Know Your 'Rafale'

[LDev]

Unlikely but not impossible.....most israeli airstrikes now occur from Lebanon hiding behind mountains or under the cover of USAF since the F-15 was hit my s-200. Just think about it why would the Israel do that with Russian EW and Radars tracking the entire area.....they did a conduct very suspicious hits on iraqi militia that US did not acknowledge as their own.

Check the map. Where is Aleppo and where is Lebanon.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Check the map. Where is Aleppo and where is Lebanon.

It is not that far from North Lebanon depends on where in Aleppo, and I also said under the cover of USAF. So out all 5th gen planes, not one strike is acknowledged to prove its claims. I am sorry but these are not SR-71 or U-2 flights to keep it classified for ever especially selling it to other countries. A bit short on reliable evidence, don't you agree?

 

[BON PLAN]

In general bro but yes. F-18 cost very less and operational and lifetime cost is very low.

LOL. very low...

A 13T fighter than can only carry a 8T load versus a 10T fighter than can carry 9.5T load. Sur not in the same league.

 

[BON PLAN]

Nope 6000 was life of earliest model of F-18 raised to 8000 the E/F have 10,000 for navy.

Rafale I thought had 5000-6000 but Bon said they have managed to get 7000 around.

F-16/21 have 8000+ can be raised 12000 hrs +

F-15 E 8000-12000 original can be increased upto 24000 hrs+

As the M2000 life was increased, the Rafale life will also be increased.

 

[BON PLAN]

You are saying from 79 mn dollar that you said is price of Rafale we are charged 30 mn more for the offset ?

That offset also have Dassault as 50% partner with Reliance.

Who asked for Offset? not France. Not Dassault. Offset is just an increase in the purchase price AND a kind of ToT.

 

[BON PLAN]

Are these in reality or on paper? Those numbers are a dream even for land ones and naval ones take a lot more beating.

Reality. It is not just the calculated life, but the result of a frame tortured on a bench to simulate a full life without problem.
The fly datas are managed by all the air force of the world.
Once the opened life over, the plane is removed from operations. Maybe not in some third world country....

 

[BON PLAN]

They are real dude American plane have longer airframe life, low maintenance ( not 5th gen) followed by European jet.

False.
A M2000 requires less people and less time for maintenance. But the spares parts cost far more (because all produced in France, and because lower quantity).

 

[omaebakabaka]

Reality. It is not just the calculated life, but the result of a frame tortured on a bench to simulate a full life without problem.
The fly datas are managed by all the air force of the world.
Once the opened life over, the plane is removed from operations. Maybe not in some third world country....

What I read is that most of the USAF/west are flying ground support sorties which does not put as much stress on airframes vs dog fights or air battles and therefore seeing better than expected performance. Real world numbers are a bit different from simulated tests pretty much for everything from battery life to tires. But I do agree airframes are reaching pretty decent numbers....

 

[Sridhar_TN]

The additional spec requested by India something that perhaps F-18 already comes with.

And who told you they don't want to do Anything ?

And so what If It includes offset ?

You are saying from 79 mn dollar that you said is price of Rafale we are charged 30 mn more for the offset ?

That offset also have Dassault as 50% partner with Reliance.

Lol. The F18 doesn’t come with shit. Rafale packs in more specs that the hornets. Period.
It’s a well known understanding that India requested ordered the rafale decked out. To the brim with add-on’s. And it’s very clear what the add on is intended to do, so much so that China wanted to steal project management documents to understand it. The add on is fully geared for nuclear delivery. These 36 rafales are fully intended for nuclear deterrence.
No matter how much anyone says here about F16’s and F18’s being better than rafales, turn a deaf ear to them. If you’re taking about the F35s, then yes, that’s up for debate. Any other fighter? -> Case closed. Rafale would win by a mile ahead.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

They are real dude American plane have longer airframe life, low maintenance ( not 5th gen) followed by European jet.

One of the reason Iran is able to fly F-14 tomcat even now.

Dassault Mirages are still flying. So much so, that the pakis are still flying 1960’s Mirage V’s.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Dassault Mirages are still flying. So much so, that the pakis are still flying 1960’s Mirage V’s.

They are replacing them and don't fly them much either just A few of them are active and kept for Indian specific theatre. They are like the old Mig 29 frame we got from Russia lying unused.

Anyway let's not stray American fighter jet airframe have longer life in general and if relationship doesn't sour with USA then a very long term upgrade package and support.

 

[Flying Dagger]

F-18 Superhornet comes with all the bang you can get for around 75 mn dollar and Rafale cost 35% more in direct acquisition + add on cost like HMD which you get with F18 . There is an engine upgrade on offer too for GE 414 apart from sensors of Growler to make it compete with new gen jet.
Operational and Life time cost is cheaper. There is nothing to debate on that case closed.

Win by mile ahead is too ambitious air battles doesn't go like that. I will give them neck to neck though with cost advantage F18.

Lol. The F18 doesn’t come with shit. Rafale packs in more specs that the hornets. Period.
It’s a well known understanding that India requested ordered the rafale decked out. To the brim with add-on’s. And it’s very clear what the add on is intended to do, so much so that China wanted to steal project management documents to understand it. The add on is fully geared for nuclear delivery. These 36 rafales are fully intended for nuclear deterrence.
No matter how much anyone says here about F16’s and F18’s being better than rafales, turn a deaf ear to them. If you’re taking about the F35s, then yes, that’s up for debate. Any other fighter? -> Case closed. Rafale would win by a mile ahead.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

They are replacing them and don't fly them much either just A few of them are active and kept for Indian specific theatre. They are like the old Mig 29 frame we got from Russia lying unused.

Anyway let's not stray American fighter jet airframe have longer life in general and if relationship doesn't sour with USA then a very long term upgrade package and support.

They’re not replacing them. They’re placing more orders for them.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

F-18 Superhornet comes with all the bang you can get for around 75 mn dollar and Rafale cost 35% more in direct acquisition + add on cost like HMD which you get with F18 . There is an engine upgrade on offer too for GE 414 apart from sensors of Growler to make it compete with new gen jet.
Operational and Life time cost is cheaper. There is nothing to debate on that case closed.

Win by mile ahead is too ambitious air battles doesn't go like that. I will give them neck to neck though with cost advantage F18.

Define ‘all the bang’ in comparison to rafale. What are they?

Sensors of growler? They don’t have the space nor form factor to fit growler level jammers on board. They’re primarily a deck based fighter and will remain that way.

The rafales are known for one thing more than anything else: Electronic Warfare, electronic espionage. They are designed for this purpose making them a true 4.5 gen aircraft.

In an air battle, rafale VS hornet: I would give the rafale a win both in bvr and short range.
BVR: because of missiles and various spoofing mechanisms.
Short range: The rafale is waaaaaay more maneuverable than the hornet. In fact, the mirage, F16, gripen are all way more maneuverable than the hornet. No fault of the hornet in its own. It wasn’t designed for aerial combat. It’s a deck based fighter.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Define ‘all the bang’ in comparison to rafale. What are they?

Sensors of growler? They don’t have the space nor form factor to fit growler level jammers on board. They’re primarily a deck based fighter and will remain that way.

The rafales are known for one thing more than anything else: Electronic Warfare, electronic espionage. They are designed for this purpose making them a true 4.5 gen aircraft.

In an air battle, rafale VS hornet: I would give the rafale a win both in bvr and short range.
BVR: because of missiles and various spoofing mechanisms.
Short range: The rafale is waaaaaay more maneuverable than the hornet. In fact, the mirage, F16, gripen are all way more maneuverable than the hornet. No fault of the hornet in its own. It wasn’t designed for aerial combat. It’s a deck based fighter.

Minus jammers other sensors can be in. If you want electronic warfare then it is Growler that was built for it Rafale won't stand much in front of the Jammers deployed by it.

BVR : the AESA radar are comparable as far as missiles are concerned AMRAAM 120 D already outrange MICA and cost less. Meteor can be integrated with F-18 too though USA has its own AIM 260 program going on.

I'll give a very slight advantage to it for double the price.

F-18 comes with American laser targeting system and HMD which Rafale don't. Though Qatar is getting (&American laser targeting system) Israeli HMDS just like India.

Without that in a WVR Advantage F-18 . ( And we had to pay extra for Israeli HMDS one of the reason the cost of Rafale rose from 109 mn dollar to 160-170 mn dollar )

Yes Rafale is more agile and have better thrust to weight ratio but F-18 can get Improved F 414 with around 20 kn Inc in wet thrust .

And all this is under 80 mn dollar half the price we are paying for Rafale. That's why Rafale isn't being selected by many countries despite performing better.

Case closed.

 

[Flying Dagger]

They’re not replacing them. They’re placing more orders for them.

Order from whom ?

They are buying older one to cannibalize for spare parts to keep the one with airframe life left to use operational. French jet means spare parts will come from France at premium cost.

 

[Trololo]

Simply speaking, the Indian armed forces will not buy frontline combat platforms from the US because there is still a deep seated worry about sanctions. All purchases from the US usually have equivalent Russian/ European replacements:

1. C-17: Latest Gen IL-76
2. Apache: Latest MI-28N, Souped up LCH
3. C130: Antonov AN-70/ A400M/ IL-276
4. P8: No equivalent for the platform, but possible to strap Indian/ Russian systems on old Il-38 airframes or C-295 or Sukhoi Superjet type aircraft.
5. INS Jalashwa: White elephant.
6. M777: Kalyani ULH
7. Excalibur: DRDO under development shells

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Minus jammers other sensors can be in. If you want electronic warfare then it is Growler that was built for it Rafale won't stand much in front of the Jammers deployed by it.

BVR : the AESA radar are comparable as far as missiles are concerned AMRAAM 120 D already outrange MICA and cost less. Meteor can be integrated with F-18 too though USA has its own AIM 260 program going on.

I'll give a very slight advantage to it for double the price.

F-18 comes with American laser targeting system and HMD which Rafale don't. Though Qatar is getting (&American laser targeting system) Israeli HMDS just like India.

Without that in a WVR Advantage F-18 . ( And we had to pay extra for Israeli HMDS one of the reason the cost of Rafale rose from 109 mn dollar to 160-170 mn dollar )

Yes Rafale is more agile and have better thrust to weight ratio but F-18 can get Improved F 414 with around 20 kn Inc in wet thrust .

And all this is under 80 mn dollar half the price we are paying for Rafale. That's why Rafale isn't being selected by many countries despite performing better.

Case closed.

That’s all there is. The Growler is a powerful jammer platform that outputs very powerful jamming. It cannot spoof, actively cancel and penetrate air Defence systems like the rafale. It does not have dedicated data processing units built into it do this job. The growler is a glorified brute force jammer. If that was the case, why don’t they send in growlers for every attack mission into contested air space with other fighters. The growler is not meant for penetrating air defenses. It’s meant to protect its carrier fighter escort group by jamming incoming missiles. It’s role is not meant to aid in evading detection. Whereas the rafale is designed to evade detection altogether.

Regarding BVR missiles, if you’re saying 120D is superior then o meteor, that is very very incorrect. Meteor is an active Ramjet/SFDR missiles. The speed,accuracy and effectiveness within its claimed operational range will be far superior just because of the ramjet tech. It will be way more faster in reaching its range limit with variable throttle speed to compensate for evasive maneuvers by the target. This is something that the 120D will not do . The 120D boasts of longer range. That’s all. The effective range found very well be 2/3rds of that. Remember how the long range of the 120C proves ineffective when trying to shoot down a sukhoi last year?


If you’re saying we’re paying extra for the HMDS alone, you’re wrong again. We’re paying for a lot more than that. And everything indicates to the notion that these 36 aircrafts are for nuclear deterrence primarily. All said and done, it’s agreeable that French aircraft are slightly expensive. But they’re effective, comes with no strings, and offer better capability than its counterparts.
Yes, now: Case Closed.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Order from whom ?

They are buying older one to cannibalize for spare parts to keep the one with airframe life left to use operational. French jet means spare parts will come from France at premium cost.

That’s correct. Which is why, when placing a large order, local production is a must. With transfer of tech to reduce spare parts locally.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Rafale in ladakh