Know Your 'Rafale'

[Immanuel]

F-16 Order backlog: confirmed order 128 (None delivered yet) to be built over 10 years. Not Including Indonesia which is again a 2 SQD order that will come soon.
Taiwan: 66
Morocco: 24
Bulgaria: 8
Slovakia: 14
Bahrain: 16

Rafale order backlog: 66
India: 26 (10 already delivered)
Qatar: 12 (24 others delivered)
French AF: 28 (some delivered)
Greece?: May be 10

Facts don't care about your Soy Boy feelings. Rafale active order backlog is still half that of the F-16.
Let's hope India throws Dassault a bone since no one else really is.

Boy it must suck to have a 60-70's Teen still beating Mirage and Rafale sales combined.

I remember well the Dassault Chutiya giri in Belgium too, essentially dumped very fast for the F-35. Continue the chutiyagiri, no body cares about Dassault apart from alms coming from India. You can expect same outcome in Finland, Swiss. Ya'll got kicked from Canada too where you had some chances due to potential French influence (talk about an epic dump).

 

[omaebakabaka]

Not worse 0.87 F-35 for now in comparison to 0.98 Rafale.

But there is an engine upgrade to sort it out which will enhance the thrust and improve fuel efficiency too. It isn't that essential either for now since it relies on stealth and BVR capability. The problem that you encounter on articles are with B and C version anyway not A meant for Airforce. It is performing efficiently with all airforces who received it.

Personally I prefer sleek and manueverable jets with very high thrust like Su 57 and Mig 29/35 my favourite ones. But the tech advantage F 35 have over any other jet in business is immense.

Same comment regarding upgrades applies to Rafale and it would have even more options considering twin engines....single engines pretty much have seen most improvements that can be made technically/economically. Unless I am wrong F-35A does not have its t/w any better looking at Australian F-35A (correct me if I am wrong)...40000/70000(max take off weight).....I need some actual combat facts to beleive the BVR claims at max ranges in a statistical sense. Even one off hit does not really prove, max ranges come with a narrow envelope.

I like F-35A as it is truly 5th gen in terms of airframe design and all other things, it just may not suit Indian requirements as we do not match US scale in fighting battles their way where it fits very nicely....they win 40% of the battle just based on being the USA name brand (deterrent). If we had open checkbook then I see it as a definite plus otherwise Rafale at the moment offers more in terms of mission profiles.

SU-57 needs to wait till the IZD 30 engine.....5th gen with 4th gen engine does not sit well with me. Mig29/35 is non starter for me unless we get full bottom up tech incl engines and metallurgy.

 

[omaebakabaka]

F-16 Order backlog: confirmed order 128 (None delivered yet) to be built over 10 years. Not Including Indonesia which is again a 2 SQD order that will come soon.
Taiwan: 66
Morocco: 24
Bulgaria: 8
Slovakia: 14
Bahrain: 16

Rafale order backlog: 66
India: 26 (10 already delivered)
Qatar: 12 (24 others delivered)
French AF: 28 (some delivered)
Greece?: May be 10

Facts don't care about your Soy Boy feelings. Rafale active order backlog is still half that of the F-16.
Let's hope India throws Dassault a bone since no one else really is.

Boy it must suck to have a 60-70's Teen still beating Mirage and Rafale sales combined.

I remember well the Dassault Chutiya giri in Belgium too, essentially dumped very fast for the F-35. Continue the chutiyagiri, no body cares about Dassault apart from alms coming from India. You can expect same outcome in Finland, Swiss. Ya'll got kicked from Canada too where you had some chances due to potential French influence (talk about an epic dump).

F-16s are more than sufficient for the countries you listed in their size and threats.

 

[omaebakabaka]

You're conflating a 1.5 trillion program cost of 55 year life span VS flyaway costs. Don't be silly. Mission profile is closely related to weapons it can deploy and the F-35 can already deploy a wider variety of weapons than the Rafale. (Aim-9X, ASRAAM, Aim-120C/D, Python-5/Derby-ER, Griffin Family, Spice Family, Paveway Family, JDAM Family, JSOW Family, SDB and CBU-105SFW.

With Block 4 around 20021-2024: It will be Meteor, SDB-2, NSM, HARM-ER, SPEAR, JASSM will also be integrated.

The F-35 is already replacing old F-16s, USMC F-18s, again don't be silly. There is no sign of a cut in the program, talks don't mean jack. LM and other US companies have deep pockets to line up all the senators and congress people they need.

US didn't make a mistake with the F-35, it is expensive but it will be on sale and in production for another 40 years much like the F-16 which still has a higher order book than Rafale. F-16 Block 70s will be still selling in next decade unlike the Rafale which will probably run out of orders if India doesn't buy more.

It is official consensus and not my making up facts about F-35, you can keep on candy coating this based on future...this plane was first flown in 2006 and the only recorded combat (actually contested) was Israel in 2018 using it in some combat where ofcourse there is no one else contesting that airspace.....for a long time they could not fly in night or bad weather either I think till 2013.....I would expect a 5th gen plane used to show its capabilities in every chance they get especially something meant to replace f-16/15/18.....f-15EX kinda proves that too. Anyone can claim, DRDO claims lot of things as indigenous and pakistan and iran claim even ridiculous things....on paper!

 

[BON PLAN]

F-16 Order backlog: confirmed order 128 (None delivered yet) to be built over 10 years. Not Including Indonesia which is again a 2 SQD order that will come soon.
Taiwan: 66
Morocco: 24
Bulgaria: 8
Slovakia: 14
Bahrain: 16

Rafale order backlog: 66
India: 26 (10 already delivered)
Qatar: 12 (24 others delivered)
French AF: 28 (some delivered)
Greece?: May be 10

Facts don't care about your Soy Boy feelings. Rafale active order backlog is still half that of the F-16.
Let's hope India throws Dassault a bone since no one else really is.

Boy it must suck to have a 60-70's Teen still beating Mirage and Rafale sales combined.

I remember well the Dassault Chutiya giri in Belgium too, essentially dumped very fast for the F-35. Continue the chutiyagiri, no body cares about Dassault apart from alms coming from India. You can expect same outcome in Finland, Swiss. Ya'll got kicked from Canada too where you had some chances due to potential French influence (talk about an epic dump).

If you were honnest (but we all know it's not the case), you would have added to the Rafale Backlog : the last tranche for France (30 at least).
Some more for India.
Probably some more for Egypt.
Qatar has 36 in option.
Greece to become the 4th export customer
and next probably Switzerland

F16 : No firm order inked for Morocco (just a LOI). Same for Bahrein if I remember well.

I just remember you that USA is 7th time bigger than France....

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Rafale at LAC.

 

[Flying Dagger]

The Indian price includes :
50% offset ! so you can immediatly divide by 1.5 the price
The additional specs requested by India (something the US don't want to do).

The additional spec requested by India something that perhaps F-18 already comes with.

And who told you they don't want to do Anything ?

And so what If It includes offset ?

You are saying from 79 mn dollar that you said is price of Rafale we are charged 30 mn more for the offset ?

That offset also have Dassault as 50% partner with Reliance.

 

[omaebakabaka]

The additional spec requested by India something that perhaps F-18 already comes with.

And who told you they don't want to do Anything ?

And so what If It includes offset ?

You are saying from 79 mn dollar that you said is price of Rafale we are charged 30 mn more for the offset ?

That offset also have Dassault as 50% partner with Reliance.

Sorry is this regarding F-18 land vs Rafale or carrier borne?

 

[Flying Dagger]

Sorry is this regarding F-18 land vs Rafale or carrier borne?

In general bro but yes. F-18 cost very less and operational and lifetime cost is very low.

 

[fire starter]

 

[omaebakabaka]

In general bro but yes. F-18 cost very less and operational and lifetime cost is very low.

Isn't F-18 airframe rated 6000 hours vs Rafale 10000? In reality carrier borned F-18 is 3k but F-18 is proven more than enough for naval operations and has some pretty concrete achievements.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Same comment regarding upgrades applies to Rafale and it would have even more options considering twin engines....single engines pretty much have seen most improvements that can be made technically/economically. Unless I am wrong F-35A does not have its t/w any better looking at Australian F-35A (correct me if I am wrong)...40000/70000(max take off weight).....I need some actual combat facts to beleive the BVR claims at max ranges in a statistical sense. Even one off hit does not really prove, max ranges come with a narrow envelope.

I like F-35A as it is truly 5th gen in terms of airframe design and all other things, it just may not suit Indian requirements as we do not match US scale in fighting battles their way where it fits very nicely....they win 40% of the battle just based on being the USA name brand (deterrent). If we had open checkbook then I see it as a definite plus otherwise Rafale at the moment offers more in terms of mission profiles.

SU-57 needs to wait till the IZD 30 engine.....5th gen with 4th gen engine does not sit well with me. Mig29/35 is non starter for me unless we get full bottom up tech incl engines and metallurgy.

Yes But for a Rafale upgrade you have to pay heavily just like Mirage upgrade which costed 45 mn+ while a Mig costed 15 mn+ which includes engine change.

Anyway What does it matter if Rafale will have more thrust or not ? Aren't we discussing if F-35 is good enough or not?

1. The engine upgrade planned not just Inc thrust but provide fuel efficiency too.

2. In case America really felt the need that they need more thrust they'll put more money and do it. This is one thing you need not worry much abt an American product. Just check on F-16 dev graph.

More important it's not just a fighter jet but an electronic warfare machine with stealth made for strike role. It can easily take out Chinese position. The advantage you get with first attack using this is immense.

While the vanilla F-35 A cost 79 mn dollar a Rafale costed 109 mn dollar to us. And then we paid extra for systems that already comes with F-35 A even more.

So those who have access and are ally have actually a pretty good deal.

Su 57 will take time not just engine. We know in and out abt Mig 29/35. You can be assured there will be full tot if we go for it but we won't as we already have it's big brother Su and Tejas is in production.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Isn't F-18 airframe rated 6000 hours vs Rafale 10000? In reality carrier borned F-18 is 3k but F-18 is proven more than enough for naval operations and has some pretty concrete achievements.

Nope 6000 was life of earliest model of F-18 raised to 8000 the E/F have 10,000 for navy.

Rafale I thought had 5000-6000 but Bon said they have managed to get 7000 around.

F-16/21 have 8000+ can be raised 12000 hrs +

F-15 E 8000-12000 original can be increased upto 24000 hrs+

 

[omaebakabaka]

Yes But for a Rafale upgrade you have to pay heavily just like Mirage upgrade which costed 45 mn+ while a Mig costed 15 mn+ which includes engine change.

Anyway What does it matter if Rafale will have more thrust or not ? Aren't we discussing if F-35 is good enough or not?

1. The engine upgrade planned not just Inc thrust but provide fuel efficiency too.

2. In case America really felt the need that they need more thrust they'll put more money and do it. This is one thing you need not worry much abt an American product. Just check on F-16 dev graph.

More important it's not just a fighter jet but an electronic warfare machine with stealth made for strike role. It can easily take out Chinese position. The advantage you get with first attack using this is immense.

While the vanilla F-35 A cost 79 mn dollar a Rafale costed 109 mn dollar to us. And then we paid extra for systems that already comes with F-35 A even more.

So those who have access and are ally have actually a pretty good deal.

Su 57 will take time not just engine. We know in and out abt Mig 29/35. You can be assured there will be full tot if we go for it but we won't as we already have it's big brother Su and Tejas is in production.

I like this back and forth just for the fun.....if anyone has objection then we can stop but thats the intention of this thread Rafale....

This thread is about Rafale, so ofcourse it matters. Thrust is one of the most important quality for a fighter apart from few other things. Try driving a car that puts out good hp and torque in usable rpm range vs one that does not. It is also about money, so one would want to be in a section on a graph that makes it a viable tool in most expected scenarios. Rafale fits that better at the moment in Medium fighters than any other. F-35 excels as a sniper again on paper, we are yet to see some results in actual battles but its not a stetch to believe it. Medium weight with single engine is not a good design decision, even americans will find it hard to improve on it as weight followed by fuel consumption will become a factor in enhancing aircrafts capabilities in the future. In other words it constrains for no good reason.

As for mig's its past its time....no one is buying other than as a last choice. Even VKS did not buy mig-35's. It has been 15 years and we still do not have a mig 35 with AESA.....it was supposed to replace su-27's but VKS is doing that with Su-30 SM1/2 and SU-35.

F-35 will certainly be good for IAF if we have an open check book in addition to Rafale.

Another thing, F-16 started out around 6k empty and ended up almost 10k with Block E, ofcourse engine also got enhanced. It is a good plane due to t/w and was an example of light weight done very well.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Nope 6000 was life of earliest model of F-18 raised to 8000 the E/F have 10,000 for navy.

Rafale I thought had 5000-6000 but Bon said they have managed to get 7000 around.

F-16/21 have 8000+ can be raised 12000 hrs +

F-15 E 8000-12000 original can be increased upto 24000 hrs+

Are these in reality or on paper? Those numbers are a dream even for land ones and naval ones take a lot more beating.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Are these in reality or on paper? Those numbers are a dream even for land ones and naval ones take a lot more beating.

They are real dude American plane have longer airframe life, low maintenance ( not 5th gen) followed by European jet.

One of the reason Iran is able to fly F-14 tomcat even now.

 

[shade]

Burger offensive platforms are out of the question unless we become a star spangled vassal, complete with 1-2 big US bases.
idk why this F-18 argument is still on
It's literally Rooski, Frenchie or roll your own
roll your own will always be a meme because employment-as-a-dole incompetent PSUs like DRDO and the Import lobby made up of brass, babus and politicians that just can't do without kickbacks.

 

[omaebakabaka]

They are real dude American plane have longer airframe life, low maintenance ( not 5th gen) followed by European jet.

One of the reason Iran is able to fly F-14 tomcat even now.

I think I know what you are talking about.....USAF changed the way they rate the frames because of change in flying habits like taking it to max, g-forces e.t.c They did a study and found that out but also each new upgrade enhanced 10 to 20% life in general. I remember reading an article about it. Most european and US fighters range from 6k to 10k before extended maintenance to increase the life. You can imagine fine prints that come with it....

 

[LDev]

Do you have some source ?

Presumably these were F-35s. If they were F-15s or F-16s of the Israeli Air Force, the S-300 ineffectiveness is even greater. But in this case it is the Syrians who have confirmed at least 9 air raids in a 3 month period

[BEGIN QUOTE]Israeli warplanes fired missiles on suburbs of the northern city of Aleppo early Friday, Syrian state media said, amid increased airstrikes on Syria in recent weeks. There were no immediate reports of casualties.
On August 31, an attack targeted the southern suburbs of the capital Damascus killing two soldiers and wounding seven.
Israel rarely comments on such reports, but is believed to have carried out scores of raids targeting Iran’s military presence in Syria. In the past three months alone, Syria has accused Israel of carrying out at least nine air raids on its territory.[END QUOTE]

Alleged overflight by Israeli F-35s over Teheran:

[BEGIN QUOTE]Yet the most direct effects of the F-35 were still to come. In July 2018, a Kuwaiti newspaper reported that Israel had flown a test mission of at least three F-35 jets to Tehran and back from an airbase near Tel Aviv. While never confirmed publicly, a good number of military and political leaders in the region believed and still believe the story. The long-rumored threat the F-35 posed to Iran now seemed like a reality.

Earlier this month, reports in the same Kuwaiti newspaper said that Iran’s military leadership panicked enough over the purported stealth mission that it kept news of it from reaching Iran’s Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei.

But when Khamenei found out about the mission, he reportedly moved to fire not only Iran’s air force chief but also the long-serving and powerful commander of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps. That’s major impact without even firing a shot.[END QUOTE]


New Round of Israeli airstrikes hit Aleppo

The F-35 has already freaked out Iran and changed everything in the Middle East

 

[omaebakabaka]

Presumably these were F-35s. If they were F-15s or F-16s of the Israeli Air Force, the S-300 ineffectiveness is even greater. But in this case it is the Syrians who have confirmed at least 9 air raids in a 3 month period

[BEGIN QUOTE]Israeli warplanes fired missiles on suburbs of the northern city of Aleppo early Friday, Syrian state media said, amid increased airstrikes on Syria in recent weeks. There were no immediate reports of casualties.
On August 31, an attack targeted the southern suburbs of the capital Damascus killing two soldiers and wounding seven.
Israel rarely comments on such reports, but is believed to have carried out scores of raids targeting Iran’s military presence in Syria. In the past three months alone, Syria has accused Israel of carrying out at least nine air raids on its territory.[END QUOTE]

Alleged overflight by Israeli F-35s over Teheran:

[BEGIN QUOTE]Yet the most direct effects of the F-35 were still to come. In July 2018, a Kuwaiti newspaper reported that Israel had flown a test mission of at least three F-35 jets to Tehran and back from an airbase near Tel Aviv. While never confirmed publicly, a good number of military and political leaders in the region believed and still believe the story. The long-rumored threat the F-35 posed to Iran now seemed like a reality.

Earlier this month, reports in the same Kuwaiti newspaper said that Iran’s military leadership panicked enough over the purported stealth mission that it kept news of it from reaching Iran’s Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei.

But when Khamenei found out about the mission, he reportedly moved to fire not only Iran’s air force chief but also the long-serving and powerful commander of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps. That’s major impact without even firing a shot.[END QUOTE]


New Round of Israeli airstrikes hit Aleppo

The F-35 has already freaked out Iran and changed everything in the Middle East

Unlikely but not impossible.....most israeli airstrikes now occur from Lebanon hiding behind mountains or under the cover of USAF since the F-15 was hit my s-200. Just think about it why would the Israel do that with Russian EW and Radars tracking the entire area.....they did a conduct very suspicious hits on iraqi militia that US did not acknowledge as their own.