Know Your 'Rafale'

[sayareakd]

well what ambani will do is that, he is going to take half of HAL workforce and its bosses, he is going to pay them fat salaries and with new shining Plant with Capital goods from France, Factory will then start making Rafales like hot cake.

What concerns me is the fact that this is our hard earn money (taxes), which we paid to France for TOT, if Reliance and France ---- up and we didnt get TOT to the level we desire, then, it is only Ambani and us to blame.

 

[pankaj nema]

Regarding Reliance, I think its Motabhai's group that has been selected. He is relatively less of a thug compared to his chota bhai.

.

But Karthic isnt it the Motabhai who wanted the whole empire to himself and kick out the chota bhai

So how is chota bhai the bigger thug

I think that mota bhai is more greedy

 

[pankaj nema]

This is quite a bit of a coup

Reliance has managed to win over Dassault to its side

But RIL's experience in defence systems and technologies is far less than L& T and TATA

HAL employees must be tearing their hair

Already HAL has had a lot of bad press and media coverage recently

 

[Param]

well what ambani will do is that, he is going to take half of HAL workforce and its bosses, he is going to pay them fat salaries and with new shining Plant with Capital goods from France, Factory will then start making Rafales like hot cake.

What concerns me is the fact that this is our hard earn money (taxes), which we paid to France for TOT, if Reliance and France ---- up and we didnt get TOT to the level we desire, then, it is only Ambani and us to blame.

Were might the new plant come up?

 

[pankaj nema]

well what ambani will do is that, he is going to take half of HAL workforce and its bosses, he is going to pay them fat salaries and with new shining Plant with Capital goods from France, Factory will then start making Rafales like hot cake.

What concerns me is the fact that this is our hard earn money (taxes), which we paid to France for TOT, if Reliance and France ---- up and we didnt get TOT to the level we desire, then, it is only Ambani and us to blame.

This just shows that with Offsets policy coming into full effect there will be so much work to do
for Indian companies that DPSUs ie Defence PSUs alone cannot handle it

And we need to do both things effectively
ie new equipment to be manufactured quickly and technology to transferred as promised

 

[p2prada]

Sometimes situations force them to, if that is not to their liking. Like how India wanted to go ahead with IPI and in order to make the Indians pull out nuke deal was delivered.

I think the only reason IPI failed is because the Iranians wanted the pipeline to go through Pakistan while we wanted an undersea pipeline. They wanted to sell to Pakistan as well as India while expanding the pipeline to China in the process.

If the deal with Oman goes through then Iran may join in and connect their own pipeline to ours.

The IPI has nothing to do with the Nuclear deal. You can say the Nuclear deal is peanuts compared to the pipeline.

 

[pankaj nema]

I think the only reason IPI failed is because the Iranians wanted the pipeline to go through Pakistan while we wanted an undersea pipeline. They wanted to sell to Pakistan as well as India while expanding the pipeline to China in the process.

If the deal with Oman goes through then Iran may join in and connect their own pipeline to ours.

The IPI has nothing to do with the Nuclear deal. You can say the Nuclear deal is peanuts compared to the pipeline.

A under sea based pipeline will not only be very expensive but also will take much longer to build

We really dont need either IPI or the Oman pipeline

We can continue importing LNG through tankers as we are doing now

IPI is ruled out we cant trust Pakistan

Right now WE import 100 MILLION TONNES COAL Annually becuase we are short of even coal ;
from FAR OFF Australia

SO importing LNG in tankers from Gulf is not that difficult

Gulf is not far off Transport costs are not high

China too transports its crude requirements from the Gulf to Shanghai etc which is far too away and pays more
in transport costs

 

[p2prada]

Reliance isn't the primary company for Rafale. It is HAL. Reliance will be a partner with Dassault, not a big deal as long as Dassault can commit to the offset and ToT clauses satisfactorily. We are a tough customer.

 

[pankaj nema]

The IPI has nothing to do with the Nuclear deal. You can say the Nuclear deal is peanuts compared to the pipeline.

The nuclear deal has its own importance

We basically needed URANIUM We are NOT desperate for foreign reactors

Now we are cleverly buying as much Uranium from all countries and storing them for future

Our Reactors though small in size but are far cheaper in costs than what these Americans and
French are quoting

So let them wait !!! We can wait In the meanwhile we make our own reactors which will be of 700 MWe size

Then there is a WHOLE question of utilising our Thorium resources and making more
Fast breeder reactors which will happen later ie after 2020

 

[Armand2REP]

Our Reactors though small in size but are far cheaper in costs than what these Americans and
French are quoting

Your reactors per kwh cost don't come close to EPR.

 

[pankaj nema]

Your reactors per kwh cost don't come close to EPR.

Armand we have perfected the small 220 Mwe and 540 Mwe reactors
and hence the Time taken and cost of making any thing which one has PERFECTED is ALWAYS less

The 1600 MWe reactors that France is selling look sexy and are very sophisticated
but they will take at least 7 years from the day of ground breaking ceremony

We just dont buy reactors we ASK for TOT

Therefore the 1000 MW e reactors of Kudunkulam are taking so long because most of the
work is being done by us

Russians are the consultants

But Indians are GAINING hands on experience

We dont want spoon feeding SO If a reactor takes more time to build its costs
increase and commercial viability comes down because power will be available only after 7-8 years

 

[gogbot]

shocking part of this MRCA tender

Rafale Partners with Reliance
RIL should become the biggest Indian player in Combat Jets



..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: Rafale Partners with Reliance

call me crazy but ,

I was actually pleased when i heard Rafale was declared L1.

Having to negotiate with 5 different Countries and their aviation corps for parts and servicing and upgrades would have been nightmare , given how much trouble we have with just one. Not to mention having to be at the mercy of 5 different foreign polices . Our relations with some of those countries just are not at that point , and all it takes is for one to trow the spanner in the works

France was was easier to deal with and tested war time supplier.

I have no question that Rafale met and may have even exceeded the technical requirements of the IAF.

I have the feeling they were declared L1 for all the wrong reasons.

Dassault has been in India for while , i think they know very well what kind of greasing needs to be done to get things done.
Well enough and willing enough not to get caught. Don't get me wrong i am not implying Bufors.
I think they employed a lot more political capital and maneuvering to get this point.

Just recently i read , that Dassault may have artificially raised priced on Mirage Deal and others , just so that they can undercut the Rafale and that the IAF may have willingly goen along with it to make the Rafale most preferred. May or may not be true but that was described as being a "masterstroke" to me it feels like a joke and insult to the process. Honestly speaking i would not be surprised if this is how Dassault did business as fact.

That being said i was only half surprised today , when i found out about the Reliance tie up. On one Hand i don't think many people did not think to see Reliance come into Defence in such a big way. But i was not really surprised to see that Dassault choose to Reliance. They seem to be the perfect for each other. Dassault knows how to work the system , Reliance is the champ when it comes to bending the process to get your way. They are the biggest thugs in the Indian Private sector and in my opinion i think Dassault has no problem working with or being the thug(we have seen the kind hardball they play in other Defense deals, what kind of money did they ask HAL when they were asked to modify the Engine for the LOH/LUH). Given that so many Political figures have massive stakes in Reliance. It has all the political capital to get things done, and now so does Dassault. So many heavy weights are going to trow their weight around to help Reliance make as much money as possible , which means they make more money .

IAF gets the jet it wants, Dassault gets all the political pull it wants in India defence deals , Reliance gets to make an entry into Defence in a very big way. Government Babus can make even more money abusing their position, we get that private sector involvement we have been wanting for the last few years.
Sure the Tax payer losses out yet again and the process is circumvented yet again.

To me it all feels a little hollow due to my that feeling everything happened the way it happened because the powers that be had an excellent plan to make more money through their investments in Reliance and defense offsets scheme and not because Dassault was the most competitive.

Then again i said call me crazy.

 

[Yusuf]

But Karthic isnt it the Motabhai who wanted the whole empire to himself and kick out the chota bhai

So how is chota bhai the bigger thug

I think that mota bhai is more greedy

Sub ek hi thali ke chatte batte hai.
Mota ho, chhota ho ya parmatma ko pyara hua pita ho.

 

[KS]

You can say the Nuclear deal is peanuts compared to the pipeline.

Really..?The nuke deal was like the mother of all deals. Above all it was a huge endorsement of India's arrival as a power that cannot be wished away.

It opens doors to innumerable possibilities in critical tech that was previously denied. Compare that to a pipeline that was to go through Pakistan (nd that too Balochistan of all where the favorite pastime of the insurgents is blowing up pipelines when not killing punjabis) and giving Pak a critical leverage in times of hostilities.

 

[SPIEZ]

GK , there are two Australian companies which Mahindra bought. Not one .

Aerostaff Australia - www.aerostaff.com.au

GippsAero

From where does this Mahindra gets all it's funds :confused2: ?

 

[Yusuf]

Now that reliance angle has come into the picture, we will have to wait and see how many skeletons tumble out in finding out how exactly Rafale won. God help us.

 

[Bangalorean]

It is excellent for the nation is Reliance is involved in this.

They will do a much better job of ToT than PSU sloths can ever dream of doing.

Reliance and the Ambanis will get the technology to India and at long last, we will be able to produce advanced fighters indigenously. And going forward, there will be more spinoffs of this technology, and we will have Indian aerospace and defence industry boom.

Good move.

Our HAL-NAL-DRDO-LRDE types, can't be trusted to take all this ToT and come up with usable stuff. I don't have any great admiration for reliance, but they will do a better job than laggard PSUs any day.

 

[p2prada]

A under sea based pipeline will not only be very expensive but also will take much longer to build

We really dont need either IPI or the Oman pipeline

We can continue importing LNG through tankers as we are doing now

IPI is ruled out we cant trust Pakistan

Right now WE import 100 MILLION TONNES COAL Annually becuase we are short of even coal ;
from FAR OFF Australia

SO importing LNG in tankers from Gulf is not that difficult

Gulf is not far off Transport costs are not high

China too transports its crude requirements from the Gulf to Shanghai etc which is far too away and pays more
in transport costs

The capacity we need in a few years from now is going to dwarf our current consumption. We need those pipelines ASAP, or you will most definitely see a LNG cylinder for 2000 each in 5 years, not adjusted to inflation.

Pakistan is the only issue for IPI and we will get our pipeline from Oman anyway. The expense on the pipeline is negligible for the amount of business it can generate. The Oman pipeline will come for sure. Iran will be open for business once that happens.

 

[p2prada]

Really..?The nuke deal was like the mother of all deals. Above all it was a huge endorsement of India's arrival as a power that cannot be wished away.

It opens doors to innumerable possibilities in critical tech that was previously denied. Compare that to a pipeline that was to go through Pakistan (nd that too Balochistan of all where the favorite pastime of the insurgents is blowing up pipelines when not killing punjabis) and giving Pak a critical leverage in times of hostilities.

The benefits of the nuclear deal come in the future. The pipeline is for a few years from now. Say 2015. Our nuclear reactors need a lot of govt clearances and then construction will take years. Realistically the deal we signed 5 years ago will benefit us in the 2025-30 time line when we have 40GW of capacity installed. However gas fired powerplants will probably be in the 500-1000GW range by then.

Gas fired powerplants are cheap and easy to set up but fuel costs will be high. That's the problem.

I don't support a IPI through Pakistan and I am sure neither did our leadership and that's why the deal fell through. The Oman pipeline will enable Iran to jump into the game again, and this time they can be a bit more competitive.

It's funny why an Iran pipeline is bad for you guys because it is expensive and stuff like that, but everything is fine with the Oman pipeline.

 

[panduranghari]

I think the only reason IPI failed is because the Iranians wanted the pipeline to go through Pakistan while we wanted an undersea pipeline. They wanted to sell to Pakistan as well as India while expanding the pipeline to China in the process.

If the deal with Oman goes through then Iran may join in and connect their own pipeline to ours.

The IPI has nothing to do with the Nuclear deal. You can say the Nuclear deal is peanuts compared to the pipeline.

I agree. 100%. Oil is too precious.