Know Your 'Rafale'

[IndianHawk]

The engine is one thing. An AESA radar is onother, more important.

Perhaps that's why negotiations are stuck. Maybe India is waiting for either su57 aesa to mature to port it into su30 upgrade or to scale up Uttam for the task.

 

[IndianHawk]

Something's up. Safran has picked up french ambassador to India .

Rumours are coming true!

 

[WolfPack86]

First #Rafale packed for delivery to the @IAF_MCC . Final assembly will be done at DRAL

 

[uoftotaku]

Something's up. Safran has picked up french ambassador to India .

Rumours are coming true!

Nothing big. Very common in France for Diplomatic and Corporate posts to cross over as they all attend the same elite school. Also Safran like most large French def companies has the Govt as a shareholder.

 

[mayfair]

First #Rafale packed for delivery to the @IAF_MCC . Final assembly will be done at DRAL

I thought we were buying these planes off the shelf i.e flyaway plus Indian specific enhancements plus weapons. DRAL is no suppose to assemble any of this lot.

 

[Deathstar]

I thought we were buying these planes off the shelf i.e flyaway plus Indian specific enhancements plus weapons. DRAL is no suppose to assemble any of this lot.

Thats mis reported , he corrected it in his reply tweet

 

[WolfPack86]

Apologies, this is the fuselage of the first delivery bird for #India being delivered for final assembly to the #Rafale line at Bordeaux . The jet will be flown to #India post tests.

 

[IndianHawk]

Nothing big. Very common in France for Diplomatic and Corporate posts to cross over as they all attend the same elite school. Also Safran like most large French def companies has the Govt as a shareholder.

It's big. Because just a few days ago an article predicted this would happen as India France are working on engine production.

That rumour proved too. The same article said India France set up INFRA for joint engine product. Chances are that is also true now.

On top of this we have rumours of 200 rafale .

Adding all things up there is something big going to happen to Indian military aviation.

My guess is that govt has seen limits of Russian cooperation in next gen aviation technology and is bringing France as a new top partner for aviation.

As well as transformation of IAF from primary Russian equipment to western / Indian equipment force with emphasis on western way of Avionics and war tactics as well as maintenance.

A comprehensive deal with France for 100+ rafale will provide IAF

1.) technology lead over china for the next decade ( j20 will take decade or more to mature)

2) indegenios engine or atleast a joint indo french engine ( much more advanced than Russia engines and hence generations ahead of china while free from USA sanctions .)

Or there could be two engine ( a complete indegenios for replacement of f404 and a joint engine for AMCA / mwf)

3. ) Tech for AMCA Avionics. True stealth is the capabilities of passive sensors that is why j20 and su57 are both are considered inferior. With french participation AMCA could have more advanced Avionics than j20 and could be as deadly as f35.

4.) A technological roadmap for future with continuous upgrade of mwf and AMCA with 6th gen technologies which France will develop for next fighter.

That way we will be able to reach near parity with Western aviation in next 20-30 years.

French cooperation could also span into civilian aviation sector with airbus assembly in India in future including engines.

At the root of it all may be deeper strategic partnerships of France and India where India realises limits of Russian technology and France realises unreliability of USA and weaknesses of europe ( with UK Brexiting and a Pacifist Germany dragging down defense ).

France gets a huge market in India for next 20-30 years for different technologies and India gets better tech than Russia ( far ahead of china).

France also needs a new carrier after Charles de guale. Here too India and France can jointly design and develop an ultra modern carries together bringing down costs .
( France tried the same with UK but delayed it's it's own new carrier later.)

France wants to preserve its strategic autonomy and wants to maintain full fledged military on its own. India wants the same. Both can co-operate much deeply than India - USA of USA -france.

I'm sensing a new strategic alliances emerging which could take USA and Russia by surprise while sending china into deep despair.

 

[uoftotaku]

Well, all the benefits you have mentioned are what France itself has been harping to successive Indian govts with varying levels of success since the 1950's.

France has maintained, very fiercely, its advanced industrial base and both military and political independence for a very long time. The politics has gradually become intertwined with US interests in the last 20 years or so but the French still go about business with their own way.

In all aspects, the France-India partnership was always going to be one which worked out best due to a good balance of power. France will never be in a position to bully or coerce India unlike the US or Russia and they have far more openness when it comes to sharing technology.

Anyway, let's wait and see. For all the positivism and optimism, both French and Indian bureaucrats have an uncanny ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory during negotiations. And our side doesn't have the best reputation when it comes these matters.

I won't pop the champagne until I see the factories being built and orders flowing.

 

[IndianHawk]

Well, all the benefits you have mentioned are what France itself has been harping to successive Indian govts with varying levels of success since the 1950's.

France has maintained, very fiercely, its advanced industrial base and both military and political independence for a very long time. The politics has gradually become intertwined with US interests in the last 20 years or so but the French still go about business with their own way.

In all aspects, the France-India partnership was always going to be one which worked out best due to a good balance of power. France will never be in a position to bully or coerce India unlike the US or Russia and they have far more openness when it comes to sharing technology.

Anyway, let's wait and see. For all the positivism and optimism, both French and Indian bureaucrats have an uncanny ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory during negotiations. And our side doesn't have the best reputation when it comes these matters.

I won't pop the champagne until I see the factories being built and orders flowing.

Yup it's the bureaucracy. We could have been flowing 150 mirage by , manufactured in India thus upgrading Indian standards. If not for short sighted bureaucrates on both side.

Hopefully this time politicians will rein in bureaucracy .

IAF always wanted western equipment to balance Russian dependence. Bureaucray sabotaged mirage deal and mmrca and now we are overdependent on Russia which is leveraging it with delays in tot and spares and overinflated prices.

Time to switch the matrix .

 

[WolfPack86]

#France Strongly Pitches 2nd Lot Of 36 Rafale Fighters, Seeks Movement On Stalled Aircraft Programmes


.

A Strategic Dialogue between the Indian and French National Security Advisers in New Delhi on August 29 sought to take forward quickly the proposals put on the table to scale up Defence and Strategic sector cooperation between the two sides. The meeting in New Delhi between India’s National Security Adviser Ajit Doval and his visiting French counterpart Emmanuel Bonne took place exactly a week after the Summit meeting between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Emmanuel Macron in Paris.

While there was no official statement on the Strategic Dialogue on August 29, sources suggested that the purpose was to give quick momentum to implementation of the Summit outcomes and proposals, with particular focus on Defence, Nuclear Energy, Space, Cyber Security, Counter-Terrorism and Indo-Pacific partnership.

Bonne, the Foreign Policy Advisor to President Macron, also reportedly sought renewed momentum to several stalled or ongoing procurements involving the Airbus C-295 transport aircraft for the IAF – and possibly the Indian Coast Guard (ICG) and Navy too – the A330 for the IAF’s Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) and AWACS requirements, the AS565 MBe Panther and H145 for the Naval Utility Helicopter programme and the H225M for the ICG



A widely reported proposal relates to the French offer for a second batch of 36 Rafale fighters at an estimated cost of about 6 Billion Euros. The first contract for 36 flyaway, Made in France Rafales in 2016 was signed for 7.8 Billion Euros and generated a lot of political controversy in India. The second batch is on offer cheaper mainly because the cost of India Specific Enhancements and creation of infrastructure in India will not have to be incurred again.

The Indian Air Force (IAF), which is at least 10 squadrons short of the authorised fighter strength of 42 squadrons, and faces the prospect of further depletion of its ageing fleet, seeks quick replenishment, even if in part, particularly in the context of hightened military challenges.

Bonne, the Foreign Policy Advisor to President Macron, also reportedly sought renewed momentum to several stalled or ongoing procurements involving the Airbus C-295 transport aircraft for the IAF – and possibly the Indian Coast Guard (ICG) and Navy too – the A330 for the IAF’s Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) and AWACS requirements, the AS565 MBe Panther and H145 for the Naval Utility Helicopter programme and the H225M for the ICG.

The French agenda also includes the building of what will be the world’s largest nuclear power plant at Jaitapur in Rajasthan, and, as first reported by SP’s Naval Forces, the offer of cooperation in the Indian programme to build 6 nuclear powered attack submarines (SSN).

Bonne also called on Prime Minister Modi during his short visit to New Delhi. The French agenda also includes the building of what will be the world’s largest nuclear power plant at Jaitapur in Rajasthan, and, as first reported by SP’s Naval Forces, the offer of cooperation in the Indian programme to build 6 nuclear powered attack submarines (SSN).

The joint statement released after the Summit meeting on August 22 emphasised reaffirmation of the “commitment to further strengthen cooperation in defence industry field and extended their support to existing and upcoming partnerships between the defence companies of the two countries in the spirit of “Make in India” and for the mutual benefit of both countries”.

“Both sides noted with satisfaction that Indian MSMEs are increasingly becoming part of global supply chains of French Defence and Aerospace OEMs and reaffirmed to give further impetus to this trend. They welcomed the ongoing collaboration between aerospace and defence industrial associations of both countries, SIDM for India and GIFAS for France,” the statement added.

The two leaders had also expressed satisfaction on the implementation of the 2016 Rafale contract, ahead of the first lot scheduled of the French fighters slated to be handed over to the IAF on schedule on September 19.

Another French priority is to project itself as a big player in the Indo-Pacific, with India as its key partner. It has also announced the appointment of a liaison officer at the Indian Navy’s Information Fusion Centre – Indian Ocean Region (IFC-IOR) at Gurugram.

The French proposal reportedly includes 12 satellites for monitoring the Indian Ocean Region.

The agenda for Space cooperation includes the training of medical support personnel for Indian ‘Gagannauts’ for the manned space mission in 2022.

“The leaders welcomed signing of an Implementing Arrangement for establishment of a framework for the realization of joint maritime domain awareness mission. They also hailed the launch of a Space Climate Observatory that further enhances Indo-French cooperation on combating climate change, besides TRISHNA joint mission and accommodating Argos in Oceansat 3. In an increasingly threatened environment, they have also resolved to act together at the international level to promote norms and best practices necessary for guaranteeing the safety of space missions,” the Summit joint statement added.
.https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[Wisemarko]

France will never share anything new. They may share some 1980s tech at exorbitant price. They are known to deny even basic ToT. Ask Israelis. French defense products are generally a decade behind US and cost significantly more due to higher wages and smaller scale. India was right to cancel 126 jet contract with Dassault because India would have learned nothing from that assembly.

The only partner that gives real technology to manufacture is US. Just look at how many nations make F-35, F-16, C-130, Apache parts and upgrade packages. India is finally exporting weapons thanks to Boeing and Lockheed. This can get much bigger if India selects more US weapons.

India hasn’t exported any weapons or parts back to Russia and Russians haven’t utilized Indian companies in their supply chain despite selling $100 billion worth weapons. F-21 may not be ideal for IAF but with AMRAAM Model-D it’s good enough to deter any enemy. India in return will make more money by supplying global chain of F-16s and learn invaluable lessons in aircraft manufacturing.

Food for thought.

 

[Armand2REP]

The only partner that gives real technology to manufacture is US.

I don't know what you are smoking but it must be good.

 

[Deathstar]

I don't know what you are smoking but it must be good.

But he is right in one thing , US companies defence offset exports have help us turn it into 10000 crore , i dont remember aby Russian , French company doing what Boeing and Lockheed are doing in terms of exports from India.
Only thing i oppose is though US is ahead in tech but the only condition to get all that tech is if u surrender your foreign policy
Eg South Korea , Japan received immense tech and aid from US post world war but their foreign policy is under US

 

[Wisemarko]

But he is right in one thing , US companies defence offset exports have help us turn it into 10000 crore , i dont remember aby Russian , French company doing what Boeing and Lockheed are doing in terms of exports from India.
Only thing i oppose is though US is ahead in tech but the only condition to get all that tech is if u surrender your foreign policy
Eg South Korea , Japan received immense tech and aid from US post world war but their foreign policy is under US

India is large, has nukes and very independent.
US can not dictate what India does. That should not be the main reason to decide defense deals.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

The only partner that gives real technology to manufacture is US.

US has always denied to provide any technology to India. It's last country India looks at for tech for a very good reason.

France will never share anything new. They may share some 1980s tech at exorbitant price. They are known to deny even basic ToT.

Facts don't agree, major defense projects like aircrafts, rocket engines and LVs were sourced & learnt from France.

They are known to deny even basic ToT. Ask Israelis. French defense products are generally a decade behind US and cost significantly more due to higher wages and smaller scale.

Well, we can expect from France only. As US will never provide what India wants, where it stands is out of question.

French are known to give something after charging money. They made in Indian rocket engines, Indian helicopters & fighters (ever compare Tejas with Mirage).

Just look at how many nations make F-35, F-16, C-130, Apache parts and upgrade packages.

US denies that scale to India for some "basic agreements" that will make India a sidekick of them.

India hasn’t exported any weapons or parts back to Russia and Russians haven’t utilized Indian companies in their supply chain despite selling $100 billion worth weapons.

Yet Russians taught us assembly, supported us in very critical projects like nuclear submarines.

Americans denied THAAD missile when we approached them and they now are offering it when India has made it's own (PDV). Timely, we get sanctions from same country. It's visible which country tries to inhibit Indian growth.

F-21 may not be ideal for IAF but with AMRAAM Model-D it’s good enough to deter any enemy.

We again are now near realizing our own version of these missiles, Astra & SFDR.

India in return will make more money by supplying global chain of F-16s and learn invaluable lessons in aircraft manufacturing.

1. F-16 class planes (as per schedule) will start to retire from IAF after 10 years. Indian Air Force itself has rejected it. We are looking for a production line to make planes for improving our numbers first, not exporting them (that even on US consensus). We most obviously would like to sell (and not sell) independently to whoever we want to.
2. India has finally learnt aircraft manufacturing. We are looking for what's best to manufacture.

 

[Wisemarko]

US has always denied to provide any technology to India. It's last country India looks at for tech for a very good reason.

Facts don't agree, major defense projects like aircrafts, rocket engines and LVs were sourced & learnt from France.

Well, we can expect from France only. As US will never provide what India wants, where it stands is out of question.

French are known to give something after charging money. They made in Indian rocket engines, Indian helicopters & fighters (ever compare Tejas with Mirage).

US denies that scale to India for some "basic agreements" that will make India a sidekick of them.

Yet Russians taught us assembly, supported us in very critical projects like nuclear submarines.

Americans denied THAAD missile when we approached them and they now are offering it when India has made it's own (PDV). Timely, we get sanctions from same country. It's visible which country tries to inhibit Indian growth.

We again are now near realizing our own version of these missiles, Astra & SFDR.

1. F-16 class planes (as per schedule) will start to retire from IAF after 10 years. Indian Air Force itself has rejected it. We are looking for a production line to make planes for improving our numbers first, not exporting them (that even on US consensus). We most obviously would like to sell (and not sell) independently to whoever we want to.
2. India has finally learnt aircraft manufacturing. We are looking for what's best to manufacture.

Lol.. ok. Carry on. Sounds like India has already done everything and doesn’t need US at all.

 

[Deathstar]

Lol.. ok. Carry on. Sounds like India has already done everything and doesn’t need US at all.

No not at all , India needs US in terms of tech and some deals are reserved to buy diplomatic support. India is one of the few to operate P8is.
Both need each other .But Indian policy has always been eggs in many baskets ,thats why Apache, P8is , C17s , C130js , M777 howitzers etc from US , A/C , aircrafts from Russia , aircrafts from France.
US is one of the few countries which we have trade surplus with, in return Indian service sector contributes to US economy , India provides cheap service labour with huge talent to the US tech companies. US is a very important partner of India.
India is huge market for American products be it Apple , Intel , Microsoft , Google , fast food chains etc

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Lol.. ok. Carry on. Sounds like India has already done everything and doesn’t need US at all.

India needs to do a lot. But US won't give anything at all and just is making attempts for free ride and should be treated accordingly.

It's same country that sent nuclear flotilla invade us and put sanctions after sanctions not very long ago.

Yes, India will try to exploit opportunities from US. But one who says that US is actually "willing" to cooperate is an idiot. It's here for interests and will throw India under the bus immediately again as soon as it's interests are served.

India is large, has nukes and very independent.
US can not dictate what India does. That should not be the main reason to decide defense deals.

US can't dictate India that's why lots of deals are stalled. You got however very loyal slaves like @asianobserve who bump anywhere to like stupid posts & make same.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

It's big. Because just a few days ago an article predicted this would happen as India France are working on engine production.

That rumour proved too. The same article said India France set up INFRA for joint engine product. Chances are that is also true now.

On top of this we have rumours of 200 rafale .

Adding all things up there is something big going to happen to Indian military aviation.

My guess is that govt has seen limits of Russian cooperation in next gen aviation technology and is bringing France as a new top partner for aviation.

As well as transformation of IAF from primary Russian equipment to western / Indian equipment force with emphasis on western way of Avionics and war tactics as well as maintenance.

A comprehensive deal with France for 100+ rafale will provide IAF

1.) technology lead over china for the next decade ( j20 will take decade or more to mature)

2) indegenios engine or atleast a joint indo french engine ( much more advanced than Russia engines and hence generations ahead of china while free from USA sanctions .)

Or there could be two engine ( a complete indegenios for replacement of f404 and a joint engine for AMCA / mwf)

3. ) Tech for AMCA Avionics. True stealth is the capabilities of passive sensors that is why j20 and su57 are both are considered inferior. With french participation AMCA could have more advanced Avionics than j20 and could be as deadly as f35.

4.) A technological roadmap for future with continuous upgrade of mwf and AMCA with 6th gen technologies which France will develop for next fighter.

That way we will be able to reach near parity with Western aviation in next 20-30 years.

French cooperation could also span into civilian aviation sector with airbus assembly in India in future including engines.

At the root of it all may be deeper strategic partnerships of France and India where India realises limits of Russian technology and France realises unreliability of USA and weaknesses of europe ( with UK Brexiting and a Pacifist Germany dragging down defense ).

France gets a huge market in India for next 20-30 years for different technologies and India gets better tech than Russia ( far ahead of china).

France also needs a new carrier after Charles de guale. Here too India and France can jointly design and develop an ultra modern carries together bringing down costs .
( France tried the same with UK but delayed it's it's own new carrier later.)

France wants to preserve its strategic autonomy and wants to maintain full fledged military on its own. India wants the same. Both can co-operate much deeply than India - USA of USA -france.

I'm sensing a new strategic alliances emerging which could take USA and Russia by surprise while sending china into deep despair.

Sir good post but will only give LIKE when something SIGNIFICANT HAPPEN ON ENGINE PART otherwise OLD FRENCH WAY OF SELLING THINGS.
Waiting for our French friends here to say something on this though.
I don't know what happened in scorpene fiasco yes fiasco but can't understand why navy is not going for repeat order.
Surely something happened that made navy not to repeat orders from French maybe ASKING PRICE FOR GIVING PRECIOUS TECHNOLOGY was more than us can handle.
That's with every country. :bounce: