Know Your 'Rafale'

[Sridhar_TN]

Order from whom ?

They are buying older one to cannibalize for spare parts to keep the one with airframe life left to use operational. French jet means spare parts will come from France at premium cost.

Orders from all over the world. Third hand and fourth hand. Read up on it.

They’re keeping them active because they do a good job at strike roles. French jets come with very good quality compared to almost any other fighter jet. Which is why the mirages to this day still keep flying.

 

[Dessert Storm]

Lol. The F18 doesn’t come with shit. Rafale packs in more specs that the hornets. Period.
It’s a well known understanding that India requested ordered the rafale decked out. To the brim with add-on’s. And it’s very clear what the add on is intended to do, so much so that China wanted to steal project management documents to understand it. The add on is fully geared for nuclear delivery. These 36 rafales are fully intended for nuclear deterrence.
No matter how much anyone says here about F16’s and F18’s being better than rafales, turn a deaf ear to them. If you’re taking about the F35s, then yes, that’s up for debate. Any other fighter? -> Case closed. Rafale would win by a mile ahead.

Does the equation change if we talk abt a package of conventional only, comparing say 4 Rafales with 3 SH+1 Growler

 

[Flying Dagger]

That’s all there is. The Growler is a powerful jammer platform that outputs very powerful jamming. It cannot spoof, actively cancel and penetrate air Defence systems like the rafale. It does not have dedicated data processing units built into it do this job. The growler is a glorified brute force jammer. If that was the case, why don’t they send in growlers for every attack mission into contested air space with other fighters. The growler is not meant for penetrating air defenses. It’s meant to protect its carrier fighter escort group by jamming incoming missiles. It’s role is not meant to aid in evading detection. Whereas the rafale is designed to evade detection altogether.

Regarding BVR missiles, if you’re saying 120D is superior then o meteor, that is very very incorrect. Meteor is an active Ramjet/SFDR missiles. The speed,accuracy and effectiveness within its claimed operational range will be far superior just because of the ramjet tech. It will be way more faster in reaching its range limit with variable throttle speed to compensate for evasive maneuvers by the target. This is something that the 120D will not do . The 120D boasts of longer range. That’s all. The effective range found very well be 2/3rds of that. Remember how the long range of the 120C proves ineffective when trying to shoot down a sukhoi last year?


If you’re saying we’re paying extra for the HMDS alone, you’re wrong again. We’re paying for a lot more than that. And everything indicates to the notion that these 36 aircrafts are for nuclear deterrence primarily. All said and done, it’s agreeable that French aircraft are slightly expensive. But they’re effective, comes with no strings, and offer better capability than its counterparts.
Yes, now: Case Closed.

Your whole post is based on useless assumption.

1. Growler is built for electronic warfare , that's attack . Rafale can't hold a candle to that F-35 is what you are trying to portray Rafale is. Growler have 4-5 ALQ-99 ECM jamming pods and ALQ-218 tactical jamming receivers to identify ground-based threats and eliminate them.

AGM-158 JASSM-ER for ground based target range double that of costly Scalp with same warhead.

There you go longer range standoff weapon for ground attack.

Even the communication goes down when Growler attack and will result in blackout moment for the enemy aircraft to do much. And to make sure that F18 can communicate an Interference cancellation system is onboard. So jamming anti jamming both are well taken care of.

Read abt active cancellation first and it is just another way of jamming or spoofing you want to say that F 18 can do.

It's a joke comparing Growler with Rafale.

Rafale is indeed good but with growler in picture forget.

2. Ewww.. read again I said 120 D outrange MICA.

Even Meteor will not be able to take down 120+ km far target and Meteor can be integrated with F-18 too since the radar is American .

AIM 260 the ramjet version is the American nxt gen missile a meteor equivalent.

And I know we didn't paid more for just HMDS point is it comes integrated along with F-18 for the price you pay at less than 80 mn dollar.

and American European Israeli weapons all can be used.

Case sent to Dustbin.

That’s correct. Which is why, when placing a large order, local production is a must. With transfer of tech to reduce spare parts locally.

Correct what ?

You will be buying spare parts from French only at premium cost whether large or small order. The cost advantage America.

Add: and it is not abt India but a general comparison between two.

We all know buying an American plane is a risky business and will take lot of political consideration.

 

[jouy31]

Greek PM confirms deal for 18 Rafale.

Le Premier ministre grec confirme l'intention d'Athènes d'acquérir 18 avions Rafale - Zone Militaire

Alors que la déclaration finale de la réunion des sept pays membres méditerranéen de l'Union européenne a exhorté la Turquie à mettre un terme à ses

www.opex360.com

Dassault Aviation press release

Dassault Aviation: Greece and the Rafale

Greece and the Rafale Saint-Cloud, France, September 12, 2020 – Greece announced today its intention to acquire 18 Rafales to equip its air force. This...

www.globenewswire.com

 

[jouy31]

Greek press:

Mitsotakis announces military spending to counter Turkish aggression | eKathimerini.com

Greece will strengthen its armed forces by buying new weapons systems, Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis announced Saturday.

www.ekathimerini.com

 

[Tactical Frog]

Excellent news ! Shame that Erdogan screwed Turkey’s chance to get F-35, we lost an unique opportunity for closing some discussions here

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Your whole post is based on useless assumption.

1. Growler is built for electronic warfare , that's attack . Rafale can't hold a candle to that F-35 is what you are trying to portray Rafale is. Growler have 4-5 ALQ-99 ECM jamming pods and ALQ-218 tactical jamming receivers to identify ground-based threats and eliminate them.

AGM-158 JASSM-ER for ground based target range double that of costly Scalp with same warhead.

There you go longer range standoff weapon for ground attack.

Even the communication goes down when Growler attack and will result in blackout moment for the enemy aircraft to do much. And to make sure that F18 can communicate an Interference cancellation system is onboard. So jamming anti jamming both are well taken care of.

Read abt active cancellation first and it is just another way of jamming or spoofing you want to say that F 18 can do.

It's a joke comparing Growler with Rafale.

Rafale is indeed good but with growler in picture forget.

2. Ewww.. read again I said 120 D outrange MICA.

Even Meteor will not be able to take down 120+ km far target and Meteor can be integrated with F-18 too since the radar is American .

AIM 260 the ramjet version is the American nxt gen missile a meteor equivalent.

And I know we didn't paid more for just HMDS point is it comes integrated along with F-18 for the price you pay at less than 80 mn dollar.

and American European Israeli weapons all can be used.

Case sent to Dustbin.



Correct what ?

You will be buying spare parts from French only at premium cost whether large or small order. The cost advantage America.

Add: and it is not abt India but a general comparison between two.

We all know buying an American plane is a risky business and will take lot of political consideration.

1. Comparing growler and rafale is stupid. Glad you arrived at that conclusion. They’re not built the same. The growler is dedicated for EW. So stop comparing rafale to growler. Comparing super hornet with the rafale, the rafale carries way more EW systems than the super hornet block 3. Period. FYI: The American ms are not going nowhere to supply any nation with the growler system. That’s something that they would hold close to their hearts. They’re still trying to push us F16’s.

2. You’re talking about future products with the Aim 260.
What does the rafale bring to the table now? The meteor. The best in class bvr weapon out there. Case. Closed. You want to beg the Americans for 260 when it comes out? Be my guest. You ain’t getting shit from them.

3. Correct this. When placing a large order of rafales, you’re building locally. Spare parts comes locally. That’s the agreement. Period.

What do you think? If you buy American, spare parts come cheap? Lol. They can fuck with you like you never expect. They can supply the spare parts, store them in a hangar if they don’t want to supply you, and charge you for it. Lol. Just ask the Pakis the amount of money they’ve shelled out. American weaponry can be much more expensive than French. Just look at the cost of apaches. The amount of money shelled out for them, you can Also argue We could’ve bought a couple of F18’s.

Russian weaponry is the only platforms that come cheap. Stop trying to assert this notion that American weaponry is cost effective.

 

[Need4Speed]

The Rafale is a very good fighter, but India needs far more of them to change the strategic balance of power in Asia. Five Rafales would never decide the outcome of a war, nor come close.

 

[Tumba]

1. Comparing growler and rafale is stupid. Glad you arrived at that conclusion. They’re not built the same. The growler is dedicated for EW. So stop comparing rafale to growler. Comparing super hornet with the rafale, the rafale carries way more EW systems than the super hornet block 3. Period. FYI: The American ms are not going nowhere to supply any nation with the growler system. That’s something that they would hold close to their hearts. They’re still trying to push us F16’s.

2. You’re talking about future products with the Aim 260.
What does the rafale bring to the table now? The meteor. The best in class bvr weapon out there. Case. Closed. You want to beg the Americans for 260 when it comes out? Be my guest. You ain’t getting shit from them.

3. Correct this. When placing a large order of rafales, you’re building locally. Spare parts comes locally. That’s the agreement. Period.

What do you think? If you buy American, spare parts come cheap? Lol. They can fuck with you like you never expect. They can supply the spare parts, store them in a hangar if they don’t want to supply you, and charge you for it. Lol. Just ask the Pakis the amount of money they’ve shelled out. American weaponry can be much more expensive than French. Just look at the cost of apaches. The amount of money shelled out for them, you can Also argue We could’ve bought a couple of F18’s.

Russian weaponry is the only platforms that come cheap. Stop trying to assert this notion that American weaponry is cost effective.

I concur that Growler is whole different beast its the most capable EW Attack aircraft...
I am pretty sure blacking out a contested area like multiple chini S300 clones and chini fighters wont be an issue to it Like we face in Aksai Hind plain areas.

If USA agrees for a squadron of growlers(not degraded but a full EW attack complement) F-18 should be acquired by IAF. 4/5 Squadrons of Super Hornet And 1 squadron of Growler with 3-4 attrition reserves.

 

[Rohan Naik]

 

[Flying Dagger]

1. Comparing growler and rafale is stupid. Glad you arrived at that conclusion. They’re not built the same. The growler is dedicated for EW. So stop comparing rafale to growler. Comparing super hornet with the rafale, the rafale carries way more EW systems than the super hornet block 3. Period. FYI: The American ms are not going nowhere to supply any nation with the growler system. That’s something that they would hold close to their hearts. They’re still trying to push us F16’s.

2. You’re talking about future products with the Aim 260.
What does the rafale bring to the table now? The meteor. The best in class bvr weapon out there. Case. Closed. You want to beg the Americans for 260 when it comes out? Be my guest. You ain’t getting shit from them.

3. Correct this. When placing a large order of rafales, you’re building locally. Spare parts comes locally. That’s the agreement. Period.

What do you think? If you buy American, spare parts come cheap? Lol. They can fuck with you like you never expect. They can supply the spare parts, store them in a hangar if they don’t want to supply you, and charge you for it. Lol. Just ask the Pakis the amount of money they’ve shelled out. American weaponry can be much more expensive than French. Just look at the cost of apaches. The amount of money shelled out for them, you can Also argue We could’ve bought a couple of F18’s.

Russian weaponry is the only platforms that come cheap. Stop trying to assert this notion that American weaponry is cost effective.

Again non sense rambling with assumption.

Growler >> Rafale Electronic Warfare

That's what i said clearly rest keep doing your nursery kg class drama.

Growler is available for export now.

Beg what ? You pay and you get. Pakistan got all of that for free and then goes on to kill American soldiers using Taliban.

Meteor isn't Brahmastra and you can integrate them with F-18s too. But with AIM 260 you will be able to get same or bwtter capability at less cost in future. There isn't a case to even start.

How much large order you are talking about ? Spare parts support is the cash cow of a fighter jet deal plus all we will be doing is screw driving. Forget even Russia after giving in and out of Sukhoi made sure we have to buy spare parts from them.

Even bon agrees French product and spare parts are expensive due to small scale production in comparison to america and only French built spare parts.

And if you are fearing American sanction than even French will follow that. They rolled over mistral deal with Russia once sanction were placed. They are allies. It's just there will be some delay between if you are planning to have an imported airforce for another 3-4 decades

Apache provide what we pay for. It's the infighting for control in between army and airforce which resulted in over 2500+ crore extra . Even Gen Rawat pointed it out that we need to end this duplication and save cost there. But what's done is done.

A mere comparison of upgrade package and cost of Mig UPG 15 mn+ ( 2010) Mirage 2k - 45 mn +(2011) and F-16 ( Taiwan) Block V upgrade. (2020) gives ample idea who stands where.

Apart from that you can continue to write generic swiping statements blah blah blah....

Case trashed

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Again non sense rambling with assumption.

Growler >> Rafale Electronic Warfare

That's what i said clearly rest keep doing your nursery kg class drama.

Growler is available for export now.

Beg what ? You pay and you get. Pakistan got all of that for free and then goes on to kill American soldiers using Taliban.

Meteor isn't Brahmastra and you can integrate them with F-18s too. But with AIM 260 you will be able to get same or bwtter capability at less cost in future. There isn't a case to even start.

How much large order you are talking about ? Spare parts support is the cash cow of a fighter jet deal plus all we will be doing is screw driving. Forget even Russia after giving in and out of Sukhoi made sure we have to buy spare parts from them.

Even bon agrees French product and spare parts are expensive due to small scale production in comparison to america and only French built spare parts.

And if you are fearing American sanction than even French will follow that. They rolled over mistral deal with Russia once sanction were placed. They are allies. It's just there will be some delay between if you are planning to have an imported airforce for another 3-4 decades

Apache provide what we pay for. It's the infighting for control in between army and airforce which resulted in over 2500+ crore extra . Even Gen Rawat pointed it out that we need to end this duplication and save cost there. But what's done is done.

A mere comparison of upgrade package and cost of Mig UPG 15 mn+ ( 2010) Mirage 2k - 45 mn +(2011) and F-16 ( Taiwan) Block V upgrade. (2020) gives ample idea who stands where.

Apart from that you can continue to write generic swiping statements blah blah blah....

Case trashed

Spin stuff and write stuff any way you want lol. None of the points you said above has any value at present.

Aim260 will be cheaper it seems. As if the Americans are going to gift wrap it to you. How the fuck do you arrive at the conclusion that it will be cheaper? Kuch bhi. Facts based discussions are dead these days. Logic and common sense is out of the window when it comes to famboy talk. There’s not even a prototype of 260. MBDA is far far ahead of Raytheon/LM on sfdr tech. Your statement is like saying, I will wait for rail gun tech Even if takes 2 decades to come as it’s better than hypersonic systems.

you pay for what you get? So if you’re willing to pay for a B2 bomber, you think you’ll get it? Do you write stuff to Just throw something out there or do you think before you write? The Americans don’t share advanced tech like that even to the friendliest of nations. Most definitely not their top of the line missile systems. Which is why i said: Have a begging Bowl ready, if you’re living in the hopes of Americans giving you 260’s.

F18s are the best thing in this world. Happy? In fact, the F18 growlers are way better than F35’s? Theek hai? Who the fuck would compare a dedicated ew platform to a fighter? Are you willing to compare the F35 with the B2? That’s the same comparison you’re making.
Get this through your head. Growlers aren’t for sale. And no. Growler EW is not the greatest. If you want to throw generic blanket statements like that, I’m done with this discussion. EW is a wide area field with different systems/capabilities.
If you can, with some level of mature information, list out the details/technicals why the growler is better than the rafale. I would love to see that.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Spin stuff and write stuff any way you want lol. None of the points you said above has any value at present.

Aim260 will be cheaper it seems. As if the Americans are going to gift wrap it to you. How the fuck do you arrive at the conclusion that it will be cheaper? Kuch bhi. Facts based discussions are dead these days. Logic and common sense is out of the window when it comes to famboy talk. There’s not even a prototype of 260. MBDA is far far ahead of Raytheon/LM on sfdr tech. Your statement is like saying, I will wait for rail gun tech Even if takes 2 decades to come as it’s better than hypersonic systems.

you pay for what you get? So if you’re willing to pay for a B2 bomber, you think you’ll get it? Do you write stuff to Just throw something out there or do you think before you write? The Americans don’t share advanced tech like that even to the friendliest of nations. Most definitely not their top of the line missile systems. Which is why i said: Have a begging Bowl ready, if you’re living in the hopes of Americans giving you 260’s.

F18s are the best thing in this world. Happy? In fact, the F18 growlers are way better than F35’s? Theek hai? Who the fuck would compare a dedicated ew platform to a fighter? Are you willing to compare the F35 with the B2? That’s the same comparison you’re making.
Get this through your head. Growlers aren’t for sale. And no. Growler EW is not the greatest. If you want to throw generic blanket statements like that, I’m done with this discussion. EW is a wide area field with different systems/capabilities.
If you can, with some level of mature information, list out the details/technicals why the growler is better than the rafale. I would love to see that.

It is you who have been swiping dumb statement and run away with it.

1. No one said I am going to wait for AIM 260
You assumed

Meteor can be integrated with an American radar /F-18

2. No one said it will definitely be cheaper but will cheaper there is always perhaps there If you can't comprehend, not my problem.

And why do I assume that simply because a MICA cost 2+ mn dollar while AIM120 D is around 1.1+ -1.5 mn dollars.

Bringing B 2 bomber is logic...



Growlers aren't for sale ?

But it was a general comparison even in that case

AERO INDIA: Boeing reveals plans for 'Growler Lite'

Boeing plans to market an EA-18G "Growler Lite" tailored for an "electronic awareness" role rather than attack. The manufacturer believes that offering...

www.flightglobal.com

Ok sarvagyani purush I won't ask who the fuck told you that?

You definitely know more than Boeing.

 

[BON PLAN]

F-18 Superhornet comes with all the bang you can get for around 75 mn dollar and Rafale cost 35% more in direct acquisition + add on cost like HMD which you get with F18 . There is an engine upgrade on offer too for GE 414 apart from sensors of Growler to make it compete with new gen jet.
Operational and Life time cost is cheaper. There is nothing to debate on that case closed.

Win by mile ahead is too ambitious air battles doesn't go like that. I will give them neck to neck though with cost advantage F18.

For the price, already discussed. You're wrong.
About the perf :
Rafale, 10Tons fighter, with 15T thrust can carry 9.5T load and can supercruise.
SH18, 13Tons fighter, with 19.5T thrust can only carry 8T load and can't supercruise.

SH18, as F35, are under powered because badly shaped. Not the Dassault fighters case, for decades.

 

[Immanuel]

If you were honnest (but we all know it's not the case), you would have added to the Rafale Backlog : the last tranche for France (30 at least).
Some more for India.
Probably some more for Egypt.
Qatar has 36 in option.
Greece to become the 4th export customer
and next probably Switzerland

F16 : No firm order inked for Morocco (just a LOI). Same for Bahrein if I remember well.

I just remember you that USA is 7th time bigger than France....

A backlog means you need firm orders: if potential F-16 clients have to be counted, F-16 has a potential for at least another 150 on top of the confirmed 128. As said, chances that the F-16 will continue to outsell the Rafale well past 2025 is very high.

Wrong:

Bahrain: 16 ordered in 2017

Bahrain Signs $3.8 Billion Deal for 16 Upgraded F-16 Aircraft

www.bahraindefence.com

Morocco: 24 ordered

Morocco to receive first batch of F-16V in 2021

Morocco will become in 2021 the first country in Africa to use the F16 Viper fighter jets, a well-informed local news outlet reported. An order has been placed by Morocco’s Royal Air Force to acqui…

www.globaldefensecorp.com

Qatar potential order of 36, let's say when they have the money.

India potential order, probably when we have the political will, money etc.

Egypt: Again when they have the money

Greece: has no money, I am sure they'll accept donations with open arms

Switzerland dumped Rafale once already, chances against the SH Block 3 or F-35 are slimmer still.

Apart from some repeat orders from a couple of existing countries, Rafale's future looks worse than the Eurofighter's.

 

[BON PLAN]

The Rafale is a very good fighter, but India needs far more of them to change the strategic balance of power in Asia. Five Rafales would never decide the outcome of a war, nor come close.

At least 36 more are in the pipe. India invested too much to stand at 36.
If DA plays well, it will be far more.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale is indeed good but with growler in picture forget.

Rafale is able to self defense thanks to Spectra, when US fighters, in the US doctrine, need dedicated electronic jammers planes. It's not new (Prowlers...).
See Australia : they need to purchase Growlers. So very cost effective.

 

[BON PLAN]

Growler >> Rafale Electronic Warfare

In pure power, YES.
But it is as using a truck to puch a nail.

Growler can help a group of fighters to enter in a defended space.
Rafale can't. It made the samejob, for itself, with less power. ie smarter, stealthier.

 

[BON PLAN]

Switzerland dumped Rafale once already, chances against the SH Block 3 or F-35 are slimmer still.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale's future looks worse than the Eurofighter's.

That definitively proves you are TOTALLY UNAWARE of the subject.