Know Your 'Rafale'

[bhramos]

no this is some secret facility in India manned by Frenchmen.

this pic is from Dassault's French faculty, but i thaught there were no orders, but seeing this pic i felt they are building 10 per year, may be for India

 

[bhramos]

 

[arundo]

The Indians, stormed "senior government sources," had gone for the "Asda option instead of Waitrose".


By preferring the French Rafale jet rather than the British-built Typhoon, they rejected, according to the Prime Minister, a "superb aircraft with far better capabilities".
How dare they, asked MPs, snub Britain, which had given them £1.2 billion in aid? One newspaper even blamed the decision on the Gandhi family.
The truth about Britain's "failure" to land the £6.3 billion Indian military jet deal — and the thousands of jobs it will sustain - is different. The game is not yet over.
But if we do lose, it will have nothing to do with the Gandhis, or the aid — which, as we report today, the Indians simply do not care about either way. It will be because of our own mistakes.
Senior Indian figures and military aviation experts have told The Sunday Telegraph that British defence cuts played a key part in India's decision to prefer France for the huge 126-warplane contract. But they said the deal could still be rescued for the UK.
"For David Cameron to say that Typhoon has far better capabilities is embarrassing, and I say that as a strong supporter of the aircraft," said Jon Lake, defence editor at Arabian Aerospace magazine, and an expert in Asian procurement.

"It would have been true to say that it has better potential than the Rafale, but thanks to the cheeseparing of our Treasury, and the other Typhoon partner nations' treasuries, that potential has not been realised yet."

Key to the Indian decision, said one senior defence source in Delhi, was the country's wish for a radar and set of weapons which already exist on Rafale — but which are not currently present on Typhoon.

The French jet can launch a wide suite of smart weapons including Scalp, an air-launched cruise missile, Exocet, an anti-ship missile, and AASM, a precision-guided bomb with extended "stand-off" capability allowing it to be dropped from further away, reducing the risk to the pilot from anti-aircraft fire.

It also has an advanced reconnaissance pod and the latest electronic scanned array radar. This combination of capabilities proved highly effective in the recent war over Libya.

Typhoon currently has none of these things. The RAF badly wants the aircraft to have Scalp's British equivalent Storm Shadow — along with the anti-tank Brimstone missile, a reconnaissance pod, and the radar.

These capabilities, apart from the radar, are currently available on the RAF's Tornado jets and were heavily used by the British in Libya. But their arrival on Typhoon has been delayed by defence cuts.

"For the Indians it's all about credibility," said Mr Lake. "If they believe what the Typhoon consortium told them, then by 2018 Typhoon will do everything that Rafale does now. But they clearly don't believe it, and I don't blame them, given the programme's history of delays and cost overruns.

"At the moment, Typhoon can drop a laser-guided bomb, and that's it. The combination of Typhoon and Tornado was quite effective in Libya. But on its own, Typhoon was less versatile than the Rafale."

Tim Ripley, of Jane's Defence Weekly, said: "The RAF are desperate for further weapons on the Typhoon but it is something the Treasury have been trying to avoid doing. This is a crucial test of the Government's export rhetoric. The Indians ask why they should buy this kit for their own aircraft if we won't put it on ours."



Turbulence ahead with Indian jet deal - Telegraph

We can summarize it that way. EF is lots of "what-if" scenarios and paper, lots of unfinished projects but nothing concrete so far. The decision is comprehensible, if we consider the delays the EF program had to face until now and the upgrades that are very much in the future. It is easy to be the "best fighter" in theory.

- almost no strike capabilities at least until 2018
- inferior radar, since the RBE2-AA Asea is already in production and ready to be integrated on Rafale. The new EF Radar won't be ready before 2015, perhaps (if it gets the funds), is therefore just paper so far as well
- a lot of weapons not integrated yet
- probably higher operating and life cycle costs

 

[Armand2REP]

this pic is from Dassault's French faculty, but i thaught there were no orders, but seeing this pic i felt they are building 10 per year, may be for India

We are building 11 a year for the ALA and MN. To meet export orders we are willing to defer procurement for a year or two and put more money into upgrading 77 M2000s and buying 14 MMRTs. The production line has a max capacity of 24 per year. So we can meet Indian orders and others, especially since India wants to build most in country.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

British Circus..

 

[nrj]

What a crap!

 

[arundo]

We are building 11 a year for the ALA and MN. To meet export orders we are willing to defer procurement for a year or two and put more money into upgrading 77 M2000s and buying 14 MMRTs. The production line has a max capacity of 24 per year. So we can meet Indian orders and others, especially since India wants to build most in country.

Considering that the first 18 (= French made) units will be provided as soon as possible, the Armée de l'Air and Marine Nationale will only get 4 units in that year (of delivery of the first aircrafts).. Will they be happy with that ?

 

[p2prada]

Armand, do you have some information on possible development of a 90 kn M88 by SNECMA and integration on Rafale ? I've read that the engine itself wouldn't be such a challenge, but the price of its integration may require some modifications of the plane and therefore amount to several hundred million €... I think that it could be helpful in the future, close the gap to some competitors and convince the last skeptics.
How realistic is that, according to you?

I don't know about when ALA will want a 90KN engine but the funds for it are well take care of. The M88-3 will be designed primarily as a JV between India and France as the Kaveri by using mostly our money. GTRE has recently requested GoI to release $2.5Billion for it's development. Of course this would be for the LCA. The Rafale's version of M88-3 will be developed for UAE using mostly their money. That's why UAE is quite pissed off because the modifications will cost them an extra $2Billion. There are two parallel developments for the same engine and Snecma is benefiting from both.

So, are you still worried about the measly few hundred million?

I guess GTRE will be making a much more modern version of the M88-3 for the AMCA with a thrust rating of 110KN.

I am not sure if ALA or IAF is actually interested in a 90KN engine. UAE has some tough conditions to fly in as compared to France while India may base most of the Rafale in the North East, at least initially. So, the requirement may not be very important as of today.

On a lighter vein, when I wrote Rafale I had actually typed in MRCA. I erased that and replaced it with Rafale. I was elated doing that because of having spent an eternity typing MRCA in every post in the thread for over 5 years.

Considering that the first 18 (= French made) units will be provided as soon as possible, the Armée de l'Air and Marine Nationale will only get 4 units in that year (of delivery of the first aircrafts).. Will they be happy with that ?

I am quite sure they won't mind considering this deal is going to give them another 100 aircraft post 2019. Production was supposed to be closed after just 180 units. The India deal alone may push Rafale's sales worldwide and the numbers may rival EF's orders.

France was ready to provide 40 Rafales on a very short notice if the MRCA deal was linked to the Mirage upgrade and was closed without having to go through the long tender process.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...er+of+40+Rafale+fighters+to+India/1/3907.html

 

[weg]

^^^^ Rofl.

Now the British are blaming the Germans for the failure and are hoping for Dassault to fuk things up.

The mainstream press in the UK is generally clueless, but that article is better than most. With the EF there is a lead who runs the sales campaign and in the case of India it was EADS, not BAE who sold it to Saudi Arabia. Having BAE as the lead cloud have made a major difference as it has a lot more it could offer to sweeten the deal.

I'm not sure about the comment about Dassault failing over pricing, they seem to have financed (allegedly) the deal by over charging for the Mirage updates and missiles. If so, GoI could screw them by cancelling/renegotiating these two deals - now they have got the best prices for the Rafale.

The 5million price difference points to both suppliers cutting the price back to the bone and the difference is the extra weight of the Typhoon (cost of production is proportional to weight of materials).

We can summarize it that way. EF is lots of "what-if" scenarios and paper, lots of unfinished projects but nothing concrete so far. The decision is comprehensible, if we consider the delays the EF program had to face until now and the upgrades that are very much in the future. It is easy to be the "best fighter" in theory.

- almost no strike capabilities at least until 2018
- inferior radar, since the RBE2-AA Asea is already in production and ready to be integrated on Rafale. The new EF Radar won't be ready before 2015, perhaps (if it gets the funds), is therefore just paper so far as well
- a lot of weapons not integrated yet
- probably higher operating and life cycle costs

Pretty accurate assessment today. However, the fundamental design and specifications of the EF is better so this may/may not be the best decision over the next 40 years. It depends on how much success the Chinese have with their stealth fighters, but the French may promote fleets of stealth drones working in a network that will negate the stealth aspect of manned aircraft.

 

[Armand2REP]

Considering that the first 18 (= French made) units will be provided as soon as possible, the Armée de l'Air and Marine Nationale will only get 4 units in that year (of delivery of the first aircrafts).. Will they be happy with that ?

There are three years to deliver 18 aircraft. We could get 11p/y and not break a sweat. Rafale purchase is eating the largest chunk of the defence budget, so cutting that or reducing for a couple years will help fund other important ALA programmes. It is actually smart to defer awhile because we can get back to it after Indian production lowers costs. It will help us afford the 294 units we need.

 

[SpArK]

There are three years to deliver 18 aircraft. We could get 11p/y and not break a sweat. Rafale purchase is eating the largest chunk of the defence budget, so cutting that or reducing for a couple years will help fund other important ALA programmes. It is actually smart to defer awhile because we can get back to it after Indian production lowers costs. It will help us afford the 294 units we need.

Whats the latest on nEUROn?

 

[Armand2REP]

I don't know about when ALA will want a 90KN engine but the funds for it are well take care of. The M88-3 will be designed primarily as a JV between India and France as the Kaveri by using mostly our money. GTRE has recently requested GoI to release $2.5Billion for it's development. Of course this would be for the LCA. The Rafale's version of M88-3 will be developed for UAE using mostly their money. That's why UAE is quite pissed off because the modifications will cost them an extra $2Billion. There are two parallel developments for the same engine and Snecma is benefiting from both.

We really don't need that engine. It is a trade-off between more power or longer TBO times. The maintenance on those engines is more expensive. We refused to fund it for UAE because we will not us it and Rafale doesn't need it. We are looking for economy as in M88 ECO. There will be no JV for an M88-3. What will happen is Snecma will team up to make the M88-3 core for Kaveri. The uprated Kaveri will be applied to Rafale MLU and later additions. Much like Super 30 will get 117S.

 

[Armand2REP]

Whats the latest on nEUROn?

 

[Armand2REP]

The mainstream press in the UK is generally clueless, but that article is better than most. With the EF there is a lead who runs the sales campaign and in the case of India it was EADS, not BAE who sold it to Saudi Arabia. Having BAE as the lead cloud have made a major difference as it has a lot more it could offer to sweeten the deal.

Yeah, it has alot more bribes to offer. BAE would then be blacklisted like Bofors. They should be thanking the Almighty they didn't run it or the Pommes would never do defence business in India again.

I'm not sure about the comment about Dassault failing over pricing, they seem to have financed (allegedly) the deal by over charging for the Mirage updates and missiles. If so, GoI could screw them by cancelling/renegotiating these two deals - now they have got the best prices for the Rafale.

The upgrade and missile deals are already signed... to late on that since they don't want to pay penalties.

The 5million price difference points to both suppliers cutting the price back to the bone and the difference is the extra weight of the Typhoon (cost of production is proportional to weight of materials).

I am thinking the $5 million unit price difference was just on flyaway cost. It is reported that the total support offer was a good $2 billion difference.

Pretty accurate assessment today. However, the fundamental design and specifications of the EF is better so this may/may not be the best decision over the next 40 years. It depends on how much success the Chinese have with their stealth fighters, but the French may promote fleets of stealth drones working in a network that will negate the stealth aspect of manned aircraft.

Simple fact is, Rafale is 15% cheaper and more developed. It is a no brainer.

 

[Blackwater]

What a crap!

pak thinks they are the thakedar of islam

UK thinks they are the thakedar of world

 

[weg]

Simple fact is, Rafale is 15% cheaper and more developed. It is a no brainer.

There is no fact, only rumor. The L1 price was less $5million per aircraft - there is no way that could equate to 15%.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

More venom from the Brits down under


Cookies must be enabled | The Australian


France's white elephant flies to India


BY: CHARLES BREMNER From: The Times February 06, 2012 12:00AM


THERE have been so many dashed hopes for France's Rafale jet fighter that the news from India seems too good to be true. Delhi has picked the plane, built by Dassault, as its exclusive choice for a $US10 billion ($9.3bn) contract to supply its armed forces.

The deal for 126 Rafales has yet to be negotiated, but Dassault and the French government cannot believe their luck. The flying white elephant has beaten out fierce competition from the Eurofighter Typhoon. The Rafale is the pride of French military aviation but has led a jinxed life since it was test-flown in 1986 and entered service in 2000. No one outside France has bought one of the multi-role jets, despite huge efforts by Paris to unload them with sweet deals to friends and not-so-friends around the world.

President Nicolas Sarkozy has been quick to proclaim the Indian deal a win for French technology. "This goes far beyond the company that makes them, well beyond the aviation industry. It is a signal of confidence in the whole French economy," he said with typical understatement. All the better for Sarkozy, the Eurofighter was pushed hard by British PM David Cameron, who led a big sales team to India last year to make the case for the plane, part made by Britain's BAE Systems.


The plane is admired by pilots as extremely capable and agreeable to fly but critics found it ambitious and expensive - like the DS Citroen, another engineering achievement in its day.

But Dassault, maker of the legendary Mirage and the highly successful Falcon business jet, holds a special place as a symbol of national pride. The Mirage was a symbol of French post-war recovery under Charles de Gaulle. President Jacques Chirac's father worked for Marcel Dassault, the company founder. Serge Dassault, his son and the present boss, is owner of Le Figaro, Sarkozy's biggest media supporter.

Politics certainly played a part in India's decision. France supplied its air force with Dassault Mirages from the 1960s to the 90s. India sought strategic balance in its biggest military contract, so that pushed the Russians and the Americans down the list.

 

[KS]

@Armand

Is the Neuron classified tech (in the sense like Raptor, cannot be exported to outside countries) or it is available for export to countries like India ?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

edited....................


I thought i saw that British video on indians begging for their Aid on this thread!!! Strangely its not here..!

 

[Armand2REP]

Currently there are 70 Rafales in the ALA and 30 in the MN. There is one F1 sqaudron in ALA that needs immediate replacing as well as one SEM aeronaval squadron. Two years of Rafale production can replace those 2 and clear the way for a dry spell of French deliveries. With 77 upgraded M2000 in the meantime our airforces will be doing pretty good. Navy will have 3 full Rafale squadrons and both services can put obsolete planes to bed.