Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Nose of IAF Rafale jets (pic 1& 2) compared with the nose of French military's Rafale jets (pic 3). Indian pics courtesy of
@VishnuNDTV





@BON PLAN @Tactical Frog will you please explain the difference between the two aircraft sensors?

Thanks in advance

Good question !
The indian jets are ready for F4.2.... (you jaut have to wait the developpment phase i 2024 more or less). so the 2 small "doors" on each side of the nose may be to add some goodies now or in a near future (AESA conformal array? seems a little bit too small).
The Rafale ready for F4.2 are to be delivered to the french forces In 2022+.
India has the most modern Rafale of the world so far.

 

[Flying Dagger]

F18 is 15% cheaper.
Rafale disponibility is higher
Rafale load and range are higher
Interoperability : Rafale is fully NATO compatible. It is possible to adapt AMRAAM, AIM9X, Harpoon, AARGM.... the problem is not technically, it is financially.
American supply : good by Make in India ! And ask Egyptian and UAE if they were free to use their F16 in Lydia in 2011.....
So indeed, it's just a political and independance choice. but what a choice !

More than 15% . Lifetime cost will be much lower.

Indeed a financial issue to spend more for getting less.

Even French will toe American line if a real sanction comes on us. The only fighter jet which will be unaffected is Sukhoi and Mig 29 from it whether we explode nuke or attack porks in west.

And yes at the end it's all politics finally you said that. IAF is hesitant abt American fighter jet while IN is little bit positive and politicians don't want to go that far right now.

But Rafale deal shouldn't be stretched much for IAF. 36 more and done there won't be any substantial TOT and we will be dependent heavily on French side to maintain them.

And since engine development is out of question with Snecma , unreasonable.

 

[Tridev123]

The Chinese developed fighter aircrafts are under-powered for their own AESA radars according to some youtuber analysis :-

Good for us if true. I don't think a lot of information is available on the capabilities of Chinese AESA radars for fighter aircraft. But I believe that they should be behind the Americans and Europeans and possibly ahead of the Russians. After all the Americans invented the AESA radar.

India unfortunately has very poor intelligence on China. I don't believe our R&AW has been successful in penetrating Chinese society to collect good intelligence on the PLA and the Chinese military industrial complex. Almost all intelligence on new Chinese weapons is provided by the US to India.
In the light of the latest developments on the border much more attention should be given to China. We have technical intelligence through space assets like observation satellites but lack human intelligence.

I believe even if their new planes like J10C, J11 possess AESA radars their capabilities would be inferior to the French AESA radar on the Rafale. Unless there is evidence to the contrary I will hold that view.

 

[Tridev123]

Over all F 18 is cheaper. American jets have longer airframe life in comparison to European. Add interoperability with Quad and most important you will have a robust American supply line to back you up. It's the politics which is an issue though Rest Babu log will decide.

I am not anti American but I think the Americans are offering their planes quite late to India. They offered us the F20 Tigershark a couple of decades ago but refused to sell the F16 at that time.
The F16 even now is a good aircraft especially the latest versions but how can India buy a plane which the Pakistanis know inside out. I think the US should not try to sell the plane to India.
The F18 has not been sold to either Pakistan or China and is a good twin engine plane but is almost in the same weight class as the twin engine Rafale. Their capabilities are not very far away from each other. Having already bought the Rafale for the Air Force it makes sense to have commanality of aircraft w. r. to the naval requirements. We should avoid having too many types of aircraft. But I am not ruling out an F18 buy. It could be a political buy to send a signal to the US that we trust them.

India presently does not have any 5th generation stealth aircraft and the US F35 is a good prospect. The US should not insist on a F16 buy as a precondition and offer us the F35 under good terms. Everybody would agree that India is not just another nation but a 1.3billion peopled subcontinent. We rightfully deserve special treatment from Washington. I see bright prospects for the F35. Hope the Americans offer it before the Russians get their act together on the Su57 and succeed in creating a good 5th generation plane. Because then they will try to sell it to India.

 

[BON PLAN]

More than 15% . Lifetime cost will be much lower.

Indeed a financial issue to spend more for getting less.

Even French will toe American line if a real sanction comes on us. The only fighter jet which will be unaffected is Sukhoi and Mig 29 from it whether we explode nuke or attack porks in west.

And yes at the end it's all politics finally you said that. IAF is hesitant abt American fighter jet while IN is little bit positive and politicians don't want to go that far right now.

But Rafale deal shouldn't be stretched much for IAF. 36 more and done there won't be any substantial TOT and we will be dependent heavily on French side to maintain them.

And since engine development is out of question with Snecma , unreasonable.

SH18 is in the 75 $ million each. maybe more.
Rafale is in the 95€ miilion each, with 20% VAT. so 76 € million without VAT (export case), so 89 $ million.

Spend more, YES, for getting less NO. SH18 as F21 will never be make in India. Maybe some bolts and nuts (and doors for HAL )

False. An exemple : after the Indian nuclear US ban, France didn't follow.

No substancial TOT : you (and I) don't know the exact ToT the french are ready to give. But one sure thing : absolutely no US ToT.

 

[Poseidon]

I am not anti American but I think the Americans are offering their planes quite late to India. They offered us the F20 Tigershark a couple of decades ago but refused to sell the F16 at that time.
The F16 even now is a good aircraft especially the latest versions but how can India buy a plane which the Pakistanis know inside out. I think the US should not try to sell the plane to India.
The F18 has not been sold to either Pakistan or China and is a good twin engine plane but is almost in the same weight class as the twin engine Rafale. Their capabilities are not very far away from each other. Having already bought the Rafale for the Air Force it makes sense to have commanality of aircraft w. r. to the naval requirements. We should avoid having too many types of aircraft. But I am not ruling out an F18 buy. It could be a political buy to send a signal to the US that we trust them.

India presently does not have any 5th generation stealth aircraft and the US F35 is a good prospect. The US should not insist on a F16 buy as a precondition and offer us the F35 under good terms. Everybody would agree that India is not just another nation but a 1.3billion peopled subcontinent. We rightfully deserve special treatment from Washington. I see bright prospects for the F35. Hope the Americans offer it before the Russians get their act together on the Su57 and succeed in creating a good 5th generation plane. Because then they will try to sell it to India.

Given the US is ready to sale F-35s to even (Singapore,UAE), it makes no sense why they haven't offered it to India.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Given the US is ready to sale F-35s to even (Singapore,UAE), it makes no sense why they haven't offered it to India.

Why ?

Didn't we bought S-400 the moment we did that F-35 was almost off the chart may be later if things change dramatically you may be offered.

But unlike F-18/16 F-35 will come with Full on USA string. We don't want that I guess unless very desperate.

Singapore is an American ally infact UAE is a big buyer of American weapons since decades.

With the teen series we can workaround with help of Israel but F-35 mean always tied up with American dream.

 

[Flying Dagger]

SH18 is in the 75 $ million each. maybe more.
Rafale is in the 95€ miilion each, with 20% VAT. so 76 € million without VAT (export case), so 89 $ million.

Spend more, YES, for getting less NO. SH18 as F21 will never be make in India. Maybe some bolts and nuts (and doors for HAL )

False. An exemple : after the Indian nuclear US ban, France didn't follow.

No substancial TOT : you (and I) don't know the exact ToT the french are ready to give. But one sure thing : absolutely no US ToT.

Rafale costed us 91 million Euro (Vanilla Sky)

Then addons like Elbit HMDS etc costed more.

Life cycle cost / upgrade etc will cost lot less for F-18.

What is the airframe life of Rafale in comparison to F-18s for sea and airforce versions ?

Fact: French will toe the American line that's for sure. We have seen it in case of mistral naval vessels. Politics is unpredictable.

No one is going to give anything serious spare parts /overhaul maintenance etc need to be done here that's it rest it's just the production standard which will be raised and will help Indian industries.

 

[LDev]

An F-35 with the IAF would have enabled the IAF to knock out all the S-300 and HQ-9 sites in Tibet using their stealth to come within 100 km of the target then launch eight GBU-39 Small Diameter Bombs ( SDBs ) which can glide 110 km from altitude and have a CEP accurate enough to target the radar and launchers of the PLAAF SAM systems. It would also enable the SDBs to be used to target PLAGF artillery positions which are typically placed in a grid pattern with a distance of at least a 100 meters between individual artillery pieces and then knock out an entire artillery emplacement. And if stealth was not a requirement for every mission then external stores carried would result in 3x the number of SDBs or external carriage of the JASSAM-ER cruise missile which has a range of 1000 km, double the range of the Scalp on the Rafale. 36 F-35s would have ensured total IAF domination of the air space in Tibet in 24 hours. But as everybody has pointed out, there are political considerations to be weighed.

 

[omaebakabaka]

An F-35 with the IAF would have enabled the IAF to knock out all the S-300 and HQ-9 sites in Tibet using their stealth to come within 100 km of the target then launch eight GBU-39 Small Diameter Bombs ( SDBs ) which can glide 110 km from altitude and have a CEP accurate enough to target the radar and launchers of the PLAAF SAM systems. It would also enable the SDBs to be used to target PLAGF artillery positions which are typically placed in a grid pattern with a distance of at least a 100 meters between individual artillery pieces and then knock out an entire artillery emplacement. And if stealth was not a requirement for every mission then external stores carried would result in 3x the number of SDBs or external carriage of the JASSAM-ER cruise missile which has a range of 1000 km, double the range of the Scalp on the Rafale. 36 F-35s would have ensured total IAF domination of the air space in Tibet in 24 hours. But as everybody has pointed out, there are political considerations to be weighed.

Lot of claims brother.....its a good plane but not that mythical. Single engine planes are not good in that terrain. We should have gotten more Rafales by now then that would give us a huge advantage in air. We match pretty well even now.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Lot of claims brother.....its a good plane but not that mythical. Single engine planes are not good in that terrain. We should have gotten more Rafales by now then that would give us a huge advantage in air. We match pretty well even now.

It has a gigantic engine dude with thrust more than Rafale's two engine combined.

It's just that USA isn't selling it to us. And even if they did they'll tie the whole plane with strings.

 

[omaebakabaka]

It has a gigantic engine dude with thrust more than Rafale's two engine combined.

It's just that USA isn't selling it to us. And even if they did they'll tie the whole plane with strings.

Its t/w is worse if I remember correctly than Rafale, a bit better at half tank but its combat radius is bad in general and in high altitude it would be even worse.

 

[LDev]

Lot of claims brother.....its a good plane but not that mythical. Single engine planes are not good in that terrain. We should have gotten more Rafales by now then that would give us a huge advantage in air. We match pretty well even now.

It's a combination of the plane and the munitions. Nobody else has the equivalent of the SDB or the follow on the SDB 2. And for all the claims of subsonic cruise missiles that others have, the JASSM-ER with it's 1000 km range has even been integrated with the F-16. And even if it's stealth is not broadband, it is good enough IMO alongwith it's ASQ-239 EW system, which will be at least on par with Spectra if not superior, to enable the F-35 to come within range to launch it's stand off weapons. 8 SDBs carried in the internal weapons bay or a total of 24 if carried internally and externally can wipe out a collection of very significant targets. The HAMMER kit for the Rafale will enable precision targeting but the big question is whether Spectra is good enough to allow the Rafale to come within the 70 km HAMMER stand off range at altitude or 15 km at low altitude from an HQ-9 or S-300 battery both of which have 200 km SAM missiles. And while Scalp has a good range, it is a single shot expensive proposition i.e. it will not be useful nor cost effective e.g. in knocking out artillery positions.

 

[omaebakabaka]

It's a combination of the plane and the munitions. Nobody else has the equivalent of the SDB or the follow on the SDB 2. And for all the claims of subsonic cruise missiles that others have, the JASSM-ER with it's 1000 km range has even been integrated with the F-16. And even if it's stealth is not broadband, it is good enough IMO alongwith it's ASQ-239 EW system, which will be at least on par with Spectra if not superior, to enable the F-35 to come within range to launch it's stand off weapons. 8 SDBs carried in the internal weapons bay or a total of 24 if carried internally and externally can wipe out a collection of very significant targets. The HAMMER kit for the Rafale will enable precision targeting but the big question is whether Spectra is good enough to allow the Rafale to come within the 70 km HAMMER stand off range at altitude or 15 km at low altitude from an HQ-9 or S-300 battery both of which have 200 km SAM missiles. And while Scalp has a good range, it is a single shot expensive proposition i.e. it will not be useful nor cost effective e.g. in knocking out artillery positions.

Didn't Spectra block S-300 in one of the excercises with Czech? There is a general consensus that spectra is one of the best out there if not best....some secret swiss comparison tests also revealed the superiority of Rafale. Spectra does its jamming or spoofing by being smart not necessarily with power. One just can't expect magic out of any equipment, its the experienced pilot and planners that knows how to use a tool to get the job done.

 

[LDev]

Didn't Spectra block S-300 in one of the excercises with Czech? There is a general consensus that spectra is one of the best out there if not best....some secret swiss comparison tests also revealed the superiority of Rafale. Spectra does its jamming or spoofing by being smart not necessarily with power. One just can't expect magic out of any equipment, its the experienced pilot and planners that knows how to use a tool to get the job done.

Spectra capabilities are not known at all, it's very secretive. It is reputed to be very good. But it has never been tested in battle e.g. there are reports of Israeli Air Force F-35s flying over Syria, supposedly immune to Syrian Air Force S-300 radars; in fact the Russians also have the S-400 system at their Khmeimim base. Nothing similar has happened with Rafales. In Libya the Rafales faced a 3rd tier SAM system with the Turkish forces. So I maintain that the true test of the Rafale/Spectra combination will be if it is able to target and knock out PLAAF HQ-9/S-300 batteries in Tibet.

 

[omaebakabaka]

Spectra capabilities are not known at all, it's very secretive. It is reputed to be very good. But it has never been tested in battle e.g. there are reports of Israeli Air Force F-35s flying over Syria, supposedly immune to Syrian Air Force S-300 radars. Nothing similar has happened with Rafales. In Libya the Rafales faced a 3 tier SAM system with the Turkish forces. So I maintain that the true test of the Rafale will be if it is able to target and knock out PLAAF HQ-9/S-300 batteries in Tibet.

There was an excersie with czechs and Rafale with spectra blocked s-300 (granted a bit of older version) but s-300 failed to paint it and the reason was spectra. Syria airspace is not contested.....the only accurate report about F-35 is that it was used in Iraq to take out some iraqi militia....F-35's are not going to be used in Syria for the simple reason to hide its signature from Russians and there is absolutely no need to do that for Israel....its faux reports.

 

[LDev]

There was an excersie with czechs and Rafale with spectra blocked s-300 (granted a bit of older version) but s-300 failed to paint it and the reason was spectra. Syria airspace is not contested.....the only accurate report about F-35 is that it was used in Iraq to take out some iraqi militia....F-35's are not going to be used in Syria for the simple reason to hide its signature from Russians and there is absolutely no need to do that for Israel....its faux reports.

For the IAF in the context of the India China face off, it is not just a question of the Rafale protecting itself via Spectra. The PLAAF SAM threat is at least as great, if not more potent than it's fighter threat and this is acknowledged by retired IAF commanders interviewed by Nitin Gokhale and others. So for the IAF to dominate the air space it has to knock out the PLAAF SAM batteries. How useful will the Rafale be in this respect? The F-35 via it's stealth and munitions is designed for that kind of a mission.

 

[omaebakabaka]

For the IAF in the context of the India China face off, it is not just a question of the Rafale protecting itself via Spectra. The PLAAF SAM threat is at least if not more potent than it's fighter threat. So for the IAF to dominate the air space it has to knock out the PLAAF SAM batteries. How useful will the Rafale be in this respect?

Lets be clear that we are arm chair title holders.....so keep that in mind and use your own judgement as always to make sense out of something....

This terrain is not very favorable for AD to begin with.....too many heights and aircrafts have all sorts of tricks to evade them. Modern AD is not proven at these heights....so expect some surprizes in AD performance....anti-radar missiles and the EW (primarily) would go a long way. I do not think there will be air superiority from either side. once you bring sam batteries in arty range then its game over. Aircraft can't do that much damage unless they have superiority which is unlikely

 

[omaebakabaka]

It has a gigantic engine dude with thrust more than Rafale's two engine combined.

It's just that USA isn't selling it to us. And even if they did they'll tie the whole plane with strings.

I agree its got the best engine for a single engine plane, but single engine or light to heavy mix aircraft paradaigm (2:1 ratio) sorta fell out in practice especially among major airforces. With all the sensors and modern tech, the cost between light and heavy is also not that wide. Cost was a major factor before for light to heavy mix paradigm. I think US will make it work with F-35 but hard sell for India like requirements when costs are taken into consideration. May be used as special forces but that means inheriting full costs maintenance,training e.t.c

 

[Flying Dagger]

Light and heavy or medium aren't decided based on single or twin engine configuration.

Both Rafale and F 35 falls under medium category if we are going by MMRCA . With F-35 engine upgrade already planned out.

The cost of F-35 A is less than 80mn dollar while a Rafale cost 91 million Euro plus add on charge which come pre-installed on F-35.