CONOPS is propaganda is a bit far fetched, to say the least. Again just a blunt statement...and good night, everybody is gonna believe you.

I do not want to spend too much time, but just underline again the world standing of that governmental scientific organization and the fact that those exercises were an integral part of the design process and its verification. Marketing and export were still far away in the future.

O course if you have scientific arguments to debate those results, the simulation tool JOUST employed by DERA, the combat scenarios used and the data inputs fed to the mathematical model you are more than welcome. Not just by myself but, I would guess, by the wider fighter community. In such a debate we would certainly learn more and would be grateful. But to spit the word "propaganda" on such a world renown and respected scientific institute is very mean spirited, if not insulting.

It would also be useful to examine and debate any operational analysis work done by the French scientific institutes and compare notes.
OK, but these are mandatory to claim about reduced RCS; but what about fuselage & wings treatment ?

But I was also in my post addressing another subject (may be it's too much), it was about detection performances of these aircraft

So, how do you explain the Swiss Evaluation Result about this topic ? don't you think you were (as all the EFT galaxy) so over-estimating the typhoon detection performances or rather fully under-estimating the Rafale ones or both ?....
 

Robin

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OK, but these are mandatory to claim about reduced RCS; but what about fuselage & wings treatment ?

But I was also in my post addressing another subject (may be it's too much), it was about detection performances of these aircraft

So, how do you explain the Swiss Evaluation Result about this topic ? don't you think you were (as all the EFT galaxy) so over-estimating the typhoon detection performances or rather fully under-estimating the Rafale ones or both ?....
not the good post reply....
 

Robin

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Rafale/Typhoon RCS & Detection system performances

My educated guess is that Rafale and Typhoon sport pretty similar RCS figures (I do not think I have ever stated anything different from this).

I would not get overexcited on this or that difference in designs. The main aim of LO design is to reduce the range at which you are detected. To bring down that range to tactically useful values you must reduce your RCS by a few order of magnitude, so what you are talking about will not result in a meaningful advantage.

By your own admission you do not know the Typhoon LO design and its LO features, so how can you fire all these criticisms? What is the value of a judgment which is based on admitted ignorance?

Even the little that you claim to know, such as the air inlet straight to the engine, is patently false, as the compressor face is behind a serpentine duct. And of course there are several other techniques to treat the inlet returns, which you should also bear in mind.
OK, but these are mandatory to claim about reduced RCS; but what about fuselage & wings treatment ?

But I was also in my post addressing another subject (may be it's too much), it was about detection performances of these aircraft

So, how do you explain the Swiss Evaluation Result about this topic ? don't you think you were (as all the EFT galaxy) so over-estimating the typhoon detection performances or rather fully under-estimating the Rafale ones or both ?....
 

Robin

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Future strike platforms will be unmanned. That´s an easy call. JSF? Too little, too late and against the trend.

Nuclear strike platforms will still require two crew members.

The next generation European fighter to replace Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen will be a manned platform, as air combat is a very dynamic and fast changing environment still requiring the very fast judgment capability of a human mind on board. My bet is that the nations behind those programmes--probably with the exception of the UK which is deeply ingrained with the US on some VLO technologies--will unite behind a single project. In-service date post-2030, I would say.
Agree (yes, yes) with all your assertions except may be the future aircraft for Europe. because Italy is like UK involved in the JSF and perharps Spain, & another problem with these 2 Nations could be the lack of money.
It leaves Germany, but did germany showed any involvment in a real european military defense? see Libya and also the 2 times less % of budget for defense compared with France & UK.
So may be the the future manned A/C in Europe will probably be evolutions (perharps major ones) of the existing A/C so probably only Rafale ones
 

methos

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But I was also in my post addressing another subject (may be it's too much), it was about detection performances of these aircraft

So, how do you explain the Swiss Evaluation Result about this topic ? don't you think you were (as all the EFT galaxy) so over-estimating the typhoon detection performances or rather fully under-estimating the Rafale ones or both ?....
Best thing is not to base anything on Swiss Evaluation, as the only "leaked" part (24 page summary) does not include any details about the settings, requirements and aircraft configurations. The Swiss did also include recce and air-to-ground tasks in some parts of their summaries, both taks which weren't done by their F-5s and probably will not be by their next-gen. aircraift as long as the F-18 also stays in service. It might be that the Swiss did inlcude some parts in the "detection rating" which are not for aircraft detection but for detection of ground targets. It also could be that the Swiss increased the note as an AESA radar will be fitted in the Rafale sooner. We don't know, we just know the "results" [even though not the final Gripen configuration is used there].
 

Robin

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Your English looks like one of those Google translations which are convoluted and very hard to follow (see Armand posting on Ueli Maurer just above!)

If you stated that the RAND study, which quotes the DERA operational analysis results, is a piece of propaganda you might find some followers to that theory, as its purpose was to sustain the F-22 programme (under attack as usual) by raising the idea of a gray threat (not red!) from the new crop of fighters emerging from Europe. You would of course need to demonstrate why it is propaganda and not just state that it is propaganda! Even God give some explanations...

Stating that DERA operational analysis in support of the design iterations to define the Typhoon weapon system (including its armament) and the RAF CONOPS is propaganda is a bit far fetched, to say the least. Again just a blunt statement...and good night, everybody is gonna believe you.

I do not want to spend too much time, but just underline again the world standing of that governmental scientific organization and the fact that those exercises were an integral part of the design process and its verification. Marketing and export were still far away in the future.

O course if you have scientific arguments to debate those results, the simulation tool JOUST employed by DERA, the combat scenarios used and the data inputs fed to the mathematical model you are more than welcome. Not just by myself but, I would guess, by the wider fighter community. In such a debate we would certainly learn more and would be grateful. But to spit the word "propaganda" on such a world renown and respected scientific institute is very mean spirited, if not insulting.

It would also be useful to examine and debate any operational analysis work done by the French scientific institutes and compare notes.
My critic was not about the tool it was about two or three aspects :

- Clearly demonstrated in my post by the example of the swiss evaluation or others (ex Korea: final F15E vs Rafale , Typhoon eliminated, Singapour: final F15E vs Rafale, Typhoon eliminated etc... (and Rafale twice Noted operationaly the best) with the fact that for theses countries A/A defense was the first Op need like in Switzerland) and by the only existing results of the A/A combat trainings between Typhoon forces & Rafale Navy or Air Force; that the EFT Galaxy & US have never estimated and integrated corrrectly the characteristics and strength of the Rafale (fully underestimated - see for example every past articles of the "famous" Jon Lake about Rafale !)
- secondly not difficult at the opposite for EFT backers to increase the datas of the Typhoon
- thirdly not difficult to lean on scenarios that are favorable for this A/C (but which could be also the ones backed by EFT MoD in fact) but the fact that there are a lot of A/A scenarios very different and depending on the RoEs and that the ones where you detect and fire & kill in BVR without clear identification doesn't exist a lot (and thats the big weakness of the F22 for example not to integrate IR/TV-ST....)
 

vanadium

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Agree (yes, yes) with all your assertions except may be the future aircraft for Europe. because Italy is like UK involved in the JSF and perharps Spain, & another problem with these 2 Nations could be the lack of money.
It leaves Germany, but did germany showed any involvment in a real european military defense? see Libya and also the 2 times less % of budget for defense compared with France & UK.
So may be the the future manned A/C in Europe will probably be evolutions (perharps major ones) of the existing A/C so probably only Rafale ones
Please do not look at long-range issues of strategic importance through some short-sighted filters such as some events of today or of yesterday that in few years will appear as rather modest or insignificant.

The nations I referred to are likely to co-operate both for military reasons (need to replace the fighter line) and for industrial reasons (need to maintain some indigenous design competence). Budgetary reasons will probably also push in that direction and a stronger European integration should contribute towards that goal. I assume that the current EU fiscal crisis will eventually be overcome (maybe with some shaking off at the periphery) and this will mean more cohesion of policies (fiscal, industrial, etc.). If this does not happen we are entering a very unpredictable territory in which I would not venture myself in with forecasts.

The threat scenarios post-2030 are difficult to envision, but I am quite confident to say that none of the three platforms I mentioned will offer an adequate answer to the challenges however radically you try to evolve them. My educated guess is a brand new platform designed from the start with VLO spec. You can forget your Rafale!
 

Armand2REP

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Best thing is not to base anything on Swiss Evaluation

The leaked Suisse evaluation does 4 things

A) Kills Gripen sale
B) Validates Indian selection
C) Boosts Brasil decision for Rafale
D) Boosts UAE decision for Rafale

It is the icing on the Indian celebration cake.
 

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