Know Your 'Rafale'

vanadium

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hello Vanadium

I spent some time to read your past posts & i'm sure you are an expert in aerospace, even if unfortunatly majority of your posts are biaised (with quite subtlety sometimes) to support obstinately your favorite EFT.

So as it has been/it is still so often a main issue (fighter (low?) observability) could you explain in what,/ in where EFT has any LO design or features ?

Thanks in advance
As I stated sometime before, it is not yet been declared a criminal act or a felony to be a Typhoon fan. And there is nothing unfortunate in that. And yes at time one goes into A/B, because some of the postings are, let´s say, sub-standard.

The question of survivability of a fighter--rather than LO as such--is a highly complex subject, of which the signatures reduction is just one of the elements that feed into the overall design for survivability. There are many other considerations and solutions to arrive to a survivable fighter design and it would take a small booklet to go through them all. It is of course a matter of some early fundamental choices on the main way to go, a matter of balance with other key attributes, and as always in the design of a combat aircraft a matter of achieving the right compromises. Many of these issues would also be highly confidential in nature to be debated in public.
 

vanadium

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All this does not mean anything when someone is not keeping pace anymore. Also the Stealth angles was done by a Russian scientist.

Discovering something means nothing, moveing on is what people remember. Human memory is very short and credits are very rarely given. The first iron rocket in battle was used in India by Tipu Sultan against the british and that is how it went to Europe when British took it and later Napoleon used it, the gun powder, iron, copper,modern numbers and all early mathematics come from asia. No one talks of all that as a premise for being more intelligent in the past. Same way it has moved on from Europe to the US. Why blame them now.
No blame to the Yanks!

(BTW a Russian is a European...I meant of course the Soviet academician that solved the stealth equation in the 1960s and whose learned paper handed up one day on the desk of Oberosler at Skunk Works...and eureka! They had the computing power to solve those complex numerical calculations, which the Soviets lacked at the time)
 

Godless-Kafir

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No blame to the Yanks!

(BTW a Russian is a European...I meant of course the Soviet academician that solved the stealth equation in the 1960s and whose learned paper handed up one day on the desk of Oberosler at Skunk Works...and eureka! They had the computing power to solve those complex numerical calculations, which the Soviets lacked at the time)
Not sure, there are many nations in Europe. Its the western Europe that did most of these inventions. Austria did not do much in the filed.
 

Robin

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This is what I have difficulty understanding. Germany has the most efficient industry in Europe, they have destroyed the the Euro by holding down wages and increasing productivity over a decade. The UK has devalued its currency by 25% - together that covers 65% of production cost.

France has high wages and low working hours, so how can they have a cost 25% below the Eurofighter when they make in lower volume? Something isn't right.
Hello weg

some axes of answer for your questions:

firstly needed for EFT:

- including all the upgrades needed only trying to match with the present (full A/G & swing role) or already founded (AESA etc...) Rafale definition
- including all the upgrades needed for the operational two-seater (EFt two seater is for training, Rafale two seater is an operational variant - the easier omnirole (swing role) variant in complex environment and for precision with the same range than the one-seater)

secondly:
- do you know that one of the "best " anti Rafale propagnada among so others (from mainly jointly US-UK teams) in the past (in the past but the Truth about all the issues begins slowly but inexorably to appear) would be its high support cost?
so, let us have a look :

° M2000 support cost are lot lower thant all its competitors (sam class & generation fighters)
° on this basis Dassault engineers have again reduced the equivalent support footprint for Rafale in an Integrated Logistic & Support System based on pronostic-diagnostic that avoid completly what is known as the "planned support main visits" replaced by in - wing- squadron optimal support;
° do you know that Dassault Company is not only well known for the fighters but for the Falcon jet wich for the last best seller one (F7X) has been finally marketed/advertised the Product Life Cycle Management built by Dassault Aviation & Dassault System(wich was 25 years ago only a Dassault aviation department) ; this PLM management has been developped during the Rafale & the last falcon family Programs; at the end this new conception approach (integrating future evolution & support at the beginning of the conception) is bought by the main aerospace companies (boeing for exemple fully uses it now)

° so at the end, do you know that the core people support workforce for Rafale in squadron deployment is around two times less thant its current competitors (US & EFT) - you could/will verify it in the future or "'asking" air forces people involved in the Air operations deployments (or for India or other country trials)

Also another data about cost efficiency : Dassault Aviation has got only a 10000 workforce !! and if it is possible (as rand corporation that audited Dassault a long time ago explained the dassault model was incredibly efficient but not easily reproductible) is only possible by people in Dassault Company working around 10(min) to 12 hours a day .

So hope these informations will help you and others about this issue
 

pmaitra

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No blame to the Yanks!

(BTW a Russian is a European...I meant of course the Soviet academician that solved the stealth equation in the 1960s and whose learned paper handed up one day on the desk of Oberosler at Skunk Works...and eureka! They had the computing power to solve those complex numerical calculations, which the Soviets lacked at the time)
I disagree. Slavic people are Europeans. Not all Russians are Europeans. Again, not all Slavic people are Russians. Russians can be Slavic (European), Caucasian and Cossack (Eurasian), Turkic, Tatar, Mongol and many other nationalities (Asian), including many native 'Indian' tribes, such as, but not limited to, The Nenets.
 

methos

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I disagree. Slavic people are Europeans. Not all Russians are Europeans. Again, not all Slavic people are Russians. Russians can be Slavic (European), Caucasian and Cossack (Eurasian), Turkic, Tatar, Mongol and many other nationalities (Asian), including many native 'Indian' tribes, such as, but not limited to, The Nenets.
Europe is a geographic boundary and has nothing to do with ethnics. Slavic people also include the majority of the Balkan countries, Poland, Ukraine and Belarus, all countries belonging to Europe according to the old but common rule "everything west of the Urals (mountains and river) belongs to Europe".

But that's offtopic. Aparently the Indians didn't consider US aircraft available to export (for MMRCA) as advanced as the EF/Rafale was considered,
 
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arundo

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That crappy mock up meant nothing, why was no european nation building a stealth aircraft instead of EF-2000, Rafael or Gripen? That because they cant, lets face the facts. Europeans always get defensive and jealous and begin justifying it in all possible ways.
I would say its more a matter of money. The delays (btw both programs, EF and Rafale, had delays) are more due to a lack of money than to a lack of know how, although I think that USA are ahead. That's a complex, partly structural problem. Furthermore, diverging interests and needs are other reasons why European projects have problems moving forward or to work properly.
I am sure that the French, the Brits and the German together would be able to offer more competitive aircraft, but the problem is that they do not act homogeneously. National interests are a major obstacle.

Of course, the cannibalization between Rafale and Typhoon is weakening both programs (as an example).
Finally, we should not forget that F-22 and F-35 have not proven to be successful so far and still have to face lots of technical (and budget) troubles.
 

pmaitra

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Europe is a geographic boundary and has nothing to do with ethnics. Slavic people also include the majority of the Balkan countries, Poland, Ukraine and Belarus, all countries belonging to Europe according to the old but common rule "everything west of the Urals (mountains and river) belongs to Europe".
Well put. West of Urals and North of the Caucasian Mountains.

But that's offtopic. Aparently the Indians didn't consider US aircraft available to export (for MMRCA) as advanced as the EF/Rafale was considered,
It was more about ToT, Aircraft Carrier compatibility and recent performance in Libya, than about being advanced. Price played a role as well.
 

arundo

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I was quite surprised to learn from the Swiss leaked evaluation report (WHAT A SHAME!!!).
We do not know who leaked the report. We have to assume that it was given to Saab, Dassault and Cassidian and it cannot be excluded that one of the two "losers" tried to discredit the final decision. Let's wait what the investigations reveal..
BTW even if Typhoon showed to be supercruising at Mach 1.4, I am quite surprised by the rankings in the different chapters.
 

p2prada

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Well put. West of Urals and North of the Caucasian Mountains.
Hmm. That means Asia got all the good parts. :becky:

We do not know who leaked the report. We have to assume that it was given to Saab, Dassault and Cassidian and it cannot be excluded that one of the two "losers" tried to discredit the final decision. Let's wait what the investigations reveal..
BTW even if Typhoon showed to be supercruising at Mach 1.4, I am quite surprised by the rankings in the different chapters.
Mach 1.4 supercruise isn't great either. Nothing fancy in it and will probably not affect any variable in the evaluation.

As for anybody hoping for EF to get a pass at second chance, well let's see what the ACM has to say.
India: Rafale Decision Final | Aviation International News
Asked if he was satisfied with the Rafale selection, Browne said it was, "Brilliant! We got it at the best cost possible. The decision was based on performance and Rafale passed all qualifications."
It shows the IAF always wanted the Rafale and in the end they got what they wanted. It would look like IAF will make sure the deal goes through no matter what. So, this is pretty much a done deal.

Quite like how we waited patiently for the order of 42 MKIs to materialize, or as an even better example, the eventual upgrade of the Mirage-2000 by Dassault.
 

Godless-Kafir

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IOC and British government wont remove DOW chemicals from the Olympic sponcers list. One more reason GoI policy makers would be irked at the back of their mind. :D

Be tough and pompous at the cost of your economy, you can no longer afford to have a stiff upper lip.
 

Armand2REP

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Ueli Maurer lied of Federal Council: Omitted Evaluation

After the evaluation reports had come from the years 2008 and 2009 on Sunday to the public, the defense minister said Ueli Maurer on Tuesday include: Also, the Federal Council had come to the Gripen decision. "The Federal Council had by all types all figures are available. He decided having regard to the situation "In other words, Maurer gave the impression that the Federal Council had access to all documents in all three tested types - had - Rafale EuroFighter, Gripen.

But this was obviously not as well-informed sources tell against Tagesanzeiger.ch / Newsnet. Maurer showed a rating from the Federal Council of the evaluation, which should have comprised no more than two A4 pages. For this, the defense minister had given a ten-page summary of a 250-page report. More documents, the Federal Council decision not to its type. From the evaluation reports in 2008 and 2009, the other cabinet ministers have learned from the press, it is called on.

Gripen-Entscheid: Was wussten die anderen Bundesräte? - Schweiz: Standard - tagesanzeiger.ch
 

p2prada

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How haphazard!!! I did not expect the Swiss to be so controversial. The Dutch had problems too, with the F-35 and Gripen.

Goes to show how clean our competition was.
 

Robin

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As I stated sometime before, it is not yet been declared a criminal act or a felony to be a Typhoon fan. And there is nothing unfortunate in that. And yes at time one goes into A/B, because some of the postings are, let´s say, sub-standard.

The question of survivability of a fighter--rather than LO as such--is a highly complex subject, of which the signatures reduction is just one of the elements that feed into the overall design for survivability. There are many other considerations and solutions to arrive to a survivable fighter design and it would take a small booklet to go through them all. It is of course a matter of some early fundamental choices on the main way to go, a matter of balance with other key attributes, and as always in the design of a combat aircraft a matter of achieving the right compromises. Many of these issues would also be highly confidential in nature to be debated in public.
Fully agree with this text !.... but so , why the so leitmotiv about the so low or lower RCS of EFT compared with others (F-18, Rafale of course etc...)

I ask again the question : do you know where you can find LO design or features on EFT ?....no answer because there is not at all .
How can you with other EFT supporters maintain a so wrong affirmation.
Can you imagine a LO design even reduced RCS with these air inlets that go straight to the engines or overall with this wing fuselage-junction compared with all the LO design or only Rafale one for example .
So at the opposite have you looked at the pictures of the Rafale (everywhere not difficult to find) under grazzing light and you can see ram features in alll the trailing edges, in the main trap doors of the fuselage etc...

So another under-estimation about Rafale by "competitors" (or EFT over-estimation) or rather biaised propaganda.

So of course i agree with some members that for "classical airframe (without weapon bay)" when you put tanks, bombs the basic RCs is very affected but the gain you had at the beginning still exists even if it is lowered ; but again it increases as much as the aircraft has less payload, for example in A/A with one drop tank and missiles.

So speaking always of the so great/big radar of EFT EFT fanboys have to consider also in an A/A engagement (for example vs Rafale) the relative RCS.of the adversaries and the detection balance don't slope where you think.

UHHH also i've forgotten the Swiss evaluation have concluded that nominal EFT detection systems performances (againts references "foes" (may be their F-18)) were also under Rafale ones!
there is not also the radar but the ESM system, the IRST system, (MICA) missile sensors.... that play a major role in A/A engagement and overall the way there are merged (one of the main achieve of Rafale system is the complete data fusion that is presented to the pilot; no need like in a EFT to look at the different sensor views...)
but it is another topic...
 

Robin

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The operational analyses conducted by DERA simulated hundreds of air combats starting from a BVR and in many cases (depending on initial formation numbers and survivals) coming to a merge and ending in WVR. The data input is the correct design data of the fighters represented in terms of mass, aerodynamic data sets, engine decks, sensors performance and weapon characteristics. The air vehicle data and engine data sets have not changed much so the results are by and large still valid today. Of course for Rafale the new AESA radar will improve a bit its air combat effectiveness, as will replacing the SRM Magic with a MICA IR.

Serious and highly reputable tools such as the one used by DERA, fed with a solid database of weapon systems parameters, allow designers and warfighters to study the behavior of a fighter in highly complex scenarios, exploring the whole flight envelope that are very difficult and costly to replicate in real. These tools, and the DERA in particular, are highly sophisticated and are accepted by the scientific community. The key caveat here is the usual: garbage in, garbage out. In the case quoted the UK MoD had very good dataset of the aircraft under examination.

The key scenarios under study were obviously the most stressing one for an air superiority fighter and typically a small section of air defenders versus a strike package protected by a fighter sweep section (Flanker) and close escort section (Flanker).
I wanted also to add something to this legend !
(of course agree with Armand p129)

DERA simulations so well known propaganda spread by UK & EFT team & US !

So why it was a UK MOD simulation where US agreed it was definitly the bible !
it didn't bother in the past everybody of this community to say that , although knowing so little about performances of Rafale (the way US & EFT fan boys are always surprised by performances ranking of Rafale in trials by every country, more, generally they don't believe the results) tells a lot about the total underestimation of Rafale performances/strentgh etc... especially about theses ones :
- detection means and fusion (my previous post) , plus package communications etc... so more: merged situation awareness into the package and the ability / easyness to use it share it to distribute the targets into the package
- manoeuvrability/agility during combat , yes yes even in BVR combat it is the way it turns (yes they turn!...) to be able to find the opportunity to fire.. (remember what said the Indian Air Force Chief of Staff after the downselection of EFT and Rafale, " .. Rafale demonstrated outstanding turn rate and agility..."

There are in Fr Mod and DA some A/A simulations and they don't gave at all the same results!

Care: EFT has also big strentgh (e.g : A/C performances in Swis eval) and is stronger that lot of competitors in some scenarios, especially in interception ;
In fact EFT is a very good interceptor..(climb rate, max speed.. . ) but only an interceptor with lack of sensor fusion and so valuable merged situation awareness into the package.

you know its very rare to be able (or to imagine) from a CAP or a QRA going to intercept some flying penetrator and firing missiles at max speed and distance on it because when air forces are not sure it is an enemy there are not sure it is not a friend ; the few friendly kills in previous air campaigns (ex YOUG US fighters on US Hels packages) have increased the constraints and the RoEs.

Really EFT for example has been built firstly to be an interceptor the cold war in mind (at this time the EFT Nations were using and for a long time for strike the Tornado they have just finished to build with so many difficulties)

So it is one of the reason (the first one i detail) for French Rafale side it is so incredible for us to listen/read all the time (thank you Vanadium and other EFT fan boys) that the "purely fighter" and more the best multirole fighter is the one that has the most powerful engines flies faster and higher!
You know we built in the past Mirage IIIC, Mirage IV that had ~ same levels of A/c performances, the Russians built Mig 25 (M2.7 until M.3.2 for one for test) , so do you think they still could be the best fighters of the world because of that , even with a big radar added?

At the end to go further the best way to go ahead is to stop being blind (your proper propaganda blinded you) , for example with all these recent informations it is time to accept for EFt community that there had truly some full right A/A combats in last few years : bet Rafale and EFT (IT, Ger) in Sicilia, Corsica etc.. in UAE (ATLC: EFT UK.) and they all began bet CAP in BVR and the results were always bet 4-0 to 3 -1 for Rafale even if it has been dismissed by these Air-Forces; but have you ever heard of someting in the other sense?

So have a goodnight
 

Singh

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The Rafale's long flight to India

Long after the streets emptied that chilly winter evening in December 1981, lights were burning on the 5th Floor of Vayu Bhavan (Hindi for "Air Building") in the elite Operations Branch of the Indian Air Force. Worrying the IAF's brightest thinkers was a brash new arrival in the sub-continental skies. The United States had just announced the sale of forty F-16 fighters to Pakistan, giving the Pakistan Fiza'ya (as the Pakistan Air Force styles itself) a fighter potent, fast and agile enough to upset the air power balance in the subcontinent. That F-16 purchase unleashed a set of Indian reactions that culminated in last week's decision to negotiate with French company, Dassault Aviation for 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft, the MMRCA contract for short.

India moved quickly to counter the F-16 with Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 fighters. Soon after Squadron Leader Shahid Javed landed Pakistan's first F-16 at Sargodha Air Base on 15th Jan 1983, New Delhi signed a contract with Dassault for 49 Mirage 2000s. IAF pilots began training in France and, in 1985, the first Mirage 2000s joined the IAF fleet. This was South Asia's first true "multi-role" fighter, good for strike missions, electronic warfare support, and also fast and manoeuvrable enough for air-to-air combat. From the outset, IAF pilots relished the Mirage 2000 as well as the relationship with Dassault.

Rajan Bhasin, then a young flight lieutenant and later one of the IAF's top guns, was in the first batch of eight IAF pilots who went to France in 1984 to learn how to fly the Mirage 2000. He recalls, "The Mirage 2000 was a superb fighter. And the relationship with Dassault was always completely professional. We got the fighter we paid for; and we got the training we paid for. Whenever we wanted extra, we had to pay for it. But Dassault did not cheat."

By 1987 the PAF had inducted all forty F-16s that it had contracted for and, in 1988, Pakistan ordered and paid for another 11 F-16 fighters. But though alarm bells were ringing in New Delhi and the IAF was keen to order more Mirage 2000s under an options clause in the contract, it did not do so. The purchase of the Russian MiG-29, reputedly an "F-16 buster" due to its prowess in air-to-air combat, had left no space for more Mirage 2000s.

But the IAF's enthusiasm for Dassault fighters still burned bright, especially after the Mirage 2000 demonstrated its ability to strike almost invisible Pakistani positions on the knife-edged ridges above Kargil in 1999. At the turn of the century --- with the early model MiG-21s rapidly becoming obsolete; and with their replacement, the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft still to take to the air (it first flew only in 2001) --- the IAF formally asked the MoD to buy and shift to India the entire Mirage 2000 production line that Dassault was closing down. This would allow Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to build the improved Mirage 2000-5 fighter to replace the vintage MiG-21s. And with Dassault shifting production to the new-generation Rafale fighter, France was willing and eager to sell India the Mirage 2000 line.

"The IAF told the MoD that we wanted aircraft with which we were familiar. That was the Mirage 2000 and we wanted the latest version: the Mirage 2000-5. As an air force we were very familiar and comfortable with the operational and tactical handling of the Mirage 2000," says Air Marshal (Retired) Pranab Kumar Barbora, who was Vice Chief of Air Staff till 2010.

But the MoD, stinging from the Tehelka exposes on corruption in defence procurement, feared that a single-vendor buy from Dassault might be criticised as arbitrary. Pointing out that the IAF had not availed of an "options clause" in the 1983 contract for Mirage 2000 fighters, George Fernandes' defence ministry asked the IAF to float a global tender for the very best fighter that could be bought from the international market.

Another reason for a new global tender was the fear that the Mirage 2000-5 might no longer be good enough. With the US dependency on Pakistan growing due to its presence in Afghanistan, it seemed likely that at least two more squadrons of F-16s would soon join the PAF. These would be the formidable Block 50/52 fighters with greatly improved radars and weaponry. And the PAF was also slated to get a brand new fleet of over 200 Chinese JF 17 Thunder light fighters.

Even more alarming was China's weapons and infrastructure build-up in Tibet. The old J-7 and J-8 fighters, which the IAF could comfortably handle, were now being replaced by a fleet of Russian Sukhoi-27/30 fighters, and the Chinese F-10, which reportedly fields advanced avionics bought from Israel. Suddenly the dragon was peering over the Himalayas, its Lanzhou and Chengdu Military Regions that border India incorporating 5-7 divisions of the People's Liberation Army and an improved military airfield network in Tibet with extended runways and modernised facilities. China was now a formidable aerospace power.

"We needed to boost our fighter fleet really, really, urgently," says a serving air marshal who prefers to remain anonymous. "And we were determined to implement an acquisition process which nobody in the MoD could fault or delay. Today, the IAF process has become the gold standard for fighter aircraft acquisitions worldwide. The Brazilian defence minister, who visited Delhi this week, has asked us to share details with his ministry on just how we did it."

* * * *

It began with the drawing up of specifications in Vayu Bhavan that demanded not the best available fighter in the world, but a fighter so good that it didn't yet exist. The IAF specifications included: superb aerodynamic performance; the most advanced AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar that would allow the MMRCA to detect and fire missiles before an enemy fighter realised that he was in the crosshairs; advanced electronic warfare (EW) capabilities to blind the opposition; and weaponry that was integrated seamlessly into the fighter's avionics. Everything was put down in writing before a Request for Proposal (RfP) was sent out to six global aerospace companies in August 2007.

For these companies, the big question was: which fighter to offer? Lockheed Martin had the F-22 Raptor, the world's only 5th generation fighter, which would win any competition hands-down, but would never be cleared for export. The company was also building the F-35 Lightening II Joint Strike Fighter, but that was years away from completion and could not participate in the IAF's impending flight trials. Lockheed Martin eventually fielded its most advanced Block 60 F-16 fighter, dubbed the F-16IN Super Viper, with better avionics and weaponry than any F-16 sold before. Other companies had fewer choices; Boeing fielded its F/A-18 Super Hornet; Dassault offered the Rafale; Saab, the Gripen NG which is still in the future; Eurofighter GmbH offered the Typhoon; and Russia fielded the MiG-35.

In the second half of 2008, the IAF conducted a technical evaluating of these bids, to see whether the bids conformed to the RfP. What should have been an innocuous process turned dramatic when Dassault's bid was reportedly rejected as incomplete. While this was quickly resolved by diplomatic intervention, reportedly by President Sarkozy himself, other companies are now saying that the Rafale was done a favour by being allowed back into the contest.

It was the next stage of evaluation --- flight trials --- that has established the IAF's testing process in a league of its own. Conducted by the Directorate of Air Staff Requirements (ASR), and overseen by the quiet and unflappable Air Commodore (now Air Vice Marshal) RK Dhir, each of the six contenders were flight tested by IAF pilots who tested 660 separate performance aspects of each contender aircraft. For example, the RfP demanded that the fighter's engine should be replaced within one hour. The maintenance teams actually made each contender do that. If the IAF demanded a "sustained turn rate" (the quickness with which a fighter can turn around in the air) of 24 degrees per second, each fighter was physically put through this manoeuvre to establish that it met this requirement. (Incidentally, both the American fighters failed to meet the IAF's "sustained turn rate" requirements)

Air Marshal Barbora, who oversaw the flight evaluation process as the IAF vice chief, recounts how six teams of IAF pilots, flight engineers and maintenance staff were mustered, one for each fighter that was trial evaluated. Each pilot began by learning to fly the fighter he would evaluate, while the flight engineers and maintenance staff learned the technical ropes. The IAF pilots physically flew each of the contending fighters, albeit with a "home" pilot in the second seat. This was the first time that any air force has been allowed to conduct such a fly-off.

Last April, the MoD "down-selected" the Rafale and the Typhoon, which meant that these two fighters alone had passed the flight trial evaluation. Now the game had changed; with performance established, the cheaper of the two was going to be adjudged the winner. For the first time in India, costs were not compared on the ticker price alone, but on how much the fighter would cost to buy, build, upgrade and operate over a service life of 3-4 decades. The IAF had clearly learned a lesson from the Russian MiG experience, where a cheap upfront price that seemed initially attractive led to enormous operating costs and a lower aircraft availability that meant that when the IAF paid for six squadrons, it actually had just three squadrons to fly.

Says Air Marshal (Retired) Padamjit Singh Ahluwalia, who brought in the first Mirage 2000s to India, says, "Russian fighters like the MiG-29 are great for air shows but serviceability is often a problem. When you get airborne, the radar often becomes unserviceable"¦ sometimes this happens between two sorties. The result is very low serviceability rates."

* * * *

The final countdown has begun towards signing a contract with Dassault Aviation. An MoD body called the Contract Negotiating Committee (CNC) will now engage Dassault in beating down its price, grilling Dassault's negotiators on the calculations that determined the final price of the Rafale, scanning the costs of labour and materials that go into the fighter. For example, the CNC will find out how much titanium goes into each aircraft and then check titanium prices on the London Metal Exchange. The CNC will also vet labour costs, determining the number of skilled workmen and engineers needed to build the Rafale and multiplying that with the respective labour costs (notoriously high in France). The aim will be to demonstrate to the Dassault negotiators that the Rafale can be built cheaper than the price they have quoted.

CNC negotiations will also centre on the technologies that Dassault (and its sub-vendors, like Thales) will transfer to India and the modalities for doing so. The RfP mandates that the technology for the AESA radar (which Thales builds) is to be transferred to India. The CNC will verify how that technology, and others, would actually be transferred. Offsets are another minefield that Dassault must cross, ploughing back into Indian industry at least 50% of the estimated $15-17 billion contract value of this deal. Only after these issues are resolved will a contract be actually signed. Senior IAF officers believe this could take till late-2012.

* * * *

Even as the Rafale drama unfolded, India's love affair with French fighters has continued. Around 2005, India bought ten Mirage 2000s, taking up the fleet to three squadrons. Negotiations were under way for buying 40 Mirage 2000-5 fighters from the UAE, but that stalled on the issue of price. Last year, the IAF signed a $2.4 billion deal to upgrade the Mirage 2000 fleet, extending its service life by at least another 15 years. And now, if the Rafale purchase goes through, the French seem here to stay.

Broadsword: The Rafale’s long flight to India
 

p2prada

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The Mig-29s were bought at a bad time. Right when the SU dissolved. The newer versions bought by the Navy are way better though.
 

Armand2REP

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There isn't much difference between the SMT and MiG-29K. The only redeeming features are the French upgrades. Russia refused to accept them based on their domestic avionics.
 

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