Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

@Armand

Is the Neuron classified tech (in the sense like Raptor, cannot be exported to outside countries) or it is available for export to countries like India ?

Everything Europe makes is available for export. We don't have the scale US defence companies have access to so it must be made available to meet scale.

 

[p2prada]

@Armand

Is the Neuron classified tech (in the sense like Raptor, cannot be exported to outside countries) or it is available for export to countries like India ?

Currently Neuron is a TD. We will see when a prototype is made. But we already have our own AURA program. Foreign options will be considered only if AURA fails or is delayed.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There are no doubts, AURA will have Neuron inputs, More like a JV..

 

[Armand2REP]

Czech Republic will not renew lease on Gripen, Saab barred from replacement tender

TSAMTO, February 3. The Czech government has decided to leave the Air Force fighter jets the country after 2015, when the leasing agreement expires JAS-39 "Gripen," said Czech Prime Minister Petr Necas after a meeting of the Cabinet.
As reported by CTK, the decision means that the Czech Republic does not waive the protection of airspace of the country's own means, and will continue to meet its obligations to allies. However, the cabinet postponed a final decision on the acquisition of combat aircraft until the economic situation improves in the country. According to the Prime Minister, with the available budget and the current economic situation, the government now finds it impossible to declare the tender.

In this regard, the Government instructed the Defence Minister Alexandr Vondra to hold talks with representatives of the Swedish government to address the issue "in the interim phase", which provides for the continued use of 14 aircraft JAS-39 "Gripen". Probably, this is either an extension of the lease agreement, or on redemption of aircraft, allowing the base contract. The Minister must inform the Government on the outcome of negotiations by mid-2012, after which a decision on the matter. According to the information resource E15.cz, Czech Ministry of Defense declined to extend the lease. The "interim period" shall not exceed the term of five years.

It should be noted that the previous Prime Minister Petr Necas played for the immediate conduct of the tender for the supply of fighters. In addition, he stated that to obtain complete information about the circumstances of the conclusion of the first lease agreement in order to identify cases of corruption, a provider of aircraft (ie the company "Saab") has no chance to participate in the contest.

ЦАМТО / Новости / Чехия оставит истребители на вооружении после 2015 года и закупит новые РЛС

 

[sukhish]

British Circus..

Initially i was a strong supporter of typhoon, but these reports really changing my mind. I was more focused on engine performance and A2A capability,
it appears that rafale has a proven trak record and a much more advanced reconnaissance technology. also the cockpit of rafale does truly looks like the 4.5 generation, for the typhoon the cockpit is a big disappointment. I mean the layout of the typhoon cockpit looks very similar to that of the tejas.

RAFALE ALL THE WAY. good decesion by MoD.

 

[sukhish]

There are no doubts, AURA will have Neuron inputs, More like a JV..

since we have given quite a substantial contracts to france in recent months, I think we should have some JV in he UAV , engine technology and so many other places where we are lagging. this has the potential of turning into a very big strategic partnership, just like the one we have with russia. french also have very solid experience in making subs and naval assault vechiles, recently russia was impressed with the mistral and have ordered one for their own navy, that itself speaks volumes about the faith in french technology. I'm going to uncorck some french vine today, all these months I was driking california wine, it's time for some french now.

 

[nitesh]

Lets see, MMRCA will be signed in a few months, another 3 years for the first squadron. Made in India will continue another 10 years until 2025. Rafale will be around until 2055 easy. With active cancellation coming to Spectra, it will be relevant long into the 21st century.

Armand, i will not share the optimism, by 2040-2045 the first of the air frames will be old enough to be in line for replacements, may be these technologies can be used in some other way on newer platforms. But certainly not the platform.

How ever, according to EF partners, all is not over yet, Dassault has entered in to exclusive negotiations, need to see how the negotiations go, may EF can come back to reckoning.

 

[utubekhiladi]

pak thinks they are the thakedar of islam

UK thinks they are the thakedar of world

and USA thinks that they are the thakedar of both UK and pak

 

[Armand2REP]

The only thing that can derail this now is a bribery charge or FinMin cancelling the whole deal.

 

[Vladimir79]

Don't get a big head Armand. Russia accounted for 80% of Indian imports last year. You have a long way to go to knock us off our pedestal.

 

[sukhish]

Vladimir,
I know russia has been a major source of military hardware for India, but french are also second to none. as a matter of fact french are willing to give us E&R technologies ( which were promised under the 2008 India NSG exemption ), but russia lately was dithering on this issue. they wanted to have an enrichment facility in russia and not in india. french have supported us in the past during tough times, so no wonder india's strategic community would be inclined to give french what it is worth for. offcourse India would negotiate hard, but that's expected. also from now onwards deals like these would come every now and then. India is mordeninsing it's forces and we already have the Pak-FA contract with russia, which will be worth $20 billion.

 

[sukhish]

the way I see it , India is going to relying on russia and france for major strike weapons. somehow India is not sold to the U.S & UK friendship idea. india still remember that at the time of need france/russia stood by it. we could have gone for the euro fighter typhoon, but germans and british have mood swings like a pregnant woman, and India can't afford it. India is living in the most hostile neighborhood, fanatic taliban on one side and communist china on the other. we want 200% guarantee that when the crunch time arrives, we should be able to get what we want from our partners. that's the least we expect.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

the way I see it , India is going to relying on russia and france for major strike weapons. somehow India is not sold to the U.S & UK friendship idea. india still remember that at the time of need france/russia stood by it. we could have gone for the euro fighter typhoon, but germans and british have mood swings like a pregnant woman, and India can't afford it. India is living in the most hostile neighborhood, fanatic taliban on one side and communist china on the other. we want 200% guarantee that when the crunch time arrives, we should be able to get what we want from our partners. that's the least we expect.

You can also add Israel to the list. The Brahmos test that failed using US GPS
was a bad start leading to the trust deficit along with letting PAK modifying Harpoons,F16 etc..

 

[nitesh]

To add in to sukkish post:

Why India chose Rafale

The collaborations that France has offered India in recent years in the field of intelligence sharing and upgrade are without parallel. Naturally, this is an area where co-operation cannot be publicised by the very nature of such engagement.

India and France face somewhat similar threats of domestic terrorism, vastly different from the threats faced by the US, Russia or even Israel. The assistance that Paris has offered New Delhi in preparing the country against such threats and the constant upgrading of their assistance went a long way towards creating an environment that favoured the French on the aircraft deal.

It was in direct contrast to Washington's approach: the bulk of India's intelligence community and key bureaucrats at decision-making levels believe that the Americans two-timed New Delhi on David Coleman Headley, their double agent in Chicago who played a major role in the Pakistan-supported terrorist attack on Mumbai in 2008.

In addition, spread across India's entire political spectrum that includes much of the Opposition, is a firm conviction that India would not have come out unscathed from the decision to conduct the 1998 nuclear tests if it were not for the steadfast backing that President Jacques Chirac — and Nicolas Sarkozy after him — offered India in an hour of great need.

It is not widely known that during the Kargil war in 1999, the French approved with lightning speed the adaptation of Indian Air Force Mirages in tandem with equally speedy Israeli supplies of laser-guided bombs which they delivered in Srinagar: without such French and Israeli support, India could have lost Kargil to Pervez Musharraf's perfidy.

No honourable Indian in uniform can forget that in such a situation, the US or Britain would have probably suspended all military supplies to the combatants to prove their bona fides as honest brokers for peace.

Policies may be the result of collective decision-making in governments, but within that framework, individuals do matter. One such individual who has left a mark on Franco-Indian relations is Jean-David Levitte, whose critical role in securing the Rafale deal for his country will never become a matter of public record because of the nature of his job.

Levitte is diplomatic adviser and "Sherpa" to Sarkozy, who made amends for the temperamental mistakes during his President's first visit to India as chief guest during Republic Day celebrations in New Delhi and organised a second trip that turned out to be one of most productive and substantive visits by any head of state to India.

Levitte was senior diplomatic adviser to Chirac too when Brajesh Mishra, the then principal secretary to Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, flew to Paris as his first stop abroad seeking diplomatic support after the Pokhran II nuclear tests. Mishra found such support in Paris before he extracted reluctant support from Moscow.

Soon afterwards, Levitte became French permanent representative to the UN in New York where he led, along with Russia, a split among the five permanent members of the Security Council on the issue of punishing India through sanctions on the nuclear issue. Later he was ambassador in Washington.

Two of the countries which have been after the multi-role combat aircraft deal, the US and Britain, were at that time in the forefront of efforts in the Security Council to choke India into submission and roll back its nuclear programme.

Within the political and civilian leadership of India's defence establishment, there has been no doubt that other things being equal, India should reward a friend in need, in this case, France.

 

[Armand2REP]

Don't get a big head Armand. Russia accounted for 80% of Indian imports last year. You have a long way to go to knock us off our pedestal.

That's because the big ticket French deals haven't gone into full swing yet. India only started importing the guts of Scorpene, no M2000 upgrades or missile imports yet. Once MMRCA gets going it will give France 50%. Your big deals are winding down. Nerpa delivered, payments on Gorshkov just about finished, frigates winding down, Kilo upgrades finished, T-90 kits done, MKI kits done. You don't even get to upgrade your T-72s. Russia will still have a large share with support contracts, but then India is turning away from Russia for support. You are getting your arse whooped by the US in big-ticket second line equipment. You are getting whooped by France on front line big-ticket equipment. Then there is always Israel to steal your pie.

 

[JAISWAL]

India's MMRCA selection advances decade- long search for MiG-21 replacement

IN FOCUS: India’s MMRCA selection advances decade-long search for MiG-21 replacement | idrw.org
++
IN FOCUS:- India's MMRCA selection advances decade- long search for MiG-21 replacement
.
.
SOURCE: FLIGHT GLOBAL
India's 31 January selection of the Dassault Rafale
for its more than $10 billion medium multi-role
combat aircraft (MMRCA) requirement launches
the next stage in a tortuous competition that had
its origins a decade ago, when the Indian air force
favoured the French company's Mirage 2000-5
fighter.
The Rafale (below) and Eurofighter Typhoon had
been in contention for the 126-aircraft deal since
April 2011, when a downselect decision eliminated
previous rivals the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super
Hornet; Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60; RSK
MiG-35; and Saab Gripen NG.
If exclusive negotiations with Dassault prove
successful, the Indian air force will receive 18
Rafales delivered by the company in fly-away
condition, with the remaining 108 to be produced
in India by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL). India
requires offsets valuing 50% of the total MMRCA
price tag as part of the acquisition.
India's initial tender for the MMRCA capability
stipulated 660 requirements, and the first
proposals issued by the airframers ran to
5,000-6,000 pages each. Comprehensive field
tests of each aircraft were then undertaken,
including flying the aircraft – borrowed from
various air forces – to India at the manufacturers'
expense.
There they were subjected to batteries of tests
reflecting India's varied geography. Flights were
conducted from Bengaluru in tropical conditions,
over the desert of Jaisalmer and at Leh in the
Himalayas, said to be the highest operational air
base in the world.
"We spent quite a lot on the tests with no
guarantee of a sale," said an executive involved in
the race. "That said, the air force got a very good
impression of all the aircraft."
The downselect decision was not without
controversy. One of the original stipulations of
the tender, for example, was an operational active
electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. At the
time of the tests, only the F-16 and Super Hornet
had operational AESA sets.
US industry sources hinted that bitter memories
of arms sanctions in the 1990s prompted New
Delhi to eliminate both American fighters.
Once acquired, the Indian air force's new MMRCA
fleet will replace its aged RSK MiG-21 interceptors,
which have become the subject of national
scrutiny because of a high accident rate involving
the type. The incoming model will join a growing
combat inventory of Sukhoi and HAL-built
Su-30s, plus upgraded Dassault Mirage 2000s,
Sepecat/HAL Jaguars and Aeronautical
Development Agency Tejas light combat aircraft.
Other assets include MiG-23, -27 and -29 strike
aircraft.
Although New Delhi's move to start negotiations
with Dassault stems from the Rafale beating the
Typhoon on price, the French type also
performed well during NATO- and US-led
operations over Libya during 2011, including
flights performed with M-model aircraft from the
deck of the aircraft carrier the Charles de Gaulle.

 

[pankaj nema]

Yes Armand you are right But FGFA ; Additional Su 30 mki ; More Smerch and T 90s will still
keep Russian arms sales at 50 percent of our total figure

Then we can get some strategic systems like Tu 22 ,MIRV technology ,SLBM technology
S 300/ 400 QUIETLY and secretly

I have a theory that many things bought from Russia WERE ;ARE and WILL be secret

Suppose in future if it DOES NOT add up , I mean if Russia says that it has sold so much to India
ie X billion dollars worth of arms ;
And India is NOT declaring any NEW item then it means that some hidden and secret purchases
have been made

For instance we do HAVE more MIG 29s AND More KILO submarines than that are OFFICIALLY declared

 

[bhramos]

That's because the big ticket French deals haven't gone into full swing yet. India only started importing the guts of Scorpene, no M2000 upgrades or missile imports yet. Once MMRCA gets going it will give France 50%. Your big deals are winding down. Nerpa delivered, payments on Gorshkov just about finished, frigates winding down, Kilo upgrades finished, T-90 kits done, MKI kits done. You don't even get to upgrade your T-72s. Russia will still have a large share with support contracts, but then India is turning away from Russia for support. You are getting your arse whooped by the US in big-ticket second line equipment. You are getting whooped by France on front line big-ticket equipment. Then there is always Israel to steal your pie.

http://indrus.in/articles/2012/01/25/russia_to_supply_77_billion_worth_of_arms_to_india_14608.html

CAWAT attributes this breakthrough in the Russian-Indian military and technical cooperation in 2012 to supplies within the framework of several large-scale programmes (the centre calculates the value of supplies on the basis of actual deliveries). It is reported that a considerable part of the supplies will be behind the original schedule, "which will entail this impressive result in 2012."

 

[Armand2REP]

Yes Armand you are right But FGFA ; Additional Su 30 mki ; More Smerch and T 90s will still
keep Russian arms sales at 50 percent of our total figure

FGFA if they are able to develop it, big if considering their deficit in avioncs. MKI and T-90 production lines are already fully domestic. The biggest value on T-90 is imported equipment, half of the cost being French thermal imagers. There is still good value to be had on MKI equipment, but it is dwarfed by the cost of MMRCA equipment. Smerch comes with French SIGMA-30 navigation and fire-control system which is half the cost. Russia sells you kit that has as much French components in it. Russia doesn't produce modern electronics so you we are seeing more and more French in their gear.

Then we can get some strategic systems like Tu 22 ,MIRV technology ,SLBM technology
S 300/ 400 QUIETLY and secretly

Russia shutdown the engine factory for Tu-22M3 and is canabalising all but 30 of them so not gonna happen. They can't and won't send you proliferation technologies. India has plenty of chances to buy S-300/400, they don't want it.

I have a theory that many things bought from Russia WERE ;ARE and WILL be secret

There are no secrets in India... thank a free press.

For instance we do HAVE more MIG 29s AND More KILO submarines than that are OFFICIALLY declared

You have exactly what is documented. It is no secret what India has and doesn't have. The fact is Russia isn't keeping up in arms development or reliable supply chains. India is turning elsewhere and as these mega deals wind down, Russia's share goes down and France goes up.

 

[KS]

That's because the big ticket French deals haven't gone into full swing yet. India only started importing the guts of Scorpene, no M2000 upgrades or missile imports yet. Once MMRCA gets going it will give France 50%. Your big deals are winding down. Nerpa delivered, payments on Gorshkov just about finished, frigates winding down, Kilo upgrades finished, T-90 kits done, MKI kits done. You don't even get to upgrade your T-72s. Russia will still have a large share with support contracts, but then India is turning away from Russia for support. You are getting your arse whooped by the US in big-ticket second line equipment. You are getting whooped by France on front line big-ticket equipment. Then there is always Israel to steal your pie.

Don't forget the FGFA. That is almost 1.5 times the value of the MRCA deal.

The Russians will still be there for the next 2 decades min.