Know Your 'Rafale'

[nitesh]

Hold the horses, accusations are starting, and from British press, seems like a straw man argument, but let's see how it effects the process

Mother of all India's defence deals: Rafale Jets dodge a 'dissent dogfight' | Mail Online

But highly placed sources said two senior officials of the defence ministry have questioned the methods adopted by the contract negotiation committee which concluded that Rafale was the lowest bidder.

The two officials - additional financial advisor and a joint secretary in the ministry Prem Kumar Kataria, and finance manager (air) R.K. Arora - are members of the negotiation committee that comprises senior ministry officials and Indian Air Force (IAF) officers.

The two officials noted that certain assumptions had been made about Rafale's bid to declare it as the lowest bidder, but no one had validated it. The officials initially refused to sign the minutes of the committee.

They later signed after making their reservations known.

They put written notes on the file on January 24, according to officials privy to the negotiations. Sources say defence minister A.K. Antony wants to steer clear of any controversy and has instructed that the committee should settle the issue internally.

According to sources, while evaluating the commercial bids, a new system was followed that not only took into account the unit prices but also calculated the 'life cycle costs' - which takes into account the cost of maintenance and spares for the period, estimated at 40 years, the aircraft would remain operational.

The sources said the whole formula was based on certain assumptions, which have now been questioned.

 

[nitesh]

eight more stages to go:

India says it is negotiating contract with Dassault - Indian Express

He said the contract negotiations take place for over six months and after that the deal will have to pass through eight stages.

"It will have to pass through scrutiny in eight stages. After CNC, it will come to Defence Ministry. In ministry also, there will be minimum four stages of scrutiny by Defence Finance. Then it will go to independent monitors appointed by the CVC and then go to the National Security Council Secretariat and Finance Ministry," Antony said.

 

[Armand2REP]

Hold the horses, accusations are starting, and from British press, seems like a straw man argument, but let's see how it effects the process

Mother of all India's defence deals: Rafale Jets dodge a 'dissent dogfight' | Mail Online

It is already past the CNC and those two officials already signed off on it. It is a none issue. Two guys out of twenty doesn't make a majority.

 

[nitesh]

It is already past the CNC and those two officials already signed off on it. It is a none issue. Two guys out of twenty doesn't make a majority.

It is common practice to leave notes over the files, if some body wants one particular point to be highlighted to the superiors. The point I am trying to make is that, how much weight age is given to those notes by others who are going to see the files.

 

[Armand2REP]

If it was such a problem for them they wouldn't have signed it, but stormed out. Is FinMin going to read the transcripts? doubt it....

 

[nitesh]

You are right, that the file is cleared. And yes, before clearing people look in to the notes. And they can question it, you can not discount the possibility as null.

 

[Armand2REP]

The only place this report ended up was a back-story on Headline news and picked up by one British rag. The possibility is as null as I need it to be. There is only one thing that could derail this process and it ain't a couple of questions from bureaucrats. It is FinMin tightening its pockets.

 

[nitesh]

Isn't I said the same, that this is an straw man argument, but there are 8 stages to go before the final contract signing. Let's see how the drama plays out

 

[Armand2REP]

The only make or break stage is FinMin, always has been always will be.

 

[nitesh]

The only make or break stage is FinMin, always has been always will be.

Well he can be pulled by PM if need arises

Armand, can you comment on what exactly will be the area where India will get benefits from this deal (I mean from the technology stand point)

 

[SPIEZ]

p2p, Why don't India buy the rights to production and manufacture the air to air missiles in India itself ?

 

[ace009]

I am curious to know what special features are available on the Rafale if the SFC wants to buy 1 or 2 squadrons for their strategic air strike arm.

 

[Armand2REP]

Pulled by the PM? That weenie doesn't have the power in GoI, Sonia does and we got her in our back pocket according to Swammy.

India gets 85% ToT, France will keep "critical" technologies, ie ones that are required for India to "copy" or kit.

 

[nitesh]

^^

So overall Rafale is going to be another white elephant, in short

 

[Armand2REP]

^^

They all are, no one is going to give strategic technologies.

 

[nitesh]

^^
Well, to keep long term objectives in mind, if France doesn't give in to the demands, then it will be better to scrap the deal.

 

[Ray]

Antony sets tone for jet deal course

New Delhi, Feb. 17: India's procurement of the Rafale fighter jet over the Eurofighter Typhoon after the air force selected the French plane last week can take up to a year "but there will be no politics involved," defence minister A.K. Antony said today.

The consortium of four countries — the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain — that makes the Typhoon still believes that the nearly $20-billion Indian fighter jet competition can still be turned around in its favour if it gift-wraps it politically. The UK Prime Minister has been vocal about this.

The Typhoon was found by the defence ministry to be more expensive than the Rafale after trials and evaluations that took three years.

Antony said a contract negotiation committee (CNC) had been formed to deal with the French company Dassault that makes the Rafale. "The CNC will take six months. After that, there will be eight stages," Antony explained, when asked how long it would take for the deal to mature.

The CNC will send its proposal to the defence ministry where it will be vetted at four levels and then examined by the defence finance wing. Independent monitors of the Central Vigilance Commission will then be asked to scrutinise the package.

After approval from the CVC, the proposal will be sent to the finance ministry and from there to the National Security Council. The cabinet committee on security will take the proposal on its agenda only after all of this.

"Defence procurement is not on political consideration. We will scrupulously scrutinise the whole process. Nobody can corrupt the Indian system," said Antony.

Age records

The defence ministry is asking all the armed forces to reconcile disputes in the records of personnel in the wake of the age row over the army chief's date of birth.

Defence minister A.K. Antony today said the row was now a thing of the past. "What has happened is unfortunate. Don't rake it up. India cannot afford such controversy in national interest."

Antony sets tone for jet deal course

Thus spake, Saint Anthony!

 

[p2prada]

p2p, Why don't India buy the rights to production and manufacture the air to air missiles in India itself ?

Countries want to keep their weapons to themselves in order to keep the technology secret and earn more money later. The shelf life of missiles are 2 times lesser than aircraft so we have to place two orders, minimum. The Russians are providing the R-77 seeker to us for Astra project only because they have superior missiles now.

Weapons technology isn't something money can buy unfortunately. Derby is good, but it is a small missile and has it's own problems. Israel won't hesitate to sell us the technology, but that is of little use to us considering our needs are bigger.

Quite the same with other bombs and missiles. We have to develop our own systems alone or through JVs.

 

[p2prada]

India gets 85% ToT, France will keep "critical" technologies, ie ones that are required for India to "copy" or kit.

I dunno where you got the 85% from??? Never been mentioned by the press or officials. The only 85% I know is HAL's production share.

Nobody has Sonia in anybody's pocket. She has everybody in her's instead. Dassault won because it was the cheaper and better of the two. No need to say politics was involved because there wasn't any.

 

[SPIEZ]

Countries want to keep their weapons to themselves in order to keep the technology secret and earn more money later. The shelf life of missiles are 2 times lesser than aircraft so we have to place two orders, minimum. The Russians are providing the R-77 seeker to us for Astra project only because they have superior missiles now.

Weapons technology isn't something money can buy unfortunately. Derby is good, but it is a small missile and has it's own problems. Israel won't hesitate to sell us the technology, but that is of little use to us considering our needs are bigger.

Quite the same with other bombs and missiles. We have to develop our own systems alone or through JVs.

What is the problem with the Derby missile ? What is the current need of the defense forces ?